breaking the N chain

[Wildflower]

Hi everyone,

This is my first posting to the site, but I've been reading the posts of others for a while now.  My life has already changed so much since I've been able to use 'narcissism' as a tool to make sense of the surreality of my childhood, and it's been so helpful to hear that others have had experiences as crazy and disorienting as mine.

But as much as I have suffered from the effects of an N parent, my mother has suffered so much more.  My grandmother is a classic narcissist in the sense that she has violent outbursts, is extremely manipulative, and demands attention at all times and in any form (for years I called it the black-hole effect because being near her meant losing yourself completely and it would take at least two hours to recover from each visit).

Unlike my grandmother, my mother is not hostile or mean, and she's not 100% manipulative, but she is trapped in her own pain and reality.  It seems that her main strategy for dealing with her own childhood abuse has been to hide behind helplessness and depression.  The problem is that she's gotten to a point where she's having trouble holding a job or really functioning in society, and all of those bad N tendencies or self-defense mechanisms are allowing her to continue justifying her downward spiral.

Things have gotten so bad that others have had to step into her life, myself included, to try to help her pay the bills and make it through the next month, but we've all gotten to the point where it's obvious that our help is simply allowing her to continue her destructive behavior.  And none of us knows how to help her, really.  She needs to be seeing a therapist who has the professional training to help her work through her pain and to learn new life skills, but she's fallen so far down that she hardly has enough to live on - much less pay for therapy.  What help I have to offer is limited, because for me to tell her that I know what she's going through is to ask her to face how she has passed on the abuse to me (though, as it turns out, my father is also a narcissist, so we talk about the damage he's done instead).

So I'm wondering if anyone out there has had any success with trying to find help for N's.  At least, children of N's who are stuck and can't find their way out.  It's getting to the point where it may be possible to declare her unfit to take care of herself - but even if that happens, how can we get her the help she needs?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

And to all of you learning to focus for the first time, take heart - and go easy on yourself.  You've already had so much thrown upon you.

Wildflower

[rosencrantz]

Hi Wildflower - What a pretty name - and welcome.

My thought on this is that your mom is probably not an N but an ACON and an abused wife of an N.

I realise this gets complicated if you are an ACON, too!!!  But I'd define your situation as 'daughter of an N father and an ACON mother'.

ACONs are not without N traits but it does constitute a different constellation of pain and ways of thinking about and dealing with life.  And there are a variety of ACONs, too!!!  Or perhaps it all comes down to different ways of sacrificing self in order to meet/rebel against meeting the needs of the Ns in our lives.  Some of us 'take charge' (like you are doing and as I do, too) and some of us 'destroy ourselves' and descend into helplessness (after all, whatever we do is wrong and bad and useless according to the Ns in our lives so life becomes pretty hopeless).

Your mum has certainly sacrificed her 'self' - she feels worth so much 'less' (worthless) than anyone else.  She feels that she's just not worth doing anything for.  

I don't know the answer - how do you help someone regain self-esteem and find a point in living when they've been tortured by Ns all their lives and found no way out.  Some would say 'tough love' - they'll only come up smelling of roses after they've been in the pig shit long enough and decided for themselves that they don't like it.

You know something of what it's like for her as an ACON(M) because of the experience you had at the hands of an ACON(D) - and therefore you have a lot in common and perhaps it would help to talk in those terms (her mother, your father) rather than about the different experiences you had as daughter/wife of your father/her husband - ???  

The reason I think your mom is an ACON rather than an N is that she isn't 'mean' like your grandmother (definitely an N!) and I don't think Ns create Ns (otherwise you'd be an N, too and that doesn't come across in your writing).  I'm not suggesting that you haven't suffered as a result of her inability to mother you in ways you would have preferred but someone did something OK for you at some stage otherwise you wouldn't have the compassion you are expressing now.

Look out for your own tendency to 'rescue' people.  

Well, that's just my 'take' on things (as the daughter of a 'distant' father and N mother).  Hope it helps.
R

[Wildflower]

Hi Rozecrantz,

Thanks for welcoming me!  

And thanks so much for your suggestion that my mother is an ACON and not an N.  I've been struggling for months trying to figure out where she fits in a sea of Ns that is my family so that I can better understand how to help her (if that's possible) and how to help myself.  And you're so right to point out my tendency to rescue people.  Growing up, I was her mother/therapist/roommate, and it's difficult to let go of this overwhelming feeling of responsibility for her, even when I know that it hurts me in many ways.  That's why I'm trying to find resources that are designed to help people with mental illness (in her case, severe depression, but even better would be ACON support) so that she can continue on her path towards emotional healing and independence while I continue on my own path. She's made a few steps in the right direction (like cutting off contact with her mother), but she has a long way to go, and she's quickly running out of resources.

There most certainly was someone who did something OK for me.  I consider myself fortunate that my mother not only divorced my father quickly (they were only married for a couple of years), but she started dating a normal, healthy man when I was about 2, and he took care of me (in the most healthy of parental ways) until I was 8.  Losing him was absolutely devastating in so many ways, and I ended up burying my memories of him deep down inside - out of reach and safe from harm.  It wasn't until a decade later that I was re-united with him, and boy did the floodgates open!  The past decade has been one long attempt to reclaim my life by shoving out all the bad stuff and replacing it with all the positive (and sane) memories and lessons he gave me.

By the way, I want you to know that it was your message about your mother's faked suicide attempt that caught my eye and brought me into this forum, and I want to thank you for sharing that.  My grandmother has been on her 'death bed' for years, but I think she's really competing with my grandfather, who has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's (can you believe she actually tries to be more forgetful than he is???  It makes me furious to see the way she treats him).  And a couple of years ago, my father left two messages on my answering machine over the course of a month threatening to commit suicide - claiming that I had ruined his life.     I think the most difficult aspect of dealing with these "crises" is finding the strength to believe in yourself even when you know others (and sometimes even your own heart) may think you're being cold and cruel to ignore such pleas for help (a.k.a - need for attention and emotional blackmail).  

Oh, and thanks for the Four Agreements posting.  Very wise advice!

Wildflower

[Anonymous]

Hi Wildflower and welcome,

Are there any mental health clinics near where your mother lives? A phone call to a local community centre might get you started in the right direction, or an internet search. I'd say firstly that your mother definitely needs professional diagnosis. Whether she's an N or an Acon and/or has some mental illness requiring medication or possibly hospitalisation, this really can only be assessed by a professional. If she's reluctant to seek professional help, then you need to get throught to her that the support you can offer is limited, and be firm. You need to discuss with her what happens when your resources have dried up as well. She'll be in a worse position and unfortunately, so will you. I admire the love and compassion you have for your mother, and the tremendous understanding and support you are giving her. Alongside that you also have a repsonsibility to preserve your own situation. I would get on the phone and stay there till I found an organisation that can set aside someone to see her, or both of you. If you explained the story as you have explained here I'm sure you'd get results. I had to do this for a family member, and that family member is now on medication and being home visited by a counsellor. The diagnosis was much more serious than we ever expected, and had we not got the professionals involved I shudder to think where events may have led us. That was our gloomy experience, but now our family member is functioning much better than before and we can see light at the end of the tunnel. If we had of just tried to deal with it ourselves we never would have dealt with the real problem, just the surface. Sometimes reputable church groups like the Salvation Army are a good place to start as well. They often have affiliated services, where you can access professional counselling for free.

Your situation sounds very taxing and heartbreaking, and I wish you and your mother all the best. Also, don't neglect your own needs. You too have suffered and need support also.

Guest

[rosencrantz]

Wildflower - Here's a 'high five' for you!!

Perhaps your mom could do with reading some of the posts on this forum.  It wakes us up and gives us hope when we realise that others have had or are having the same kind of experiences.

I'm so glad that my posts have been useful.  Thank you very much for letting me know. I enjoyed the warm glow!!!

I begin to think that if someone tells you that you've ruined their life, it's a good sign - something to measure your own sanity and healthy boundaries by!!     My mother recently tried it on some more by saying she'd now realised that her 'nervous breakdown' was all my fault (which nervous breakdown, what are we talking about?!).  

I've just realised that I'd normally be trying to establish the 'facts' - and she'd be squirming around, not wanting to be pinned down, turning the English language into a chameleon instead of a means of communication - and I'd be driven nuts, thinking I'm going mad as the world turns upside down and inside out again.  Shiver!

But this time I just stopped her dead.  I can't remember the words but I know I just stopped her going there.  

So, yes - 'congratulations' on the phone calls from your Dad - and welcome to the club of the hard-hearted Hannahs!  It's not without compassion for them that I say 'long may we resist their blackmail and manipulation'.

If I have a piece of advice, it would be to focus on yourself and sorting out your own life first and not allow your mother's situation to be a distraction.  It doesn't work any other way and my intuition is that, at heart, she wouldn't want you to do otherwise.
R

[Wildflower]

Hi Guest - It’s really very encouraging to hear that you were able to reach your family member and get him/her the help he/she needed.  I think that’s partly what I needed to hear – that there is hope and help out there.  Through a little internet research, I’ve found out about a clinic near her that offers a wide range of community mental health services, so hopefully she qualifies for some.  The church/Salvation Army idea is one that hadn’t occurred to me, so thanks.  I’ll pursue that avenue as well.  She has been resistant to therapy recently and she has a million excuses for not going (too expensive, she’s been in therapy before but it hasn’t worked, etc).  Now, however, I think she may be at rock bottom, or close to it, which is terrible to watch but perhaps it’ll be a good opportunity to get her turned around.

Oh, Rosencrantz. I know that vertigo well.  The last time I tried to pin my father down to facts was the first time I was able to witness his entire arsenal of counter-attacks, and boy was it scary.  But also a bit of a relief.  When he finally ran out of excuses and tacks and had to resort to claiming that my step-mother and I couldn’t understand because we weren’t men -  I just started to laugh and said that was enough.  I had to go.  Oy.  Now I leave the instant I feel that strange shift in reality.  Of course he begs me to stay and promises he’ll behave and then seconds later throws a tantrum because he knows I might not come back next time.  But at least by that point, I’m out the door.  Sometimes I wish I could take my step-mother with me, though.

I’m really trying to keep a balance between going forward with my life while helping my mother toward the light, and of course, she needs to find her own way out in order for it to be really meaningful.  But you may be right that, deep down, she might not want to feel that she’s making things any harder for me.  Something to think about.

Wildflower

[rosencrantz]

Perhaps I should share that I was desperate for my mother to have help and support, too, but what I've learnt from the professionals and my own experience over the past few months is that

1.  I'm acting out of my own guilt (whose needs are these for her to 'have help' - mine!) and my desire not to have to take the massive burden I can see being created (I don't have to anyway - I am not responsible for my mother, she alone is responsible for herself).

2.  My mother can't help using the whole situation to manipulate others rather than improve her situation

3.  The more you 'do' for someone else, the more you 'de-skill' them.

4.  People are responsible for their own choices.

5.  You can take a horse to water, you can offer it champagne, you can offer it a choice of ten different sources of plain, organic rain, but if it's not ready, it won't drink.  

6.  Nobody does anything until THEY are ready.

7.  We make them feel more guilty and wretched by showing them that they could be better if they'd only 'try'.

8.  OUR solutions are not THEIR solutions.

9.  The more of their time you occupy with thinking about what WE want them to do, the less time they have to devote to working out what THEY will do.

10.  Can't think of any more

It would have been too easy for my mother to rebel against the help that was brought in via her doctor and social services if she hadn't taken the responsibility of asking for it.  

I really struggled with that one as I could see her sinking.  She had recriminated with me for years for one single action taken in the past to try to get help for her so that caused a lot of uncertainty - and do I really know what's best???  So-called 'help' can be just as damaging (One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest/Family Life etc).  By what right do I decide what's right for her???

I resolved the (my!) impasse by putting together a big folder with everything in it I could find that might be helpful for her.  I typed it up and put it all in a ring binder.  Not enough to overwhelm, but enough clearly sorted and labelled ("If you need X, phone here").  It took a long time to make it succinct enough!!! but it meant that whatever distress she was in, she'd be able to get who she needed when she needed it if she decided to use it and ask for help.  As far as I know she hasn't touched it - oh, once!  And she managed to make a catastrophe of it.  (See, she said!!).  

But who knows when it might come in useful and what need it maybe fulfils...I simply try to keep my own expectations out of the way  (But, surprisingly, I got huge kudos from Social Services who thought I was wonderful and could they use it for their own clients- what a turn up for the books!!!!!  Perish the thought that my own mother would say thank you!!)

As it turned out, my mother asked her GP to visit, he brought in a  psychiatric visiting nurse, I withdrew for a couple of days to lick my wounds, she threatened suicide and it all moved on from there.  She now has a support network.  The mistake I made 30 years ago was to hold her hand during a crucial five minute doctor's visit, and nobody else ever saw a need to stay involved (Your daughter's here so everything is alright then, isn't it!).  But that was a ten-ton destructive burden on me and you could say it wasted 30 years of HER life, too...

WE might not want to live our lives in 'that' way (whatever it is) but they have a right to live life in any way they choose.  I want sanity, precision, financial affairs to be organised properly, bills paid - but she wants chaos and confusion and to create it in every interaction she has with every shop assistant, bank manager, etc.  It's a 'doh' moment when you realise she has a perfect right to live life that way and to 'enjoy' the consequences.  It gives her a sense of control.  (Being 'organised' gives ME a sense of control but I don't have a right to impose my solutions on HER!)

I've 'gone on a bit', haven't I!!  Sorry this is such a long post.  I guess you can tell that I feel passionately about the dangers (primarily for 'us') of too much involvement in someone else's recovery.  It took me such a long time to work it out.

At the moment, you probably feel you are banging your head against a brick wall as far as your mother is concerned.  You know, when it begins to hurt, we do have permission to stop!  
R

[Portia notloggedin]

Just catching up on my reading but had to stop to say: yes yes yes R! Very educational post above. The vital part about hand-holding was incredible. Such tiny actions = huge ramifications. Thanks for sharing all this...P