I have a question

[isittoolate]

hi all

Being I don't have hands on experience with this, Do Narcissists love their children? Just trying to get a handle on my grandchildren.

...unconditional love?
...extention of themselves love?
... just an object to control and from whom to recieve 'adulation'?
...any hate for getting attention?
...anything about divorced coouples taking the children for revenge, even if they don't love them?

Thanx
Izzy

[Hopalong]

Izzy,
I can't sleep.
Hope you'll forgive a really direct question:

Does your question have to do with your granddaughters' father?

If it does, it is running out of a familiar groove in your brain?

If that's the case, where has that groove led you to before?

Just a hunch, could be a waaaaaay wrong one. Please forgive me if so.

I think I'm (truly) guessing...that perhaps a difficulty in letting go of the sins of your N-ex-SIL is coming between you and being able to connect with your D and your grand-Ds in ways that feel safe for them.

I could be completely off base. If I am, please do say so. And then I'd happily think about the theoretical question you're asking.

love
Hops

[isittoolate]

Hi Hops

I wrote that because he has JUST taken the youngest child, son, from her, age 14, the same age as when he took the now 20 year old, who is now N-istic
and my perception is either revenge or an extention of him.

So it's just a new wrinkle in an old rag
love
izzy

P.S. Never bothered with the girl, 17

[GAP]

DEAR IZZY,

I WAS MARRIED TO A NARCISSIST AND RAISED BY NARCISSISTS....THE ANSWER IS: NO!  THEY AREN'T CAPABLE OF LOVE.  LOVE IS ALWAYS CONDITIONAL, THE CONDITION BEING IN ORDER TO "FEEL LOVE" YOU MUST BE IN THEIR NARCISSITIC CIRCLE. WHEN YOU ARE THE SUPPLIER OF GOOD FEELINGS TO A NARCISSIST YOU CAN THINK YOU ARE FEELING LOVE FROM THEM BUT YOU'RE NOT, YOU ARE JUST ALONG FOR THE NARCISSITIC HIGH.   WHEN YOU CROSS THEM OR REFLECT BAD FEELINGS ON TO THEM (GLANCE IN THE WRONG WAY, SAY SOMETHING THEY DON'T LIKE, MAKE A MEAL THEY THINK IS INFERIOR) ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE.  HENCE, ONCE YOU GET PAST THE PHASE WERE THEY SUCK YOU INTO THEIR CIRCLE....YOU ARE CONSTANTLY WALKING ON EGGSHELLS.  BECAUSE THE BEGINNING PHASE IS SO SPECIAL, YOU THINK YOU HAVE CAUSED THE PROBLEMS.

WHEN THE NARCISSIST GOES FOR CUSTODY IT IS SIMPLY TO MAKE HIMSELF OR HERSELF FEEL BETTER IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE FOR THE CHILD.  PEOPLE ARE ALL GOOD OR ALL BAD TO THE NARCISSIST, THE NARCISSIST TRULY BELIEVES THAT HIS OR HER EX SPOUSE IS EVIL.  THEY RECREATE THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE DIVORCE AND BELIEVE EVERY LAST DETAIL OF WHY THEY WERE THE VICTIMS INSTEAD OF THE ABUSER.  IF NARCISSIST EVER FACED WHO THEY WERE OR WHAT THEY DID TO OTHER PEOPLE THEY COULDN'T SURVIVE.  THEY CHOOSE TO RECREATE HISTORY, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT BELIEVES IT, IT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY SURVIVE.

I'M SORRY TO HEAR YOUR GRANDCHILDREN HAVE TO LIVE THRU A CUSTODY BATTLE,

GAP

[axa]

GAp & Izzy

No they do NOT love their children.  They do NOT love anyone.  Everyone is just an object.  my experience with XN is they are an object to control and where they can receive adulation.  I had a memory recently of saying to XN that I found his relationship with his daughter unhealthy and left me feeling uncomfortable.  They were talking one day and she was looking into his eyes smiling at him like someone in love rather than a father/daughter type of love.  I know there was nothing sexual going on but she was feeding him supply and he was lapping it up.  She was supply, supply, supply and he had programmed her to be an unending supply of it.  God it gives me the creeps just to think about it.

axa

[GAP]

Well put, the children are programmed to be supply.  My parents have programmed half of their middle age children to be supply and it is just sad to see.  If the child is not capable of being a supply(by no fault of their own but simply because they do not fit the N's needs or wants), that child's life is miserable.  Shortly before I filed for divorce we were meeting some of my friends for dinner (a rare occurrance, we mostly did what he wanted as a couple).  My N husband had been drinking, on the way to dinner I had chatted about the kids and their activities for the week.  We were the first to the restaurant and were sitting at the table facing each other.  Out of the blue my N says, "You are very attractive, people like you, you don't make me feel good."  He stood up, walked out and didn't come back.  Because he was drunk he was able to verbalize his N feelings, if you are not making me feel good, I have no use for you.  That sums up a narcissist.

That moment was a turning point for me.  It wasn't until many months later, when I read boods on narcissim that I was able to understand the significance of those words and truly make sense of my marriage and begin the healing.

[isittoolate]

Thanks Gap and axa

Just to set the record straight, I’ve had my N relationship and got out, so I know of their inability to love, but no children were involved.

My daughter has had hers and got out, divorced and had full custody of the 3 children (1996) There is/was no custody battle.

What her ex  had done was manipulate and brainwash the eldest son to go live with him. Age 14 and the law is…. at 14 the child can choose. It was heartbreaking. This one is full of himself and well on his way to being a full-blown N. now 20.

The daughter ‘hates’ her father. She is now 17, and still with her mother.

The youngest son has just now changed homes, at age 14; the ex has lured him away and will convert him as well.

So there will be this nest of 3 Ns living together, feeding off one another.

My take on it is revenge on their mother, and then manipulation to have 2 ‘objects’ to control, and to manipulate into adoring him, the father.

(The eldest was involved in a very newsworthy story 3 years ago and I could follow it on the Internet. He said his hero was his father. How disturbing to read.)

Izzy

[isittoolate]

Thanks CB,

From one-line messages from my daughter, and we are 2000 miles apart, I picked up that her ex and eldest son joined forces to take the youngest son away, a year ago. Daughter, for one week, did not know where he was,  but he wanted to come home and did,  3 days after she found out. She is not volunteering. After 10 years from the divorce, he is still messing up her life.

I believe they have again joined forces, now that the youngest is 14.

.....and all I can say/suspect is the her damned ex has told lies and stories to turn the boys against their mother and even against me---the old divide and conquer!
He's now 53, baldling, and no woman in his life for quite some time.

(I bought an new TV today, as  my 20-year old is on its way out. $70.00 to deliver, plus $40.00 to walk in the door and then an hourly rate to hook it up. I asked my salesman, sotto voice, if he would do it for $40.00 cash, and he agreed.)

Cheers
Izzy