How prevelent is this???

[Philski44]

Narcisists seem to be coming out of the woodwork since discovering the existence of this condition.  My neighbor across the street is classic.  A person in the 12 step program I know seems to have many of the symptoms.  My supervisor seems to have alot of N traites.  At one time I think that Philski even qualified.  

Have there been any studies done to determine an estimate of the population that may be N's as described here?  I know that 10% of all drinkers have a problem with alcohol and may qualify as an alcoholic.  Based on what I've noticed, seems like close to 10% of the people I run into qualify as a narcissist.  As with the alcoholic, there are an estimated four people severly affected by that persons drinking.  Is this about what it would be with ACON's?  Could it be this BIG of a problem in the country?  World?      

[Anonymous]

Hi Philski,

Try working amongst sales people. Whooah! I think classic N's are attracted to jobs where performing in front of others is a big part of the job. Politics, sales, acting, lawyers, the list goes on.

The top sales people, the biggest earners where I work in property and finance products are SO Narcissistic. I work on the HR side and it's really amusing when you understand the dynamics. And brother, are they a precious touchy lot. It's epidemic they say in the west and growing as a problem. One scientist or psychiatrist I read said that at the rate of the development of all the new disorders being discovered, by next century we'll all be mad.  

[rosencrantz]

If we all 'come from' a narcissistic state as children, then (philosophically speaking?) it's an issue of the development of human kind.

So it's less about how many are narcissistic but 'wow' how many aren't!!!

Little groups like ours are in the vanguard of making things better for the next generation and it will all have a knock on effect.  Better parenting, better understanding of what makes us all tick, etc will mean fewer and fewer 'active' 'all-out' narcissists in future.  Today, if you are an alcoholic then you know you are sick; a century ago I guess you were just a drunk in the gutter.  I am sure that narcissism will follow a similar trend.  (Don't forget - narcissism doesn't even 'exist' yet in Europe but look how much it's in the public eye in the States - and Europe tends to follow where you lead!!)

Everyone's narcissistic to some extent - healthy narcissism helps us function and look after our own interests (and escape the clutches of narcissists!!!) so you can't excape seeing narcissistic tendencies in other people.

I gather that there is a trend in the States to see everyone who puts themselves first as 'narcissists'.  I don't think that social selfishness is necessarily Narcissistic with a big N!  It's a choice. And it's a choice that requires everyone else around them to ensure that they have enough healthy narcissism to stick up for their personal interests, too.  (Would Ayn Rand be applicable here??)

But Narcissism with a big N and the closely related NPD are much more damaging.  It's actively destructive of the integrity of other people at the deepest level.

As those with NPD do not think they need 'help', it's difficult to put a figure on it as it's all but invisible.  It's the people they drive crazy who seek help - but they're usually busy taking responsibility for their own ills so you still don't get any figures.

Alice Miller makes quite interesting reading...
R

[Write]

I think there are certainly lots of narcissistic traits associated with social phenomena- and that these are not new, look at the way women and children have been treated down the ages.

But the personality disorder is a bit different: that narcissist is very badly damaged, and all attempts to help, change things, deal- they all come to no fruition. It's a matter of frustration, acceptance and eventually moving on for the onlookers because personal intimacy does not exist for the narcissist.

( The day after I told him our marriage was over and we had practicalities to deal with now only, my n h got up and said he had the best night's sleep for years )

Many of the narcissists people have had dealings with here are severely abusive besides their narcissism, some have substance abuse and mental health issues too.

Ayn Rand does extremely what most people do every day: splitting people and situations into the worthy and unworthy. That must be a strong human trait.

For some reason I am very sensitised to racism, and you know it is everywhere, people I never imagined have assumptions and prejudices based on the weakest experience; I think it is the narcissism in them which projects out their emotion onto someone else. Someone else must always be weaker or we ourselves are diminuished. That's narcissistic.

[Philski44]

Thanks for all the insightful responses.  What I gather is that this condition is similar to Codependency except at the other end of the spectrum.  I would imagine that many ACON have alot of codependent traites.  I know as a child with a narcissistic father I went to great extreams to get some sense of love and acceptance.  The best I got was emotional crumbs and the distinct feeling that there is a terrible flaw in me that is evidenced by a father that treats his son so poorly.  

So, as an adult I've had to address alot of my own codependent traites in order to stop putting myself through incredible pain and chaos in my life.  Developing healthy boundaries is slow in coming.  I'm really excited about the new hope that exists for me with the new information that this site has given me.  Same as in other areas of my life.  Seems like half the solution is getting info on an area of concern.  Without awareness of that area, choice and change is very restricted.  

Any other books or authors out there that offer info on NPD along with Alice Miller?  

Thanks....
Philski

[pandora]

as to prevalence of N's - this may be one of those situations where you buy a new car, and then all of a sudden are hyperaware of how many people own the same model.  

One side effect I have noticed is that as I learn more, I sometimes have this terrible insane fear-

 OMG! I MIGHT BE ONE!  And my therapist is just won't tell me for fear of inflicting severe Narcissitic injury!  

Anyone else have this?

[rosencrantz]

Yes!  

And the fact is that if you think you are, you're not!

It's the ones who never for a moment think they're possibly that fallible that are!

Got it??  
R

[Write]

One side effect I have noticed is that as I learn more, I sometimes have this terrible insane fear-

OMG! I MIGHT BE ONE!

this isn't narcissism I don't think for a minute! It's maybe that perfectionism which comes from a family where love is withheld and we grow into people who try very hard to be very good at everything. Often we succeed! Someone once sarcastically said to me ' slow down dear, let the mere mortals catch up!' which awoke me to the possibility that my perfectionist traits were not always useful.

I think I'm a bit more able to be fallible now...though I still find myself trying too hard sometimes. But I recognise it and can usually see that its in an unhealthy situation or one which reminds me too closely of childhood.

an eg. just came to mind: my family/ community often 'joked', but it wasn't really a joke, it was pouring scorn or mocking or not taking you seriously. As a child I'd get terribly frustrated that they couldn't ( or wouldn't ) see what I wanted them too, and they enjoyed the 'joke' of making me squirm not caring that I was getting terribly frustrated and upset. Even thirty years later I still get ultra-serious if someone tries joking about something I feel strongly about, it brings back such strong memories.

[Sally (sslichterj)]

Philski44: You touched on a worry of mine..only because it happened to me in therapy, and was the source of years of pain and confusion.

I got clean and sober in a world renowned treatment center 18 years ago. While there I recognized and worked on my CoDependency Issues and went to CoDa 12 Step Meetings for 15 years along with AA, NA. SLAA, and AlAnon and 20 years of one on one therapy.  

All of that helped  to stay alive while being in a relationship with an N who is now my ex-husband. BUT a really important point was missed in all of that work to change me. All of the recovery in the world was not going to help me get along with a Narcissist (my mother was also one).  There is an additional dynamic at work, I believe, that is not touched in recovery.  

I think those of us who have been hooked into an N have an addiction to the behavior of the Narcissist, which we hope to understand, and  we hope to find the key that will finally allow us to feel loved by them. And, the problem is no one is going to feel loved by a Narsissist ever.  But we keep hoping and trying.  And if we hope and try too long (as happened to me), we lose all sense of ourself and are lucky to get out alive from a N relationship.

So, I think probably children of N and those hooked into a N probably do have codepedency issues which have been developed trying to learn to cope with the N; but that is only part of the problem.  If the part that hooks someone specifically with an N isn't addressed then the dance with the N will continue until there is no soul left in the N's victim.

How to address the victim is, I think what this site is all about.  Knowledge of what the N does, thinks and is capable of is what will set those of us who have been the N's victims, free.  

By the way...I keep trying to log on and am told sometimes that my user name is taken..so I end up having to come on as a guest..Does anyone know who to correct that little problem?  Sally

[rosencrantz]

I had that logging on problem Sally - I never did solve it but assumed that I had forgotten the password I'd used to create the name with.  Perhaps Dr G might have a solution. R