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loving the self-absorbed

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pandora:
On another note, I just read the book "loving the self-absorbed" by Nina Brown, about strategies for coping with a partner with NPD or strong N traits.  

It actually is somewhat depressing, as the premise is that you should give up hope of them changing, and concentrate on strategies to protect yourself.  Much of that advice runs totally against the usual advice for improving marital communication - instead it is about establishing emotional distance and learning NOT to engage.  

It makes me wonder if one of the reasons my marriage became even more difficult over the past few months is that I began to communicate more openly and make more attempts to engage - evidently that can just feed the N and make his words and actions even more hurtful to you.  

I think the book is very well done, and the advice is probably right on.  However, it is making me question my marriage more than ever - I don't want to be putting up barriers for the next 30 years.  Those of you who are living with an N and can't leave or don't want to might find it very helpful.

seeker:
Hi Pandora,

Sounds like you handled the situation pretty well this morning.   :?


--- Quote ---the premise is that you should give up hope of them changing, and concentrate on strategies to protect yourself
--- End quote ---


This is it in a nutshell.  Your description of the conversation this a.m. looked to me like he was using any cards in his hand to get you back under control.  It's all an empty game to control resources and N supply.  

You might want to also read Controlling People by Patricia Evans.  She does a great job of portraying N and Npartners as a child with a teddy bear.  When "teddy" is good, teddy is held and/or put on the shelf to be ready for whenever the child needs it.  When "teddy" is bad, the child can rage and throw "teddy" against the wall, rip a nose off, without suffering any consequences.  Your H sounds like he cannot acknowledge or handle any consequences of his behavior.  The evidence of "otherness" like having a job or dressing the way you want, is reason to dismiss you in favor of other "toys".

Yes, it is depressing to contemplate a marriage or any relationship without  trust or open communication.  You hit the nail on the head.  Don't let him headtrip you about "having made your decision".  Because it's true, it is your choice to stay or go.  So what if he is trying to position you as the Bad Guy if you leave?  That is just for his own benefit.  If he needs to play Victim, who cares?  There are no historians writing this down.  You will know how it really played out.  You have your own truth, your own perspective, and know what it takes to make a relationship work the way you need it to.  Don't let him tell you what to think (or us, for that matter!  :wink: )  Peace, Seeker

pandora:
thanks seeker.  I was pretty emotional, but able to state my position.  I really don't think N gets it at all that I really would leave him.  But that is not my responsibility.

N just sent me an email straight from the Twilight zone, but that's another story.  He is trying to be nice, I guess.  Expresses disappointment that I am losing my will to try and that I have not really "met him halfway".  OMG!  

I talked with our therapist about what I read in the book - he said this is one case where couples therapy actually accentuates the problems.  He confirmed my growing feeling that each session gets more and more bizarre.  So even if I feel that I am the one going crazy, it's not true!  He is honest enough to tell me that there is almost no chance that N will change or improve, and that I need to decide if I can live with it or not.

So seeker, I think you are right and the ball is in my court.  I'll just have to get through the next few days with the aid of venting to this forum, and perhaps a few strong drinks.

Anonymous:
Pandora, you wrote:

"Much of that advice runs totally against the usual advice for improving marital communication - instead it is about establishing emotional distance and learning NOT to engage.

It makes me wonder if one of the reasons my marriage became even more difficult over the past few months is that I began to communicate more openly and make more attempts to engage - evidently that can just feed the N and make his words and actions even more hurtful to you...."

and

"I talked with our therapist about what I read in the book - he said this is one case where couples therapy actually accentuates the problems. "

This is quite interesting to me, b/c I had read some things about "bullies" for a while.  There are some major websites about bullying in the workplace, which is also called "mobbing," in England.   The authors call it "the serial bully."  Anyway, I have had bullies in my last two apartment complexes.  Also in workplace situations, almost all the ones I worked at.    And in grade school, too.

So the last place I lived, I had to put up with two bullies, essentially - the man downstairs, and the manager, who threatened to kick ME out b/c I complained about his harassment -- even though she knew about him, his reputation amongst the other tenants, his behavior and SHE had been harassed by him when she was a new manager!  She even told me that!

But still, she wanted us both (i.e. the bully and myself) to go to mediation.  But the Bully websites advise AGAINST going to mediation with a bully, for precisely the reasons you write above -- it gives them ammo to use against, YOU, and in NO WAY is helpful to you or to improving the situation. That is because the bully has no intention of communicating, or getting better communication, or being honest, when s/he goes in to the mediation session/s.  The bully is only looking to make themself look good, look willing to improve our situation, and look the VICTIM look bad by comparison to the victims greatness as a neighbor/boss/co-worker, or whatever they happen to be.

In that case, I refused to go to mediation b/c, I told the manager, "of professional advice against it," and also b/c the tenants organization had told me that this particular mgr had a reputatoin for kicking people out, after they went to mediation in good faith.  Obviously, the bully had not gone in good faith, and I knew that.

Does anyone think that "serial bully" and "narcissism" are similar, or the same?  Has anyone else read about serial bullies?  Or had experience being bullied by them?

Flo

Anonymous:
Flo, I think it was good advice not to go to mediation with a bully. Especially once you have established in your own mind that they definitely are a bully. I've had very similar advice that you had. The person who recommended to me not to go to counselling/mediation was the other person's therapist of all people. The reason that they gave was because they believed I was genuine and they also believed that the other person was disingenuous. Our situation was more of a personal nature, but the bottom line was that I was the more vulnerable one emotionally and physically at the time.

Because the other party did not have my or our best interests at heart it would only cause me tremendous pain and anxiety and place me in an even more vulnerable situation physically. This person was a fully paid up member of the NPD society, with a doctor's certificate to prove it.

I on the other hand was a limp wristed, lily-livered, co-dependant, dysfunctional pathetic supply source at the time. (quoting Vaknin's term, who I also have some difficulty with.) I never intended to become like this in that relationship, but I did. This was somebody who I loved immeasurably, believed in with all my heart and who hurt me deeply. When I was hurt he scoffed and ridiculed me for being weak, and I can see now that I was and he was right in that department. No more though.

But I believe from that experience and from being on the other side too where I have been called on since to help other close family members deal with 'serial bullies' that it is a form of narcissum or even NPD. What do you think? One day I think the experts will conclude that children who manage to, and get away with bullying other kids and bullying their way through school eventually grow up to be fully paid up members of the Narcissistic or even the NPD community.

Maybe it should be headed off at this stage, as small children, but I don't think the awareness is out there yet, in the general community. I think with the awareness growing in the global community of the effects of Narcisissum and NPD in the community as a whole it will unearth in the future a lot more concrete evidence to support the theory that the signs are obvious in childhood, to teachers and parents etc. I think they are obvious. What do you think?

Did you move out of that last place you lived willingly or were you 'forced' out? I know I read in one of your earlier posts that you have found a good place to live where you are really happy and it's a multi-cultural environment and where you even have jam sessions.

One of my children's teachers once told me that she thought the playground lunch-hour did more harm than good. She said that after her 24 years of teaching this was the firmest conclusion she'd come to. She said that in the classroom it was structured and superivsed and virtually no psychological damage from child to child was possible. But that in her experience children left unsupervised did immeasurable damage to each other. The damage usually caused by the same children. Because they can get away with it, without controls and adequate monitoring in place. That struck me, 'because they can get away it'. My, don't they change their tune when they are being observed, or called to account.

Imagine the bully building supervisor for example. Who's monitoring him in his fiefdom? No-one? Then try getting together with him into mediation. How could or would he ever admit to being a tyrant? He couldn't. He would lose his whole identity if he admitted that. And possibly find himself liable. That would be too catastrophic for him. What would he do then? No, he has to lean heavily on the "I'm misunderstood" and "Nobody knows how hard this job is for me" or "I'm only trying to be fair to all" crap. Or just plain lie and distort and re-write history. Oh how familiar!  

No, it's better if he blames you, and twists you and turns you, and manipulates your underbelly up for peircing. That is his 'modus operandi.' Unfortunately, if and when we find ourselves in less powerful roles with these types of people, the best thing we can do for our own self-preservation is to admit our limitations and move out and away, as far away from them as possible and find safer and hopefully happier ground.
With bullies that saying or poem applies so well, from St Francis or St Augustus or whomever,

'Accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.'

all the best Flo.

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