Author Topic: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety  (Read 2674 times)

gratitude28

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Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« on: February 07, 2007, 10:18:24 PM »
This has been on my mind for days now... I am the queen of the "poker face" and, for that matter, "poker existence," when I feel I need to retreat. Does this make sense to any of you here? When my family started in on their mean streaks... I turned off. Literally. I refused to give anyone the satisfaction of seeing me upset. I was a body with a mask. I am still that way with anyone I don't trust (which sometimes can be everyone). I often feel that letting someone see emotion in me will let them "get one over on me."
Does anyone relate????
Thanks for listening.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

gratitude28

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 11:06:05 PM »
I think it is a good thing for me sometimes too, Storm. It's just so weird to feel yourself actually "shut down." It's like someone flips a switch and I check out. (Again, all these awful cliches...). I have reached out to two people who mean so much to me... my husband and a girlfrien. And in both cases, writing how I felt about them scared me. When I sent the letter to my husband, I was ready to divorce him if he ever mentioned it. It sounds funny, but I was a basket case about that damned letter. I have a lot of acquaintances, but I rarely let anyone "in" either, storm. Especially if I've had even an inkling (intuition) that a person is not "real." Usually if I get that idea and try to override it, it turns out that the person was, indeed, a bad fit for me. I need to trust my instincts more.
OK, I am babbling now. Thanks for bringing up those ideas.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

gratitude28

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 11:08:33 PM »
I think it is a good thing for me sometimes too, Storm. It's just so weird to feel yourself actually "shut down." It's like someone flips a switch and I check out. (Again, all these awful cliches...). I have reached out to two people who mean so much to me... my husband and a girlfrien. And in both cases, writing how I felt about them scared me. When I sent the letter to my husband, I was ready to divorce him if he ever mentioned it. It sounds funny, but I was a basket case about that damned letter. I have a lot of acquaintances, but I rarely let anyone "in" either, storm. Especially if I've had even an inkling (intuition) that a person is not "real." Usually if I get that idea and try to override it, it turns out that the person was, indeed, a bad fit for me. I need to trust my instincts more.
OK, I am babbling now. Thanks for bringing up those ideas.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

gratitude28

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2007, 11:10:51 PM »
Thanks, Jac.
I hope I am being honest with myself now. It's hard to know sometimes.
And I am sorry I hurt you. And I am glad you are back.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

gratitude28

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2007, 05:47:51 AM »
Well, before you do pull your post... let me say that you are being very brave all around. That fear must be tremendous. Whenever I read about people who are stalked, or, and these often go together, are inthe type of escalating bad marriage, I always wonder how I would handle it. How do you ever get over that fear and feel safe again? I can't imagine
I don't know if someone could find you through a pic on the internet... I would think it wouldn't be traceable... but I know you can probably trace anything. And I can imagine the worry after hearing nothing about the pic... maybe they were embarrassed to admit they couldn't open it. I have done that before.  Recently my aunt sent me a pic and I couldn't open it. I asked her to send it again and i still couldn't open it, but I never told her.
(((((((((((storm))))))). No one should have to be afraid all the time.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

GAP

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2007, 07:15:14 AM »
Dear Beth
That is exactly what I do, shut down, don't react.  I have been on the receiving end of my familiy's rages and meaness all my life.  I have rarely reacted and fought back. As a very young child I knew reacting wouldn't help the situation.  I knew never to ask for what I wanted because I wouldn't get it.  I knew never to express my feelings or opinions because it wouldn't only make me vunerable. Unfortunately, I carry these unhealthy traits into adulthood.  They served me well in my dysfunctional marriage and the few times I let intimate feelings,  emotions or secrets be known to my husband he used them to humiliate me.  I can now be honest with friends I trust. 

I think the poker face is a sign of brilliance in young children that are in abusive homes.  I can't explain to people that don't have N parents or N husbands that explaining how you feel or how they hurt you is never going to give you any satisfaction or they may be nice in the moment only to throw it back in your face in the future.  My ability to shut down saved me, it took me to adulthood with some self esteem.  I  use to play the game in my head, if I was the Mom I would do this for me and when I had the chance to be the Mom to my kids I protected them, listened to them, loved them for who they were, didn't try to make them into what I wanted.  I didn't lose my ability to empathize or see right from wrong.

I'm glad you brought up this topic, my therapist said to me last week sometimes I think you just want to be invisible.  I didn't know what he meant but this poker face topic maybe what he was getting at.  The last time I was raged at by a family member I just wanted to disappear but instead I went into poker face mode.  I never put a name to it but I know what I do when faced with an uncomfortable situation.

GAP

dandylife

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2007, 03:05:11 PM »
I think in your case, Beth, you are describing "mental assertiveness".  I think it's a very healthy way of dealing with what you deal with. Here's a description from the wikipedia under 'emotiona detachment':


"Emotional detachment in the second sense above is a positive and deliberate mental attitude which avoids engaging the emotions of others. It is often applied to relatives and associates of people who are in some way emotionally overly demanding. A simple example might be a person who trains themselves to ignore the "pleading" food requests of a dieting spouse. A more widespread example could be the indifference parents develop towards their children's begging.

A more extreme form of this has been called "tough love," meaning letting someone go through a painful life experience without interference for the sake of its greater educational value. This can be an excruciating experience for loved ones, who must avoid the urge to step in and rescue the person from that pain (but thereby interfere with the loved one having a much-needed growing experience).

This detachment does not mean avoiding the feeling of empathy; it is actually more of an awareness of empathetic feelings that allows the person space needed to rationally choose whether or not to engage or be overwhelmed by such feelings."

Dandylife
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pennyplant

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2007, 06:46:13 PM »
I seem to be a mixture of being too transparent emotionally and shutting off when it gets way too hard.  I shut off when I feel extremely threatened or when something very bad happens like a death or accident.  When I do this I know intellectually that it is not good for me.  But it seems to be almost automatic.  I have no idea how I do this.  And I generally have a hard time flipping the switch back on.  I have to wait for myself to come back to life.  Or something happens in my life that seems unrelated and it triggers some kind of related emotions.

The worst time was after my father died.  Once I had to begin interacting with other people, I went into this mode that I describe as standing beside myself.  Every moment of every day for a very long time I felt off-kilter.  Odd.  My emotions seemed to have gone way below the surface.  It felt very strange.  Unhealthy.  It lasted for about a year and a half.

Prior to that, I once buried my emotions for about seven months.  I was a mail carrier and had to work outdoors in the worst of weather for about 5 or 6 hours of my ten hour day.  The weather scared me badly.  I was very worried about getting frostbite.  I worried about falling and getting seriously hurt.  I worried about getting heat stroke when it was 100 out.  I worried about my growing fatigue and exhaustion due to overwork in the elements.  But I purposely buried all of that because I had a goal of getting a different job when the time was right.  Which did happen.  But I am still uncovering emotions from that time period.  It really did something to me to bury my fear for that length of time.  Not healthy.

There are probably one or two other times in my life that I did this.  It was never a good thing to do in my opinion.  In general, though, my feelings are all over my face.  And it is very tempting for others to mess with me.  They can't resist.  It's like teasing a barking dog.  My emotions feed them and they get drawn in and can't leave me alone.  So, I tend to just walk off or stay away if possible.

I'm kind of mixed up just trying to explain it.  Maybe it is emotional immaturity on my part.

I don't think I'm doing the stoicism thing at all.  When I seem unemotional, it is because something in me decided to bury the feelings deeply, it happens automatically, and I have to play catch up later on when it gets triggered.  It sounds like the stoicism is a conscious choice and set of behaviors.  What I am doing is not conscious at all.  I'm aware of it but not controlling it.

I'm hard at work these days understanding myself and my emotions.  Mostly I let them have some freedom and I try to express them in a non-aggressive way.  A work in progress.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Hopalong

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2007, 09:40:50 PM »
What a powerful thread.

I got very quiet when I was mistreated by peers as a child, but I am sure the pain was all over my face. Once in h.s. a boy I was going out with said to my father, "Mr. H, that Hops is as hard to read as the Sunday comics."

I am so very sorry that you went through such a horrible experience and must deal with that awareness all the time, in a way that people who've never been terrorized don't have to. I can't imagine what that is like. I don't have much self-defense consciousness at all. More to the point, it touches a deep angry chord in me that someone felt the entitlement to do that to you and to your life.

Beth, PP, Gap...I think it was a great intelligence that taught you the "freeze posture" in self defense, when you were young and vulnerable. You knew intuitively that it was a way to avoid engaging the attention of the brutal. The hard part must be re-training yourselves so that you keep sensible safety radar, but lose the "overload reflex". It may be that strong emotions of any sort trigger the freeze. (Like the old game, Swing the Statue.) I am sure that in the intentional work you are doing, you are going to be able to thaw it. Without cracking.

CB, I'm so glad you're finding safety here. I know it will translate in your new life to 3-D too.

Thank you everyone for these posts.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

seastorm

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2007, 10:58:25 PM »
Storm, Gratitude......

How precious your feelings are. When I hear you talk about your fears and vulnerabilities it makes me like you more.  This is not babbling. Funny, just when you get going you think you are babbling.
I think stalking is like stealling your space in the world. It is theft and brutality.
The fear that it creates in the stalked person permeates their entire life.
I am so sorry this ever happened to you.

Sounds like a good armor to have ie. A stoic face. I could do with that. Lessons are in order.  Instead, I have one of those terribly tranparent faces that can't hide a thing. I think we need armor at times.
No wonder it is hard to trust. Just love yourself for who you are. Wounded, scared, shy, withdrawn whatever.   Something very very big has happened to you. No WONDER you have a few defences. I feel like sticking up for you.

Lots of love,
Sea storm

pennyplant

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2007, 12:24:18 PM »
When I was fourteen, something similar to stalking happened to me when two former friends turned on me.  It is not nearly as severe as what Stormy and others have endured.  But it had a terrible impact on me because of my age and the timing of certain other events in my life.  It seemed relentless too because my sister befriended these girls.  Therefore, I had to deal with them at school and in the classroom, but also in my home and car when my sister invited one of them over frequently and also got my mother to pick her up for a ride to school everyday.  And if I wasn't dealing with them in person, my sister would relay nasty messages and threats from them to me and she would tell them what I had done the night before at home so they could broadcast it and humiliate me at school in front of my other classmates and teacher.

I never really learned to hide my feelings during that time.  I bottled up a tremendous amount of fear, anger, frustration and betrayal.  Betrayal by my sister who participated, and by my mother, those former friends and the peers who all witnessed it and did nothing in my defense.  Occasionally someone would ask me, "What are they doing to you?!?!" and I would say, "I don't know," and silently to myself say, "Why won't anyone help me or stand up for me?"

I think of that period as the time my entire life fell apart.  I rarely participated in school activities that I might otherwise have been interested in.  I would scout out the street ahead of me so as to be able to cross to the other side or enter a store or otherwise delay having to pass by a potential bully or taunter.  I seemed to draw that kind of thing to me then.  So, I wasn't hiding my feelings, couldn't really.  Instead, I tried to physically become smaller or invisible.  I tried to prevent trouble.  When it was in my house, I holed up in my room.  I remember once the tormenter was in my sister's room and her shoes were in the kitchen.  I felt complete revulsion towards those shoes.  I picked them up for some reason, by the very tips of my fingers, almost as if I thought they would burn me up.  I wanted to vomit.  I wanted to destroy those shoes.

I guess for me it was a matter of physical safety.  I felt in physical danger from those girls and maybe I was, too.  They were certainly more evil to me than I have ever seen before or since except in movies.

So, when something happens in my life that is as bad as it gets, either a death or people treating me in ways that remind me of that time when I was fourteen, that switch goes off.  The feelings go so underground that I don't even have to work at hiding them.  Because I really can't hide feelings.  So, my heart does it for me.  Just puts those feelings away and lets them out a little at a time like an IV drip.  Nothing for my face to hide because those kind of feelings go way deeper.  This is only for the big stuff.  I still have to deal with the everyday, run of the mill anger and annoyances that I can't hide.  But since I have given myself permission to feel emotions and have been learning to sit with them and not flail out haphazardly, it has gotten easier.

Yes, this idea of stoicism seems to be directly related to safety.  Physical and emotional safety, which in the child's mind become physical safety, I think.
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Hopalong

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2007, 08:46:13 PM »
Oh PP, I sure can relate to being the victim of adolescent cruelty.
And I don't think "adolescent" trivializes it...I actually think it's more terrifying than some others.

My brother, too, not only didn't protect, but piled on.

I wonder if you've ever written or told your sister directly how much that damaged you?

I told my brother once, last year, in email.

When I specifically told him "I need you to say 'I'm sorry'". He wrote: "I am sorry for the past." Pretty lame, but it was better than nothing. And I think some healing did begin for me then.

Has your sister ever heard or acknowledged what her behavior cost you in safety and health?
Do you think you could ask her to say "I'm sorry"?

love to ((((((((((((PP)))))))))))))

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

pennyplant

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2007, 09:41:42 PM »
My sister came to visit me a number of years ago and we sat on the front steps one night and it came up, the subject of those two girls who turned on me and ruined a year of my life, that I was still recovering from.  I told her how she participated in that.  She became upset and said she didn't remember doing any of that and she was sorry that it happened but she didn't remember it.  She seemed genuinely upset.  But I thought it very convenient that she didn't remember any of it.  So, it seems kind of pointless to try to get any more from her about that particular time.

A couple of years ago, she emailed me about an assignment she had for one of her courses.  I don't remember what the course was, maybe some kind of psychology.  She wanted to interview me about my having been a pregnant 18-year-old.  The reason she wanted my story for her class was because the topic was about giving up babies for adoption.  While I was pregnant my plan had been to give up my son for adoption.  I changed my mind after he was born.  But those first few years were pretty rough.  We went through some stuff that I don't tell people about.  I was very offended that she thought I would just tell that story so she could get a really good grade in class for having a unique story to tell for her paper.  I told her no.  It was my story and I wasn't ready to share it.  I haven't shared that whole story with my son.  Why would I write it all out for her school paper?  She continued to ask me to participate, kind of begged and pressured me.  I was very, very upset.  She doesn't consider anyone else's needs or perspective at all.  Never has and never will.

So, her "apology" for not remembering what she did and that in her right mind she never would have done such a thing to me rings hollow.  I don't expect anything truly generous from her.  She can't face herself and she expects me to cooperate with that cowardice and take care of her needs.

After my father died and it turned out that my mother received his life insurance proceeds instead of us, I told her how disappointed I was and that I hoped my mother wouldn't give the money to her husband or something along those lines that my father never would have approved of.  Later on my sister told me that our mother had told her what she was doing with the money but to not tell me.  But my sister reassured me that if I knew what she was doing with the money I would approve.  That so?  If I would be so thrilled with what the money was used for then why can't anyone tell me what it was used for?  I don't understand that.  Again, she is in cahoots with someone who doesn't care about me.  Again my mother has taken my sister's "side" to my detriment.

I guess any apology from that corner would be insincere.  I want only honest emotions.  I want only truth.  The truth hurts less than the fake relationships.

These are people who cannot face themselves or the truth.  They cannot learn and grow.  I know what I know about my experiences.  That is enough for me.  I can make my own peace with it.  I am making my own peace with it!

Those times feel more and more distant to me.  Perhaps this post sounds a little worked up.  But I know me when I'm worked up and this ain't it!!  Finally I feel some kind of acceptance.  This is how these people are.  And it explains everything about my childhood.  I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.  It wasn't that way because something was wrong with me.  And that is what I believed for so long.  I thought something was wrong with me.  There wasn't.  I am normal.  I am a regular person.  I have a big heart and I have some flaws.  But I'm not malignant.  They were.  They were the completely selfish ones--to my detriment.  I don't need any apologies and I don't want them because they wouldn't be real.

I guess it is lucky on some level that I am such an individualist.  Not being close to these people makes my life easier not harder.  I got the closure with my father that I guess I must have needed.  That is enough for me.  One parent gave me validation.  It was one of his last acts on this earth.  That means a lot to me.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Hopalong

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Re: Stoicism/Hiding Emotions/Safety
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2007, 12:01:33 AM »
Penny, wow.
My brother also said he didn't remember any of it...but that was to my mother when she mentioned it to him in recent years, . Weirdly, I believe him. He was so incapable of stopping to imagine or empathize with how his lashing out and acting out with me as his target, his release valve...I think the misery he was in made him blind.

So I can imagine your sister having a blank there, too.

I'm glad she did say she was sorry but gladder still that you don't need it.

thanks for sharing all of it.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."