We as Abuser & Victim

[Dazed1]

Hi all,

I read this letter at Dr. Irene's web site.  She discusses how an abusive N parents can cause us to be both abuser & victim.  She also discusses an adult child's inability to trust, awareness and a mess load of other issues.

I found it very enlightening.

http://drirene.com/unintentional_abuse.htm

dazed

[axa]

CB

Have not read the article but will soon.  Your honesty in your post is so brave.  I need time to think about it and myself because a lot of what you say is familiar to me.  Thank you for sharing this will post again soon,

axa

[pennyplant]

Yes to everything, CB.

Pennyplant

[Leah]

Learned Behavior

choice:  you enable it  or  disable it

Leah

[Stormchild]

YES!!!!!

Absolutely yes... I think there's a fork in the road, just like leah has in her sig line. We hurt, and we have choices.

Choice 1: I hurt, this stinks, I won't ever do this to anyone else, no matter what it costs me.

Choice 2: I hurt, this stinks, I'm going to take it out of the hide of everyone who comes within my reach, for the rest of my life, no matter who they are or how little they deserve the pain.

Choice 3: I hurt, this stinks, I'll just pretend it doesn't hurt, I don't know what else to do, maybe if I curl up and ignore everything I can make it stop.

Choice 4: I hurt, this stinks, maybe if I team up with the person who is hurting me, I can help them hurt someone ELSE, and they'll leave me alone.

Choice 5: I hurt, this stinks, I'm outta here.

Only grownups have Choice 5 as an option, more's the pity.

[PERFECT DESIRES]

I TRIED TO POST THIS BUT I THINK MY WIRELESS LOST WIRELESS
SO HERE IT WORKS THIS TIME

PASTING
cb,

in your post where u say
There's a difference between me as the victim and my NH as the abuser.  But it isnt something intrinsic to who we are.  It's something more nebulous and I don't really know what it is.

I FIGURE THE DIFFERENCE IN REGARDS TO 3 FORMS OF EVIL AS JESUS MENTIONS IN LUKE CHAPTER 12
AND WHICH IS FURTHER DEVELOPED CORRECTLY IN A STUDY BOOK
SEARCH FOR GOD IN THE CHAPTER EITHER I THINK ON  DESIRES OR DESTINY OF THE SOUL

THE WORST KIND OF EVIL OF THE 3 IS TO KNOW EVIL AND TO DO IT
WHICH USUALLY EASILY I THINK FITS THE PSYCHOPATH OR MALIGNANT NARCISSIST
BUT AS ASLAN SAYS IN THE CHRONICLES
SOMETHING LIKE THEY GAIN POWERS OVER SOME MYSTERIES
BY DISCARDING MORALITY BUT THEY FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THE
DEEPEST MYSTERY
WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING LIKE TRANSCENDING TIME THRU ETERNITY OR SOMETHING
THEIR FATE AS GIVEN IN LUKE IS TO BE CASTE AMONG THE UNBELIEVERS
AND TO BE TORN ASUNDER
OR AS IN SEARCH FOR GOD THEIR FATE CAN BE DAMNATION
BUT PROPERLY IN THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT I THINK THE GREEK SAYS12
THAT CAN BE A LONG [VERY VERY UNCOMFORTABLE ] PERIOD OF TIME BUT IS NOT ETERNAL

NOW THE SECOND FORM OF EVIL THAT IS LESS THAT THE FIRST
IS TO KNOW GOOD AND NOT DO IT
AND IN LUKE  ITS CONSEQUENCES ARE MANY LASHES OR STRIPES OF PUNISHMENT
AND IN SEARCH FOR GOD ... IT IS EVIL TO ONE'S VERY SOUL
WHICH IS LESS THAN DAMNATION I TAKE IT

AND THE THIRD FORM
AND I AM NOT CLEAR ON THE WORDING AND EVEN WHEN I HAVE THE WORDING
I AM NOT AS SURE WHAT TO MAKE OF IT
BUT IT IS SOMETHING ABOUT
INTENDING TO DO GOOD BUT NOT MATURING IN THE SPIRIT TO KNOW THE FULLY MOST EFFECTIVE THING TO DO
AND INSTEAD OF THE GOOD INTENDED SOME HARM IS DONE...
AND THE CONSEQUENCES IN LUKE IS A FEW STRIPES OR LASHES OF THE WHIP
WHICH IN SEARCH FOR GOD IS THE SOUL YET WITH THIS APPROACH MIGHT BE ABLE TO GAIN THE CONTENANCE OF GOD
AND THE WOULD PERHAPS BE
WHERE GOD CHASTISES THOSE HE LOVES
BUT THEN HE LOVES ALL ..SO MAYBE NOT

NOW I AM NOT SURE HOW TO EXACTLY FIT IT IN
BUT I DONT THINK NARCISSISTS FIT INTO THE LEAST TYPE OF SIN THERE
WELL TEMPUS FUGUS OR WHATEVER

[Leah]

Dear PERFECT DESIRES / CONSTANCY,

Posting our experiences, thoughts, and feelings in lower case, freely using highlighting, colors, and bold format, as and when we desire, is a relaxed gentle kind way of expression, and welcomed by everyone, across the globe.

Please understand that writing in Capital Letters throughout a post can cause someone to feel anxious or upset.

With love and kindness,

Leah x

[Dazed1]

CB,

Your post is incredibly brave and conscious.

I think you highlight what the letter shows:  because we were abused as children, we unconsciously choose to be in a relationship with another abuser, but in that relationship, we can ping-pong back and forth in being both abuser and victim at different times.

I can't help thinking that if HE had been an enabler, I would have stepped into the N role.  I really, really believe that.  It wasnt this huge departure from who I was.
And how every day, I catch myself being narcissistic and have to "take my thoughts captive".  Every siingle day.

CB, this is an incredible insight and shows your great awareness.  It's also wonderful that you are aware of your thoughts drifting into Nism and then you consciously watch those thoughts and challenge them.  You are using a combination of cognitive behavioral thearpy and mindfulness, which Dr. Irene also discusses.

So, if I thought he hung the moon, and I could see clearly what he was--what does that say about my value system? I hated the way he treated ME, but I really loved him.  The mean abusive way he treated other people?  I squinted to soften the edges.

CB, I also liked how you picked up on this point:  Although we are abused in a relationship, how do our own choices and our own actions contribute to enabling our abuse?  One way we contribute to enabling our own abuse is by switching roles with our abuser, so that at different times we are the victim and then we are the abuser.  It's like the triangle:  victim moves from victim position into abuser position, around and around the triangle.  I want to yell "stop" and get off the triangle.

CB, I think that the "nebulous" thing you refer to is that you are aware and conscious of the victim/abuser dance, whereas NH is unaware, and unconscious of it.  He is still in deep denial about himself.

Leah:
choice:  you enable it  or  disable it

Exactly, Leah.

Storm:
Choice 5: I hurt, this stinks, I'm outta here.
Only grownups have Choice 5 as an option, more's the pity.

Storm, that's true, but choice 5 is a decision we reach only if we are conscious of how we participate in the victim/abuser dance.

Self Judgment and Shame
I also really liked the way Dr. Irene raised the issue of our self judgment.  Once we become aware of how we participate in the victim/abuser dance, we can be very hard on ourselves and I like the way Dr. Irene gives us a break for being an imperfect, fallable human.

Now that I think about it, this is probably the best way to dispense with our shame:  We feel shame because we harshly judge ourselves, just like our N parent judged us.  But once we attain awareness and consciousness of the effects that Nism has had on us, we no longer have to repeat the pattern, no longer have to harshly judge ourselves the way our N parents judged us, we no longer have to be our own worse critic; we can ackowledge we are imperfect, we can acknowedge our mistakes (which is something an N would NEVER do) and we can let ourselves off the hook but still take responsibilty our mistakes.

Thus, in this perspective, shame is a very Nish thing:  we feel shame because we have screwed up, we weren't perfect.  Ns never acknowledge their mistakes, they are NEVER wrong, therefore, when they screw up, they can't admit the screw up to themselves or to others and this failure to admit the screw up to themselves (or to others) results in shame.

But, if we are conscious of the effects of our N upbringing and we admit the screw up to ourselves and to others (and take responsibilty), why would we feel shame?  Wouldn't we instead just acknowledge the screw up and know that a mistake does not render us as defective human beings, but instead just shows our human imperfections.

Wow, I am liking this idea, especially since so many of us on this board stuggles with shame.   What do you guys think about this shame issue?  Now that I think about it, shame is very Nish and seems like if we are aware and take responsibilty for our mistakes, we don't need to feel shame.  What do you think?

Thanks.

dazed