Going back to Grandma-- who was never seen naked

[isittoolate]

Just a bit that I wrote this a.m. regarding reading her letters last night! i ought to scan them and upload them to a site?
Izzy
******************
·   My paternal grandmother was born in 1873, died 1957, at age 84. She always scared me.
·   When she was 16 she married husband #1, 60, and had a child 10 months later.
·   When he died she married my father’s father, #2. She was 21. She had 2 children with him.
·   When he died she married #3. About age 45. No more children but I remember that man and when he died. I was born in ’39.
·   She was heard to say that she outlived 3 husbands and not one of them had seen her naked.
·   She was against dancing, card-playing, swim suits, nail polish, lipstick, boys & dating, and only heaven knows what else. I was always on my guard around her. I was 17 when she died. She left me $300 and I bought a TV. (When I was 17 I lit up a cigarette in front of her after a Sunday dinner on the farm. No one said a thing.)
·   I have just read 4 letters that she wrote to my father in ’36, ‘38, ’39 & ’43 in which she never mentions my mother nor her grandchildren (only that he was married and had a lot of mouths to feed) They are all complaints on how dad was living his life. (She dressed him as a girl until he was 6 and starting school)
·   She told mom to not go out in public when she was pregnant, implying that people woulld know what she had been doing.
·   Her idea of visiting was for Dad to go see her one Sunday, while Mom stayed home with the kids, them Mom go visit her the next Sunday while Dad stayed home with the kids.
·   Reading the letters again last night, I saw things in a different light.  I read that she was shaming Dad for the way he lived, worked, spent his money (he owed her for something) and how she (and Tommy, #3) were going without because of him.
·   I see a generational leaning to criticism and piousness, with the shaming being passed along.
·   If Grandma was opposed to her son having 5 children, for financial reasons, she might have said so and Dad ended up beating us.
·   I saw Dad as a frustrated and ANGRY man who went into violent rages—at whom—little kids, or at his mother?--and he always complained about no money!

[Stormchild]

Hi Iz

How much did stern religion have to do with these things? There was a general avoidance of seeing one another 'skyclad' in many very conservative faiths during the 19th century, the early part of the 20th even, and earlier.

Boys were often left in dresses until they were 6 or 7, toddlers of both sexes often wore dresses because it made nappy changing faster. This was pretty much the standard in the 1800s and earlier. [Remember, in the Middle Ages and earlier, men wore dresses too; they were called 'robes', 'togas' etc., but poo, they were dresses.]

Not apologizing for her or excusing her at all. Just trying to help sort out some of what was actually standard background noise, so that you can separate out the problems a bit more clearly.

[isittoolate]

hi SC

There was no stern religion involved. If you read that into my word 'piousness', it was for the meaning of being "better-than-thou", a person who "knows it all about everything"--and just becasue she didn't do it didn't mean that the world had remained the same as when she was young.

Nevertheless Dad was born in 1909 so I am keeping this in the 20th century. The 19th is too far back to go
on this I agree
I don't think love had much to do with marriages then, and sadly it doesn't really seem to have much to do with many marriages now, either.

My mother had spina bifida and scoliosis and it put her in a wheelchair at age 47. She never danced, ran, rode a bike......... she met Dad through her brother who played violin with Dad. Mom played paino. She was known to have said she married Dad, as he was likley her only choice, They were both 25.

We never saw them share a bedroom, or even an intimate moment.

3 of my siblings married, had 2 children and are still with their orignal partners, but the young ones today?................. eldest sister just celebrated their 50th; we won't hear too much of that anymore!

Izzy

[pennyplant]

Izzy, I think it is fascinating to think about what was going a hundred years ago and see that abuse is abuse no matter what period in history we talking about.

My husband's grandmother had a hideous upbringing.  Her father was supposedly a town supervisor in their tiny Pennsylvania hamlet.  Yet, he and her mother basically abandoned her during childhood every chance they got.  They would leave her in some relative's yard and not come back for her for weeks and months at a time.  She married at 16, lost her first son shortly after birth, had five children in close succession after that.  They were all afraid of their severely alcoholic father and my husband's dad basically became the man of the house and protected them all from his father's rage.  He grew up to be a misogynist.  All this before the 1940s.

My husband's grandmother was a mean, bitter, scary woman.  She had a pleasant side but at her core she was plain mean.  I suppose due to her early trauma and abandonments.  Plus, a violent, alcoholic husband.

I think we have to look at this stuff and see it for what it was.  Abuse passed down through the generations.  Over and over again.  Inability to face up to the truth just perpetuates it.  It doesn't go away if you don't face it.  We all know that here.  Brave people here.

I think these letters you have are a real gift.

Pennyplant

[isittoolate]

Hi pennyplant,  

I agree with you about generational passing down----or is it in everyone? No! I know some people who would be horrified to have these ancestors and right up to the present.

The thing is, knowing that this has happened can release some of the awful feelings we might have about a certain person because of his/her background, knowing it didn't start like RIGHT NOW!

When I was 7 and under, we visited with the neighbours. (They had son who married my mother's sister) They had a daughter who had polio. She was pretty wizened up, in a bamboo wheelchair and lived in her bedroom, never coming to the table--at least when company was there. I was in her room and, from what I remember, it was jigsaw puzzles. She lived in her room doing puzzles. I was too young for the impact of that.

Alcoholism is not just here and now. It is like you said about your husband's grandfather. The same with abandonment. That is horrifying for a youngster, I expect.

Yes, the letters are a gift. (I don't have the originals--they would be in her handwriting. My younger sister typed them for me and sent via email. The thing is, the spelling? punctuation? etc must have been murder in a Word Processor, as my sister typed them 'sic'.)

I plan on trying to think lighter on my dad and mom, while I work on what my shame is. I have to believe that my parents were not aware how abusively they acted. They did what they with whatever came to mind, not realizing the impact from a very early and onward. When I was 40, my mother was still telling me what to do and what not to do.

It doesn't make me healthy and whole, mentally, but it's a start. As well, answers can come from any direction.

Love
Izzy

[CB123]

Izzy,

Thanks for sharing this. I think it is just fascinating.  (I also predict that, with this subject line, this thread is going to get a record number of hits!!!)

CB

[isittoolate]

Thank you CB

Wouldn't Granny think she was someone to make a long thread? Well, I have my doubts. This is a common topic, but we just haven't done what I did

OMG.......I just remembered that after Grandma died, I pictured her up in Heaven watching, disapproving of, everything I did. I put her before GOD!! Oh what an affect on my psyche--applying nail polish, lipstick, smoking, going out for a drink, dating, dancing---------Oh how ashamed I ought to be!

I gather she is elsewhere though--maybe? i dunno

Was this a fair battle? Aw Ya gotta love me!!

Izzy

[isittoolate]

Very Interesting CD


........and very OCD of the family. That reminded me of the search my brotheer initiated into our family and found people from murderers to ministers.

Personally, I like to dump my personal mail. No one will know I am 'permanently on the web"...........there will be a time when many of my posts disappear.

My daughter might save though.

izzy

[Dazed1]

Dear Izzy,

I admire your search into the roots of shame and into your family roots.

Lots of thing you said fit my paternal grandmother and my father:

She always scared me.

she never mentions my mother nor her grandchildren

Her idea of visiting was for Dad to go see her one Sunday, while Mom stayed home with the kids

My grandmother was a very selfish woman.  I didn't like her.  When ever my sister and I saw her, my father always instructed us to "kiss grandma".  Yuch, I didn't want to.  I didn't like her.

My grandma, like yours, manipulated my father and give him negative feelings and thoughts about my mother, my sister and myself.

My grandmother was a witch.  Sounds like yours was too.  As I reflect on my foo disfunction, I KNOW FOR SURE that grandma had a big hand in passing on and creating further disfunction in my foo.  That's what witches do.

If Grandma was opposed to her son having 5 children, for financial reasons, she might have said so and Dad ended up beating us.
·   I saw Dad as a frustrated and ANGRY man who went into violent rages—at whom—little kids, or at his mother?--and he always complained about no money!

EXACTLY!!  Your grandmother manipulated your father and I'm sure she was responsible (in part if not in whole) for the rage he inflicted on you. She set the fire under him, he smoldered and you got burnt.

I plan on trying to think lighter on my dad and mom, while I work on what my shame is. I have to believe that my parents were not aware how abusively they acted. They did what they with whatever came to mind, not realizing the impact from a very early and onward. When I was 40, my mother was still telling me what to do and what not to do.

This is also true.  They knew not the damage they caused and most likely did it unintentionally and unconsciously.  Nonetheless, they did cause damage and we are the results of their damage, just as our parents were the results of their parent's damage.

I think we have to look at this stuff and see it for what it was.  Abuse passed down through the generations.  Over and over again.  Inability to face up to the truth just perpetuates it.  It doesn't go away if you don't face it.  We all know that here.  Brave people here.
I think these letters you have are a real gift.

Amen, Pennyplant.


Last night, I was talking with my Nsister about our deceased Nmom.  N sister (who practically spent her life arguing, fighting and opposing Nmom and causing Nmom grief) has now changed her tune re: N mom.  When I pointed out Nmom's destructive characteristics, Nsister made many excuses for both Nmom and Ndad, most prominent one was "they grew up during the Depression".

OK, it is true that they grew up during the Depression, but now that I'm aware of trans-generational foo disfunction and Nism, I no longer accept that as an excuse for their destructive behavior.  My parent's destructive behavior towards my sister and I wasn't the "result" of growing up during the Depression; rather, it was the result of trans-generational N foo disfunction and their unawareness, unconsciousness about it.  My N sister wants to make excuses for the trans-generational N foo disfunction, but I can't.  I do feel compassion for my parents and ancesters in that they were SOOOO unconscious of the disfunction and resulting damage.  However, I CANNOT make excuses for them being unconscious and unwilling to admit and try to stop the disfunction and resulting damage. 

So, what I'm saying is I have compassion for their unconsciousness, but I can't excuse it.  Does that make sense?

Izzy, what an adorable child you were.  Love the photos.

Love,
dazed

[Dazed1]

Izzy,

Another thought:  Why did your grandmother never show her naked body to any of her husbands?  Because she felt SHAME!!!!   She was ashamed of her body.

So, this message has been sent down to you via the transgenerational disfuctional family rail line.

Yes, this particular message of SHAME was brought to you by our sponsors:  the transgenerational disfuctional family.

Izzy, I bet if you think about it, as you are doing now, your transgenerational disfuctional family rail line brought you TONS of shame messages.

As you said, your grandmother "shamed" your dad about having 5 kids, about not having money, shamed your mom for looking pregnant.

What do I do about the f*cked up critical and disapproving messages my grandmother filled my dad with?  I take out her photo and tell her to her face what a witch/bitch she was and how she  directly and indirectly screwed me (& my FOO) up.  Then I put her photo away so that I don't have to look at her because.........she's dead and ............I'M FREE OF HER AND HER F*CKED UP IDEAS & MESSAGES.

Love,
dazed

[Hopalong]

My mother's mother was a poor pastor's wife with 8 children, two of whom died, one at 12, one at 2 weeks.

And her husband, the pastor...went after her daughters.

I am named after her.

I don't know how she survived it.

No birth control, either.

Hops

[isittoolate]

Hi Dazed and Hops

Well Dazed, from your responses, I see you are on the same track as I am.

Oh how I hated that, "Give so-and-so a kiss!"

likely did it unintentionally and unconsciously

The business of not acknowledging it in later years is a b&tch! I expect they finally came to some conclusion and that woulld make it even worse for trying to communicate, without admitting the truth. (pennyplant and D1)

You are right that the Depression was no excuse!

I do feel compassion for my parents and ancesters in that they were SOOOO unconscious of the disfunction and resulting damage.  However, I CANNOT make excuses for them being unconscious and unwilling to admit and try to stop the disfunction and resulting damage. 

Me too, but since I suffered and likely passedon  shame to my daughter I am finding it difficult to just "let the matter drop"---at least until I have studied it further!

so, what I'm saying is I have compassion for their unconsciousness, but I can't excuse it.  Does that make sense?

Yes. I think my previous paragraph is saying the same thing. Glad you think I am cute. Had curly blond hair and I cut it all off one day, then started on my younger sister's hair, when Mom came in. 2 older sisters were in school, came home and laughed and I told them not to laugh, that Grandma did it! (Yes this Grandma.)

And yes it was this Grandma that brought all the shame oin Dad and Mom, then on us---but what the hell were HER parents like? We have to start/stop somewhere in the search and I think this grandma is as far back as I need to go.

And Hops

Another awful thing to happen to children that affects them all life long! so these are your Aunts? How are they in this day and age?

Just look at a little child and see how innocent, powerless, dependant it is on a good caregiver!

Izzy

[Hopalong]

One aunt, his favorite target, was chronically depressed and even hospitalzed for it. (NMom always called her "difficult".) !@#$%^&*()(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another became feisty and funny, the few times I talked to her. Mom didn't stay close to any of them except the oldest brother, who became a preacher like their father (but not an abuser).

I doubt he touched the 12 y/o with a bad heart, because her rep was that of a near-saintly child, so much that my grandmother could not stop grieving for her. Which NMom called "morbid". !!!

Well, you can see how they survived. Mom's survival was to become an N, likely as her father was.

Oddly, the one thing that Mom does get upset about is cruelty to children. I can hear real pain in her voice. My pain didn't register that much with her but at the same time I believve there is a part of her that truly loves and cares for children, perhaps more in the abstract than in reality.

[lizbeth NLI]

It was common in those days for boys to be dressed as girls (and to have long curls) until the age of 6 or 7.  I have pictures of my father looking like a girl at about age 6.

Women were supposed to stay home as much as they could during their pregnancies.  It was not suppose to be "advertised."  GM was expressing common attitudes for the days when she was brought up.  I  heard this from the older ladies in my family when I started to wear the cute little maternity tops they came out with in the 70's and I worked until my 7th month with OS.

[isittoolate]

Hekko lizbeth NLI

I suppose I can say that if it upset my mother that her mother-in-law was dictating to her what to do, then it was wrong.  I expect my mother had no voice with the Granny from Hell.

Had my mother believed in hiding, in the '40s, then I'll bet she would have passed it on to her 4 daughters, but she didn't.

Sometimes generalities work and sometimes we must deal in specifics.

Thanks
Izzy