People with N moms I need some insight here.

[debkor]

Was thinking about my exN friend’s children?  Do they know what there mom does?  I mean do they really know but hides it.  Buries it somewhere in there deep souls.  She is so fake.  She will love them to death and do things that they think is very loving to manipulate them. When she succeeds she turns around just to knock them down. Really mean things.  I know what she is doing.  She panics that people are seeing the real her so she’ll turn it around to be Leave it to Beavers, mother.

I know those kids are so confused.  You should see how they look at me when they come now. There eyes are wide and they almost look like they don’t know how to act around me.  They want to be themselves so bad. I know it I can see it but they are afraid.  God knows what they heard out of their mom’s mouth.  It looks like if they are to be themselves with me then they might feel they are betraying their mom.
She has taught them to be liars. I have seen her coach them and I have seen the kids obey but not really wanting to.  If they don’t then they are in some big ass trouble and lots of screaming.  Then the guilt is thrown all over them like they did something to cause all this.

She even bought them into a Therapy Consult for one session. Of course they acted like the loves of her life, well behaved and nothing wrong with living with mommy. They are so conditioned.  If anyone they would talk to it would be me. They refuse to talk to anyone not even their father.  She has them so damn brainwashed.
People say to me. She does not give a shit about her kids.  They are weapons for her to use.  I still have such a hard time thinking that Mothers use their Children.

I wonder, do they really know this.  One is 11yrs old, the other is only 6 and the son is 12.  She is the hardest on him. The oldest girl has become 2nd mother to her youngest sister and the real mom gives out orders of how she should take care of her youngest sister.  She has sent her son to live with his grandmother and uses the excuse that her mom is lonely since her dad died so he will stay there.  I’m telling you it is pure bullshit.
She can’t handle him, she don’t want to, he rebels against her.  The girls just do for her. More then chores, like a personal assistant to her.

So my original question before I went off on a rant!

As young as they are, DO THEY SEE THIS!!!!!!!  Do they know?  Are they being destroyed of what they could become and being shaped into something she is?

I can’t go there anymore with their mom.  I have fought for those kids as much as I can and very close to knocking their mom on her ass for something she had done to her son right in front of me.  The only reason why I did not that day is cause her kids were there. Or I would of.    I backed right out of the situation it was getting to hot.   I do still worry and think about her kids though.  I sometimes wonder if I betrayed her children by cutting myself out. But it would mean I would have to stay friends where their mom and that is something I could not endure any longer. 

So do they know their mom is not right and just have no voice? Or are they loyal no matter what? Mom is mom and they love her.

Love Deb

[pennyplant]

What a sad, sad situation.  Especially since, with your knowledge of N, you know what is really going on and how hopeless it is that their mother will change.

With me, I knew something was wrong but I didn't know what it was.  I craved for my mother to love me but I suspected she didn't really.  I always felt like a burden and felt sorry for my parents for having to have me for their daughter.  My sister rebelled to such an extent that it was harmful to herself.  But she may be N too.

Some kids may need their mother so badly they are willing to accept the false front.  My nephew always knew something was wrong but it didn't stop him from reconciling with my sister once he knew he was safe from her interference in his life.  Of age.  In fact, that was how he planned it out.  When she couldn't make decisions anymore regarding his life, when she no longer had legal power over him, then she could come back into his life.  He was still a kid when he came up with that.

I find myself getting more and more distant emotionally from my mother.  I can't "kiss-up" even if it means I'm alone more.  I wish I could let more of it go, but it doesn't seem to be part of my makeup.

I have a sister-in-law who lies.  She is not N.  She was hurt from the abuse and the dysfunction in my husband's FOO.  I remember once at a family get-together the oldest son said, but Dad, that isn't the truth, Mom is lying.  And his dad told him to respect his mother.  It was awkward.  She does do that.  But she is not a malevolent person.  I guess they just accept her flaws and all.  She is a very loving mother.  There are just some things she can't face up to from the past.

I guess I would say these kids are on their own journeys and will come to terms with it or not.  It sounds like they could end up being pretty mixed up people.  But I don't think you should step in unless you want to do major battle.  It might make it worse for those kids.  If there is a way for you to send cards once in awhile or talk on the phone once in awhile, maybe that would be like a light in the wilderness for them.

My nephew always remembers that we got him a Christmas stocking and gifts one year when my sister was in one of her "we are too poor for Christmas this year and Santa's a fake anyway" moods.  He stayed with us one summer and remembers that fondly as well.  But I couldn't just take him in when my sister really started losing it.  At that time, things with my oldest son were on very shaky ground and I knew it would be wrong to bring in another troubled child.  Especially one with a mother who might have done anything in desperation to prevent us from making her look like the bad mother she was being.  I was unwilling to take those risks.  I even called our school district to see if my nephew could enroll himself in our district if he moved to our state and lived in our house.  The answer was no, we had to be the legal guardians.  I knew my sister would never go for that.

I don't think anybody is more surprised than me at the strengths my nephew has turned out to have.  I was sure his future was gloomy at best.  I still am amazed that he got himself through his last two years of high school while crashing with various friends.  He was basically homeless for two years.  His teachers knew it and quietly endorsed it as they knew my sister and knew what kind of trouble she could cause.

These kids will probably turn out to be very resourceful if there are at least a couple of interested adults playing some role in their lives.  I hope so anyway.

I'm sure there will be many more ideas on this out there.  It's a really hard issue.  It would be good if you can find a way to "visit" with these kids once in awhile or give them a pat on the back and a chance to relax once in awhile.  They might not be particularly receptive, though.  When I was a kid I didn't trust people very easily.  If they weren't being mean I thought they were weird.  As a teenager, sometimes my friends' parents would be especially nice and tell me how much they liked me.  Sometimes I was actually welcomed into the home and treated like one of the family.  That was very nice.  Kind of rare, but very nice when it happened. Maybe you can be that for these kids once in a while.

Pennyplant

[isittoolate]

Hi Deb

I will keep it short.

I believe children pick up on things, but are unable to put the situation into words.

I liked my expression re Shame" something is wrong here and no one is talking about it"

I'll bet children sense things and whatever it is, it soaks into their little brains---just to explode when they are 50, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or not!

Izzy

[Hopalong]

Deb, that's terribly sad.
Only thing I can think of would be some creative brainstorming about how you might see those children without being subjected to ongoing contact with their mother.

I wonder if there's any way you could offer her the gift of your babysitting, or better yet, even offer to take JUST HER KIDS with you on a vacation? You could maybe even literally make something up about some special deal where you are able to bring extra kids, but not adults. Or make up a special trip that is just for you and your H, but you've decided to bring kids along for your kids to play with? You could make it a purposeful time-for-just-H-and-me kind of thing...

I think what matters isn't that they have a name for what's wrong with their mother, but that they get a chance simply to experience loving, nonmanipulative behavior from a mother-aged adult woman.

If you do get that chance, I'd just love and appreciate and be affectionate and laughing with them, just give them that experience if there's a chance to. As to insight about their mother, sometimes one adult can say something very truthful that would ease their hearts without stabbing their shaky safety (which is still dependent on being with their mother, darn it). Like:

Bringing up a topic about unstable or weird adult behavior, and then saying very gently, you know, when I was little, I didn't know that adults could be all mixed up. I thought they were always right! (amazement...)

Anyway, I know it may not happen, it may just be too much. And I know you have to protect your core self from any relationship with an N. It's hard to watch kids, esp. N's kids...

Bless you for caring about them, Deb...

Hops

[debkor]

PP
Your right and I not ready to battle.  It would do more damage to her kids then what they are getting now.  It would also be very hard on my own son. They need so much attention and when they stayed with me for a few days, when mom lost her home, they clung to me. My son became very unhappy.   I get to see her son since he moved in with the grandmother.  He has lots of smiles but lots of problems that come out physical with the other kids.  I told my son to not take it personal and be patient. Some times that does not always work and he gets his back (noogies) but they work it out between them. The girls I should see more in the spring when they come to see the grandmother.  My door is always open to her kids I just hope they aren’t afraid to see me.  They trust me they just don’t know if they are doing the right thing because their mom is mad at me.  They look around first.   I am amazed with your nephew and it gives me some hope. What a strong kid.
Thanks PP for your listening to me rant and helping me understand what is going on.

Izzy
God I wish I could spare them the pain. It is sinking into their little brains already. They already are not knowing up from down.  They pretty much act on the moment.
Sad.

Hops,
This friend is an N to thee core.  She’s a smart one too.  She has her way of getting everything out of her kids.  She wouldn’t be smart enough with her son because my son is good friends with hers.  Her daughters she would know something was up and not let them go just to piss me off. Weapons 
When her daughter was 9 she watched the movie When a Man loves a Woman. Yes, her mother let her.  She called me and spoke over and over about the part where the mother is so drunk and pilled up she falls through the glass doors of the shower and the two little girls have to help her and find their father who is away.   I said you should not be watching that and yes it’s terrible, those poor little girls their mom is really ill and needs help.  She repeated herself on the same scene.  I knew she wanted to get something across to me.  I said E aren’t you glad you don’t have glass doors and have shower curtains, she giggled, ya.  Her mom was drinking alot and always took pills. I know she was worried about this.   She got her point across and just wanted me to validate it.
Spring is coming and I should see them playing outside when they visit the grandmother.  So hopefully all will go well.

CB,
You’re right about the court system. The hearing was taken with a grain of salt. Dad couldn’t get two words in.   
Her son was glad to live with the grandmother.  He prefers it that way. His life is so much easier there. He was either a bad kid or a work horse at home.
He sees his dad every other weekend so he does have a role model although the mom was working real hard on destroying that to.  I think they all play a role with their mom just to brush off the Hell that would come down on them.  So they are pretty smart.  They are finding their own way of surviving.  Well see, what’s to come.  Like I said I’ll see the girls in the spring. I really hope they are not getting to screwed up.

Thanks guys for all your help

Love
Deb

[reallyME]

Someone mentioned the word "resourceful" in describing the son of an N mother.  I had to jump on this one...

The N's in my life could be considered VERY resourceful indeed.  Just because someone seems to be able to handle themselves in almost every tough situation, does not mean they weren't flawed from life with the N mother.  In fact, I'm guessing that, as time goes on, you will see some of the coldness that the N mother had, spring up in the son possible.  The ability to appear resourceful is also another "I need NOBODY" narcissistic trait.  It's not always a positive thing.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I thought that a reality check might be helpful in seeing the other side of the word, too.

~L

[JayBailey]

I think CB123 is right with the effect of other, non-N adults being around. 

When I was young, I don't think I recall knowing that anything specific was wrong at home...perhaps I did and blocked it out.  I recall only now how much warmer my one best friend's house was, her friendly and affectionate mom, and how much that contrasted with mine.  My SIL, who's known me since I was six, always saw how old-fashioned and severe my Nmother was with me, but I just remember odd things that I thought were 'normal'.  Even when I got to my teens, I figured it was just that my folks were older. 

I did have other female role models around.  Some teachers (one of whom, my art teacher, was locked in a running battle, poor thing, with my Nmother who could not believe that her daughter had not been badgered by someone else into taking up what was, to her, a totally unacceptable career).  A couple of aunts - one of them my Nmother's older sister, onto whom she projected all her own nastiest traits but who can actually be much nicer!  My SIL, as above. 

The thing is, none of them could really intervene at the time - although now that I'm more consciously aware of what's going on, my SIL and I are working together on sorting out the emotional chaos she still seems to be trying to cause. 

My heart goes out to those poor kids, debkor.  I suspect that probably the most you can do is be a good role model for them.  You can't make them aware (although I suspect from what you said about the movie that there is some kind of knowledge there...I don't know) - they'll (hopefully) come to that in their own good time - but you can at least show them that there's another way.

[pennyplant]

Just because someone seems to be able to handle themselves in almost every tough situation, does not mean they weren't flawed from life with the N mother.  In fact, I'm guessing that, as time goes on, you will see some of the coldness that the N mother had, spring up in the son possible.

Yes, Laura, I believe this is definitely a possibility with my nephew.  It has occurred to me that when he marries or otherwise really comes up against life that the effects of his upbringing will come out then.  Because I just can't believe that a little child can absorb the experiences he has had without some kind of major impact.  I can't believe that kind of stuff just goes away.  I mean, he has been abandoned at least twice, once by my sister, and then she went and grabbed him back, and his father abandoned him several years later.  Got close to a step-father who turned out to be a loser and so he left too.  He has been in situations where he must have felt that his very life was in jeopardy.  Moving constantly and being uprooted.  He has seen his mother be arrested, seen his father act as if he were going to shoot their dog.  Really bad stuff.

I guess all of that is why I'm amazed he is even alive let alone a high school graduate and successful member of the Air Force.

If his childhood should rear up its ugly head one of these days, I doubt very much that I would be able to do a thing for him.  He is so bright.  But then again so are some Ns.  I just hope for the best for him.  At least he has given himself a real chance with the path he is on now.

Time will tell.

Pennyplant