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surf14:
HI Sally, I postd this on the end of "Just learn to Cope" but was not sure you'd see it so have brought it foreward here.  And please for anyone else who has gone through the process of disengaging from an N parent who cannot learn to be supportive and civil. (Thanks JacMac for your response, it helped alot)  
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 29

   
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:12 pm    Post subject:    
HI Sally, thanks so much for your post. I have ordered the book and am waiting for it to arrive. I was wondering; after you decided to release your mother from your life did you have to struggle with the negative shaming voices that you must have heard in your head that you probably felt your mother was directing at you? How did you manage your guilt on "abandoning her" which is how she must have viewed your distancing? Or were you past feeling guilt because of the vile nature of your mothers actions? The mother-daughter relationship is so fraught with emotional entanglement its just hard to imagine getting to the point of letting her go but I am getting close. Thanks for your response . Surf

rosencrantz:
Hi Surf - I had always been afraid of guilt rushing in when the time came for one or both of my parents to die.

When I realised that my father was dying, I had to 'think fast' about how I was going to handle it. And I came up (quite naturally!) with this :

"I have honoured my parents by 'getting out from under' and living the best life I can."

I truly believe that and, as it turned out, my father never recriminated with me - he was just glad to see me again and I had the feeling that (for him) there was nothing to 'forgive' anyway.  

My mother, on the other hand, had a field day and continues to put as much pressure to bear as possible ie she constantly does everything she can to make me feel guilty about decisions I have made in the past and decisions I make now.  (It was only in writing this that I finally cottoned on that when she 'goes on' about the past, she is trying to make me feel guilty - I can be so thick sometimes!!!  I still find it difficult to find words for 'what she does'.)

So the risk is that, if you go, these N parents will bring much greater pressure on you and do everything they can to 'bring you to heel'.  So you need to know that you are strong enough and ready for the onslaught before you try.  Flo's idea about being 'scientific' and putting them under the microscope, watching their attempts to use emotional blackmail on you and provoke guilt is probably a good one here.
R

surf14:
Thanks so much Rosencrantz; you are very courageous and I think that is what it takes to brace against the onslought one knows is coming.  In a sense though I think it is like finally GROWING UP.  Its the last frontier to being an integrated adult.  Mahalos

Sally (sslichterj):
Hi Surf: Interesting question about my mother's response because it made me look at what is going on with my feelings of walking away from my N ex-husband for good.

My mother didn't make any move to attack me, reject me, try and change my mind or appease me in any way.  After my letter to her there was just silence.  She continues to send gifts at Christmas and my birthday (but sends them to me with the wrong last name!! can you imagine...when I married I wrote a short note to let her know I'd marriedl My married name was Jones..she sent gifts to me in the name of Smith! Like 'Smith/Jones, what difference does it make??'  My UPS driver thought it soooooooo weird.!)

And, by the way her way of displaying her love to my sister and I was always by giving us gifts.  Like a gift would make up for all of the mental and physical abuse!!!)  

The gifts now are usually clothes in size small..I am size 16 now at 60 years of age and 5'7"....a small never would have fit, even when I was a size 10.  But, I was always fat in her mind and so was anyone who carried even as much as five extra pounds on their body.  In fact, if you carried the five pounds you really weren't really a person who had any value in the world.  It won't suprise you to learn that my mother and sister are both anorexic.  So, even though there is no communication, she continues to send little digs at me.

One interesting aspect is that I felt nothing about walking away from her, except maybe relief.  Her abuse of me throughout my life was so leathal, so sick that I felt like a bird who had finally received wings.  I still feel nothing about her.  

One therapist once asked what would I do if she died?  Thought that was an interesting question, but I said I would not attend the funeral. She suggested it might be a better idea to go to let her know how I feel about her.  As the therapist said, you could finally tell her without worrying about what her response would be.  So, I have a working plan, since she is in her late 80's and can't go on forever.  But I also know that I will not stay to listen to people tell me how sad they are about her death, or how sad it must be for me.  Everyone knew how sick my mother was and knew what she was doing to my sister and I.  As far as I am concerned those people who stood by and did nothing to try and help my sister and I are just as guilty as she was/is.

But back to the main topic.  Sometimes I wonder if I simply transferred my sick need to be injured by a narcissist from my mother to my ex who has been in my life for over twenty years.  What I think is so interesting is that the greatest pain I have experienced from him always happens when I have left him.  When I leave, he does nothing.  Nothing.  No call, no letter, no attempt whatsoever to appease me, bring me back.  Just nothing.  It's as if I never existed, as if we never were a part of each other's lives.

That part has always been so painful for me, that I would usually be the one to make contact with him, telling him how sorry I was for walking away.  He would gladly accept my apology, cause, of course it was all my fault anyway.  

I am in that painful place of feeling as if I don't and never have existed again as far as he is concerned.  And, for me that is the hard part.  I can't help but wonder why it never hurt with my mother, but it hurts so much with him.  All I know is this time I will not go back.  This time I know it isn't my fault, it is actually his fault (if there is any fault, and I'm not so sure there is.)  I just think we were both really sick people, continuing a dance that began somewhere in our child hood.

Having just learned about narcissism I have a much better understanding about what has been going on in my life. The knowing has taken away a great deal of pain.How will I hold on and stay strong?  Not sure.  Struggling.  Eating seems to be my comfort (does that surprise anyone?).  But, if that's what it takes to stay away, then bring on the food!!!!!!!

Hope I answered some of your questions surf.  Please don't hesitate to ask others, if you need or want to.  It sounds as if you are also in a battle for your life.  Sending you good thoughts and strength!!  Sally

rosencrantz:
Surf - I can't remember exactly how or why I finally 'never went back'.

I left in increments - lived with my mother's sister for a while while I was working near her, then moved into a house with some other girls (that was when the pressure started big time), then moved to Uni much further away.  Went home during vacations and found work but then started finding jobs near Uni instead.  Found a job that required me to work over Christmas then got fully involved in my life away from home.  

I didn't 'plan' it but I'm sure my subconscious knew more than I did!!  I experienced so much verbal cruelty but I didn't know that's what it was - it was just 'me' being a terrible person all the time, never being able to get anything right, never getting approval, always trying harder.  I felt so sick at home yet I continued to go back, doing what was expected, trying to be 'good'!!!  That's so sad (in all senses!).  I had no idea what my feelings were or what they were telling me.  

My mother drove me round the bend.  I remember I used to think she'd say black was white if it suited her.  Compromise didn't exist in her vocabulary.  And everything had to be kept secret. Oh, I was so loyal.

I tried to get help for her (for what I'd now describe as narcissistic rage or hysterical paddies or hissy fits but appeared to be nervous breakdowns - always afraid that she'd 'crack' if pushed too far by my attempts to establish truth or reality!!) - but it just led to further recriminations and the most astounding lies.  

I didn't know they were lies - I'd think I'd forgotten what I said or what I'd written ie I'd think there was something wrong with my mind - what I recognised in the film Gaslight and now know to be called gaslighting).  I was 19 for God's sake (cj, when you write, you take me back to how things were then.  Younger than that - 14 perhaps 16 - I did once just 'not know' where I was, who I was, where I was going.  I knocked on someone's door - they didn't know who I was either!!  :wink:  I have been so disciplined ever since - I NEVER let my guard down - I keep my mind in check ALL the time.)

One day (in my early 20s), in desperation, one time when I went home during a vacation and she was twisting and turning everything and driving me mad, I tried to phone the Samaritans.  I managed to get through.  I was sitting in a small room at the front of the house which wasn't used much.  I only managed to make contact for an instant - my mother came in and broke the connection.  

I put my head down on the stool in front of me.  I cannot explain the noise I made - a very long aaaaaaaaagggghhhh of total anguish.  I'll never forget.  

And my mother twitched the net curtains and said 'What WILL the neighbours think'!

You gotta laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

A few years later, when I lived abroad, she acquired a postal vote for me and voted in my name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I always siad I should've shopped her.  I dearly wish I had now!!!

I think I was very 'adult' from a relatively young age, but my mother was not going to respect or nurture the adult part of me.  She did everything she could to destroy it.

So I'd suggest it's not as 'simple' as being 'adult' or 'growing up' or 'becoming independent'.  

Just wondering how it's different...you need to develop more mental stamina than the average person, stronger boundaries, knowledge, wisdom, competence, resilience - and very good FRIENDS!  :wink:
R

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