On Voicelessness and being patronised...

[rosencrantz]

To patronis/ze : To assume the air of a patron, or of a superior and protector, toward

I've been trying to understand what it is about being patronised that grates so much.  And I've realised that it seems to take my voice away just as much as 'traditional' verbal abuse.     I experience 'being patronised' as like having someone put a garden cloche over me, controlling me, putting me into a pigeon hole in which I don't choose to belong.  I want to shout "Geroff"!!!  'They' are in control, they make themselves more powerful at my expense.

I found this quote in a social research report -

Dignity was seen as a multi-faceted concept: (i) dignity of identity (self-respect/esteem, integrity, trust); (ii) human rights (equality, choice); and (iii) autonomy (independence, control)...A loss of self-esteem arose from being patronised, excluded from decision-making, and being treated as an ‘object’.

So being patronised is experienced here as the equivalent of being treated as an 'object' and it demolishes self-esteem. (N alert??)

It's much more insidious/sneaky than outright verbal abuse - especially because the perpetrator is portraying themselves as so very, very 'nice' and one is therefore 'dis-armed'.

I was once (once!?) accused of being patronising by someone who certainly didn't hold back from telling me what she thought of me.  I was taken aback.  At the time I wasn't sure what I'd done wrong but I'd guess I was 'rescuing' her when it wasn't needed or wanted.  

So now I try to be very straight, very direct, and very honest.  But then I fall foul of people who think it isn't 'nice' to 'call it like it is'.

Do we ACONs do it a lot to others because we're trying so very, very hard to be nice all the time and not hurt other people's feelings??? (because our parents were so very, very sensitive and saw ill-will everywhere)???  Or is it just another version of narcissism.  Or both???

And how to react to it when we are being patronised - how do we 'get out from under' and stop it, 'nicely'???
R

[Rojo]

Hi, Rosencrantz

You've brought up another very interesting topic.  I must confess, I found myself grinning a bit when I read your post because I too have an issue with being patronized.  In fact, whenever this has happened, I morphed into some fanged, protruding lower jaw monster who is out for blood!  Yup, it's a fair statement that being patronized grates me just a tad, too.  

Why does it produce such a reaction?  Well, in my case, I feel it's an attack on my sense of voice, which I've toiled so utterly to obtain.   To me, being patronized is much worse than normal abuse because not only is it designed to render me voiceless, it is also designed to make me feel like I'm an idiot/that I should feel remorse for even trying to think independently ...it's a double pronged attack and I reject it utterly.

How to handle it?  Hmmm, well, obviously I haven't handled it well in the passed     But, my plan for the inevitable future occurrences is to remain calm (jaw back in Rojo!) and calmly call the person out on it.  Something along the lines of nicely, but firmly stating, "Look, I feel your statements are patronizing and that is not acceptable to me."  The person will either have to rephrase their remarks or the conversation will be terminated by me.

Dr. Phil has been on our airwaves a lot lately and something I've heard him say several times now is that "We teach people how to treat us".  That resonates with me and that is why I've thought about how I'm going to deal with the patronizers I run into, in the future.

Is patronization an N calling card?  It can be but I don't think it's anywhere near an absolute indication.  A lot of patronizers are just plain a-holes.  Are we ACONS guilty of it?  Perhaps at times but I don't think it comes from us being a-holes, or N's.  I think it comes from the "rescuer" instinct, which is often highly developed in us, and this can get us in trouble when our help has not been solicited.  I try very hard to step back from people in an emotional situation because I know how vulnerable their vulnerability makes me.  What I try to do is offer support but I try not to jump in unless I've been asked to, and I can do so without hurting myself.  Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying to someone, who's asked for my help, that their situation is too close to the bone for me and that I probably am not the best person for them to turn to, because I will become too emotional to be constructive.

R, I think giving it to people right between the eyes is always the best approach.  Obviously being completely straight with people should be done in a caring way but it should be straight talk nonetheless.  If anything, I've found it's the people who have trouble with straight talk who are most likely N's.

Thanks for bringing this up.

God bless,

Rojo

[phoenix]

bye

[phoenix]

bye

[Flo]

Portia, I can really relate to the story you told about the younger woman stalking away -- or storming off -- after the remark about "half-caste" by the older man in the group.

This reminds me of another incident.   For a while I was trying to learn to play traditional Irish/Celtic music in the USA.  (I later changed to a different musical genre due to attitudes.)  I found a forum/board (there are a lot of them) on the web that discussed it, and people would provide notated music for tunes people requested.  They'd actually post the tunes at the board.

Well, one time a woman said she was shortly going to celebrate her 90th birthday, and requested a copy of "Kerry Dancing."   This happens to be a beautiful tune, which I love, too.  Well, somebody at the board blasted her with something really ugly like "That's not a traditional tune, and nobody will post that,"or something pretty similar.

Well for those who dont' know this, people who play this type of music in the US have a reputation for not being real welcoming anyhow.  Very elitist.  But one sweet woman spoke up on the board, and said she thought that was very rude, and surely somebody could post "Kerry Dancing" for the woman's 90th birthday!!!

But then the owner of the site wrote something that the original reply was exactly right, "since we don't want people here who request trash like that."

I was so  hurt in my own heart and gut -- I was simply stunned that these self-proclaimed "Irish musicians" could treat this woman in such a terrible way!!!  But of course there was nothing I could do, as nobody had their email address posted, and I was not about to get into a dispute, since the owner of the website was obviously a prickly pear cactus pretending to understand Irish ways!  (Anyone ever accidentally touch a prickly pear????  Ever so gently??? And wish you hadn't -- for WEEKS AND WEEKS?????  The spines are tiny and poisonous and you can't pull them all out.  A few stay in your skin, probably for life!!!)

Incidentally, it's amazing, isn't it, how many webmasters seem to be N's?  I get along fine on health boards, but when I go to music boards, or dance boards, or science boards, I have sometimes been kicked off.  Usually by white males, btw. (Not to trash ALL white males.  Certainly not!!! But the percentage of white male webmasters , in my experience, who are N's seems quite astounding!  Something about mastery of the tasks involved in webmastery, plus having an audience, I guess, as well as a large following in a field.)

Flo

[Anonymous]

I think being patronizing is just human nature. Survival of the fittest on a different level. It's a 'superior mind gene' operating. Just smack it down, is my motto. I try to deal with patronization, by doing like. It's a fight fire with fire thing with me. All I can say is I'm not 'big' enough to ignore it most of the time, I haven't achieved sainthood yet! And I don't like the flushed cheeks, rapid pulse and anxiety it creates in me, so I slam back. It works for me. I've got strong 'mind gene's to pal'. THWACK.

Guest.

[cj]

Dunno if I'm even on the right track here, but I'm guessing its a battle of wits, combined with feeling conviction in what you are saying, and in yourself! That battle of wits I'd imagine would also involve 'sneakiness', and as someone else said, fight fire with fire (face it, if you get cocky enough, its hard to resist!:)).
For me, being patronised, sometimes is like having my very 'self' torn in two. A constant questioning myself whether I am right, or not. Like double think in 1984, on a personal level (was doublethink the term? I'm not sure, maybe mixing it up with some other). Its not being able to believe either.
'Their' weaponary lies in facial expression '(Shocked expression, open mouth which says 'I...I...can't believe I'm hearing this, what are you doing to *me*???!!'). Putting words into your mouth which have not been spoken, i.e. manipulating the meaning of what you *have* said, and making it something that induces guilt. Its hard to think on your feet when your anxious indeed, which doesn't help your cause of defending yourself clearly and precicely. Its a denying of 'you' maybe which is why its so bad.

[Sally (sslichterj)]

Rosencrantz: Me too, about the patronizing.  I think, for me, it's part of the issue of not being heard.  Usually (or so it seems to me) the patronizer is jumping to a resolution of the issue, and skipping past my feelings.  An attempt to "fix me".  I'm familiar with the behavior since I have a problem with that myself.  Sometimes it is so hard for me to just stay with, 'oh, how awful, how sad, etc etc. and instead jump in with some advice as to what they "should" do in order to get out of the feeling. AARRRRRRRGGGHH!!! Hate it when people do that to me.  

But, it's hard to separate giving good honest frank advice, I think, from being patronizing.  I think sometimes the patronizing is almost like enabling..giving someone comfort for an issue that is clearly damaging to them.  

Tricky subject, but a good one. Love reading your posts!!!  Sally

[rosencrantz]

cj - what you are describing there is, to me, the full-on manipulative abuse of an 'N'!!  So I think that answers an earlier question of yours as to whether there are Ns in your life.  If you've experienced that directly, then there are!!  
R

[cj]

Yes Rosencrantz. The plot thickens.....
 

I felt so annoyed last night. My mother was asking me where the cat had gone (he walked through to the kitchen) (she is paranoid it will 'sneak out' at night (its not allowed to roam about at night), and not come back in, and thus will be harmed outside over night!), and I told her it was in the kitchen. She asked me to chase him through after he'd finished eating assuming I wasn't going back upstairs. I went upstairs for a tick, and left it eating, and when I came back down, she asked me where it was again (this time in a stroppyish/impatient manner while in the living room). It annoyed me, but I didn't know if i should be angry, and couldn't get angry anyway, because I didn't know if it was justified, and even if I had, she would revert to 'what are you talking about, I just asked you where the cat was?' Sidelining the point about the way it was said!
If she *is* narcisistic, I can't wait till it creeps into her relationship, and ends it. Horrible as that sounds.

[Write]

I think what would work better for me would be to say, "Could you speak to me in a way that would be less consdescending?Phoenix

I have said somewhat sarcastically on several occasions to h 'can you speak in a way that is any [/i]more patronising?'!

We are having a rough time over the separation. He is half the time perfectly reasonable and positive, the rest he descends into his personal hell then projects it out at me. I'm exhausted.