Realities

[WRITE]

my son's psychologist said yesterday- your son is struggling to live between you and ex's very different realities.

I told ex, he said 'you'll have to change' Jokingly, but a lifetime of living alongside him tells me he believes deep-down if I would just change in some way and be what he wants/ needs then everything will be great.

Except- his reality changes all the time.

I have a mood disorder so i am used to moods shifting around me.

But his values/ attitudes/ plans/ decisions are all in constant flux as well as his emotions.

I think I need to start teaching our son that he can't live up to dad's expectations or dependupon his consistency.

Not sure how to do this tactfully/ appropriately yet...

[Stormchild]

Write, luv,

your ex's values may appear to shift constantly if he invests a lot of time and energy deliberately doing / thinking / telling himself he wants exactly the opposite of whatever you [or other targets, most likely including your son] happen to want / believe / enjoy / value.

This is called 'countering'. Patricia Evans describes it as one form of abuse... I've known people who do it, though, and at least in my own experience it's not merely a behavior; it's a lifestyle, a calling, a vocation, practically a religion, for the people I've seen who are really into it.

I haven't met your ex, so I could be waaaaay off base, and I know that. But if he does a sort of amazing weathervane thing, and the only consistent thing about him is that he can be counted on to be in disagreement with you - or your son - no matter what,

then your son could definitely benefit from learning about countering, double-binds, and crazymaking in general - because it will help him see that there really is a core, stable value there. And that value is: disagreeing with whatever you or your son say, do, or think. Period. No mystery, no deep insoluble problem. Except, of course, the eternal mystery of why people who do such things consider such behavior to be loving.

That crack about 'nascent personality disorders' - you mentioned it earlier elsewhere - suggests to me that your son is becoming the new target, in your place; he's vulnerable and easy to get at, and forced to be in proximity. It also suggests to me that your ex is at least partly aware of what he's doing.

It's hard to believe a person can virtually center themselves so much in 'the act of opposing' that this becomes almost all there is to them, but I've seen it. Way more often than I wish I had.

Edit in: logged out, shut down, made coffee [I'm taking a day off work, hooyah] and realized this sounds a lot more hardline than I intended.

I don't mean to imply that your ex, if he's like this now, has always been like this, to the same degree.

I think this stuff is progressive, gets worse over time.

Someone who gets their jollies out of 'winning' - as though every conversation was a contest - if that's what's underneath this - usually does get worse over time.

They get more and more competitive about less and less and less, until eventually all you have to do is say 'good morning' to them, and you'll get slammed with a two-hour, 120-decibel diatribe about how it isn't morning in all time zones and it certainly isn't universally good.

I've seen a few folks who were very far along this path, some of them sadly not even out of their 30s yet. Mostly male, but I've seen it in women coworkers too.

[isittoolate]

Hiya axa


Both of you live in different realities, A and B

So hubby is A, a Narcissist and speaks German, and  you, in B are speaking Spanish. There is no way to change without both of you studying really hard to learn the other's reality.

He can try to speak spanish but will be too lazy. You can try to learn German, but just when you think you've learned it, he is speaking Russian.

So where does that put your son, Is there a letter between A and B?

Comprenez-vous?

Izzy

[Gaining Strength]

WRITE
I think I need to start teaching our son that he can't live up to dad's expectations or dependupon his consistency.

Not sure how to do this tactfully/ appropriately yet...

A child should nat have to live up to anyone's expectations or depend on either parent's consistency (though that would be a great gift if a parent could give it.)  So don't worry about teaching him in terms of his father, you can teach him in terms of your own parenting.  As a mother of a fatherless child I find that I must hold the burden of all the parental failings but every parent has them and so I try to teach my son via my own.  It saves me from the struggle you are facing.  But if you teach him via your own - i.e. not trying to live up to your expectations, then he can apply that to his father as well without you having to do that for him.

That's a thought. - your friend - Gaining Strength

[WRITE]

Thanks Storm, Is, GS

when I say tactful- I mean without putting him any more in the middle/ in the position of havign to choose...plus I can hardly sit him down and say 'daddy's an aggressive miserable narcissistic personality disorder who hates everyone because he hates himself' etc.

A friend said to me yesterday 'you must save your son' and I was in a panic all day until the evening when it hit me- I can't save anyone, only do my best to do what i can.

If ex were hitting him or doign harm in a way recognisible to others it would be a bit easier to draw a boundary- for myself I mean and say, society, I know I can't draw one for ex- but the only thing I can do for son right now is teach him to respect his own reality, his own perception and above all teach him respect for himself and others.

I gave up my son in many ways so as not to put him in the middle of a fight I can't win, but I will not give up my relationship with him, even though clearly ex finds that just as threatening.

I'm getting quite angry and aggressive with ex by the way. He's started to see himself as my victim now, I've always undermined him apparently.

Just when I think I might hit him over the back of the head with a shovel he does something kind or reasonable....he seems to know just the line to tow doesn't he.

your son could definitely benefit from learning about countering, double-binds, and crazymaking in general - because it will help him see that there really is a core, stable value there.

I'll get some stuff together & talk to the psychologist again too. Son has anappt Weds, i have one Thurs and ex is coming with us all next week.

I'm taking the shovel though...

[Stormchild]

Hi Write!

I saw the other thread about countering and verbal abuse... good stuff, yes there is a lot to take in for sure.

I'm going to do something really stupid and try to post about a complicated issue under time pressure, because I have to go to work - but I did want to try and share the thought.

I'm glad you're trying to be both tactful and instructive. I'm relieved that you're trying to find a way to present the necessary information to your son so that he can put the pieces together and reach his own understanding.

So often adults seem to take the position that they can't or mustn't explain things to their kids because that would either burden the kids, or it would look like 'recruiting' them to take sides, or it would [and honestly this is crazy to me] 'look disloyal' to the other parent. [hello? what have they done to deserve loyalty? basic respect, yes, all human beings deserve that, but not enabling and coverups in the name of 'loyalty'.].

What so many parents seem never to understand is that the kids already know something is wrong, they are often confused as heck, and they would LOVE to have ANY idea what is actually going on. And if they don't get answers from others, they WILL formulate their own.

Now, again, I'm writing in a rush - so if something occurs to me later I'll come back and correct any false impressions I leave now.

But I'm thinking over all of the postings from various parents here about communication issues with their adult children - and I can't remember a single posting that has gone anything like this:

"My kid is furious at me for explaining to him what narcissism is. He resents me because he understands his father's/mother's behavior now and sees that there was nothing he or I could possibly have done to make things better. He swears he will never forgive me for destroying his illusions."

But I've seen an awful lot of them that go like this:

"My child almost never contacts me unless he/she wants something from me. When I do hear from him/her, he/she is surly, rude, demanding, impatient, judgmental. I wish I hadn't [stayed so long with the N] [spent so much time defending the N] [tried so hard to protect the N from the consequences of N behavior]. Maybe if I'd been more upfront with my child about what I knew when I knew it... but now, I have a child who believes to the depth of his/her soul that I had a choice to make, and I chose the N, not my own child. I don't know how to fix this, I don't know if I can ever fix it, and it is breaking my heart."

There seems to be an assumption that we have to be fair to the N at all costs. Never mind fairness to ourselves, and sadly, fairness to our children seems to take a back seat to protecting the N's image and the illusion that the N is or ever was an adequate parent.

Now, I'm not saying you should trash your ex. Not at all. You're looking for a point of balance here, and it's a very fine line to walk.

What I am saying is that you're doing the right thing in trying to give your son the information, let him process it. But don't be afraid to answer his questions, and don't be afraid to ask him to delve into his own memories of events to reconstruct behavior patterns for himself.

Lucidity and a clear framework in which to place these things, which otherwise may seem to make no sense at all, is the very best gift you can give him. He already sees you healing and moving forward, so you have given him the gift of a healthy example already. Now he needs the tools to follow your example, and some solid, detached guidance in how to use those tools. You can provide this, along with a good therapist who understands the facts of your situation...

I hope this sounds the way I mean it - encouraging, concerned, and without judgment or condemnation.

[Hopalong]

Hi Write,
I think finding the psychologist for your son was a wonderful gift to give your son. Sometimes one of the most healing experiences for a child is to develop trust with someone outside the family. There is SO much pressure in our nuke-u-lar family culture, to resolve everything within our bungalows. And half the time we just can't.

Do you feel confident this psych knows about Nism? That can be a hard thing to gauge, but I've been thinking if I ever do therapy again, I wouldn't hesitate to give them books on it, and insist that this issue be on the table, acceptable to the T to consider, or I'd shop for another.

It's an enormous pressure to try to take care of everyone, with judgments coming at you from all sides from those who haven't walked the same kind of path as a parent. You can never do it perfectly, you can't protect him from everything, including yourself, honesty can be a tool of both enlightenment and wounding, depending how it's wielded--and none of us are as objective as we might wish we were...especially about the curve of behavior that includes Nism, Nistic people, our Nishness, or our children's.

There is blame to find wherever one looks for it. I think you deserve a break.

I know that cold panic, and I'm sorry you've felt it. We are trained, imo, to believe that parents are superhuman. And we're not.

As Forrest Gump would say: ...and that's all I have to say about that.

love,
Hops

[Stormchild]

Thanks, CB.

[WRITE]

I talked to the psychologist and though I agree with what you say if my son were older it's very much an adult's perspective and the psych reminded me he's still a child, albeit an intelligent and perceptive one.
He isn't going to be able to cope with the concept of personality disorder, though as you say I can let him know something's not right each time dad presents something skewed.

The psych says not to try and explain it to him, just keep presenting alternatives.
She says my son sees me as strong and his father as struggling to cope, that's why he seems more solicitous to his dad whilst disrespectful.

My ex has improved over time, with the psychiatrist and a/d s; but sadly it's not enough to not affect our family very positively, and the constant slipping back is very wearing, just like all his inconsistencies, they are abusive to us.

What he's reacting to now is me withdrawing I guess, he sees I am moving on and he's trying to hook me back any way he can, hence the problems with son, the sudden potential move etc. He is so emotionally messed up and not doing nearly enough to help himself either.

The psych said my son is coping fine, but that my ex was a palpable presence in the room and she doesn't want him to go there right now, I need it to be my space.

That's the first time anyone has ever protected me that i can remember!!! Tears just sprung up typing that. I'm 40 years old and someone just took care of me, and I let them!

[Leah]

Oh (((((((((( Write ))))))))))

[Hopalong]

Oh ((((((((((Write)))))))))...
a good T.

I'm so glad to hear this.

love,Hops

[WRITE]

Thanks everyone for supporting me through this, and especially when I don't have much computer time, I apologise for if I miss anyone's thoughtfulness at first, it takes me a few reads to digest also.

Yes, she has been the best therapist, wonderful. I've been seeing her for four years at the end of the summer.

She says my son is fine also that we have misinterpreted what he is doing saying: he is staying with ex because he sees me as strong and able to care for myself, and it's dad he's concerned about not himself in the question 'do you ever think about killing yourself dad?'

Ex would bounce that off right away of course, and I just told him the first bit about son worrying about him which he blew off right away.

But he has been neglecting himself, moping around angry and depressed and vitriolic ranting, and drinking more than usual.

The journal didn't get completed yesterday even though ex said he thought it was proving useful before I left! I will never understand the logic of him if I were to watch him a thousand years- it defies logic.

Everyone assures me that he will burn himself out, but it is the desperation that's fueling the erratic behavior.

it works too. My friend went back to her abusive husband this week even though the reason she filed for divorce was CPS beign involved because he was abusive to the kids!
Bullying and blustering sadly means it's easy to push people around.

One of the things in the therapy session was 'what's the worst outcome...' and therapist says I've dealt with violence, bullying, manipulating son...I can cope with everything but the anxiety; we talked about my fears and how often they have proven sinister and true, and how it seems like a fictional horror movie at times; then switches to normal pleasant and I wonder if I have gone mad.

We discussed how my illness became part of the abuse- and I was very thankful that my therapist worked closely with my then psych doc when I was really sick because she got to see that and to hear what the psych said about I wouldn't recover properly whilst ex was 'takign care of' me.

I can't really afford all these extra sessions but I asked ex to pay half of son's and i know it's the best way to handle my illness- get good support early on when stress comes. I think I'll set up a new psych doc for if I need it.

It's been nice having an enforced rest due to spring break and car repairs. Church is going well too, the guy there has been makign such an effort I think he was shocked when I said I don't really want to work with him and wish we had met under other circumstances; maybe he needed to hear it from a friend- figure, the truth that he was being unreasonable? He called me this week to chat and see how I'm doing and ask about son; I like that.

My close guy friend has been doign this weird thing lately of we never get to go out alone, he invites tons of other people too, last night I cancelled, i was too exhausted to go make chit-chat, he has interesting friends but high-brow and high-maintenance too! This is several times it has happened and this time I complained, i had told him I feel very fragile and was looking forward to talkign to him. Am I uinreasonable to expect to know what kind of evening is planned, I don't think so?! I would tell someone if they weren't my only guest. If he hadnt sent an email to us all with the map I wouldn't have even known til i got there. i didn't go anyway, had a quiet evening writing and reading.