Mommie Dearest...bad mother or no mother at all?

[reallyME]

I'm going to go back to the movie "Mommie Dearest" and ask all of you if you would label this human creature as a "mother" because I sure wouldn't.  A person who does those things to a child, is not worthy of the label "parent" let alone "mother."

To here read some of your stories about situations in the houses you grew up in, and then hear about how you just got back from visiting these evil creatures and were burned yet again, I feel so upset inside.  As I've said many many times, I still believe it is Stockholm Syndrome that would cause an adult child to return to the "being" who severely abused them and still does.  The N would have had to really destroy almost every thread of your self-esteem for you to even feel guilty about not wanting to visit them now.  Why would someone want to purposely continue to put themselves back into a situation where they come away from it, feeling totally invisible, shunned, scored and punished?  It has to be something strong that drives a person to live his life in this manner, including the persecutor as a large part of it.

The Bible says that "as a dog returns to his own vomit, so a fool returns to his folly."  N's have made fools out of people, even the ones they gave birth to...and those poor victims, keep thinking they deserve to return for more abuse throughout the years.

In the words of one of my favorite motivational speakers/weight loss expert...STOP THE INSANITY! 

~Laura

[isittoolate]

Hi reallyME

Did you really believe every word that Christina Crawford wrote about her mother?

I saw a person making a bundle $$$ about a dead woman who was not able to defend herself, and never thought every word was etched in stone.

xx
Izzy

[Leah]

Christina Crawford most likely would not have written the book, if she had been included in her mother's will (that's my recall and understanding of the situation). 

What if - Christina had maybe, felt that her voice had never been heard or her life experience was non-validated ??



Yes, I did believe her account, based upon my own mother's behavior, witnessed by my aunt on a couple of occasions.  And now thankfully, by supportive testimonies in writing, which I treasure, for my own personal sanity, as who would believe me??



Many many people make money from their true life stories.

Many many people, organisations, make millions from self-help programs or suchlike, books and merchandise.

Is it right or wrong?  Moral or Immoral ?  I don't know the answer to that one, though I do wonder about it, sometimes.



Leah xx

[poetprose]

I'm going to go back to the movie "Mommie Dearest" and ask all of you if you would label this human creature as a "mother" because I sure wouldn't.  A person who does those things to a child, is not worthy of the label "parent" let alone "mother."

To here read some of your stories about situations in the houses you grew up in, and then hear about how you just got back from visiting these evil creatures and were burned yet again, I feel so upset inside.  As I've said many many times, I still believe it is Stockholm Syndrome that would cause an adult child to return to the "being" who severely abused them and still does.  The N would have had to really destroy almost every thread of your self-esteem for you to even feel guilty about not wanting to visit them now.  Why would someone want to purposely continue to put themselves back into a situation where they come away from it, feeling totally invisible, shunned, scored and punished?  It has to be something strong that drives a person to live his life in this manner, including the persecutor as a large part of it.

The Bible says that "as a dog returns to his own vomit, so a fool returns to his folly."  N's have made fools out of people, even the ones they gave birth to...and those poor victims, keep thinking they deserve to return for more abuse throughout the years.

In the words of one of my favorite motivational speakers/weight loss expert...STOP THE INSANITY! 

~Laura

I believe it is  the very nature of "good" or light", to  believe that evil is redeemable..... I do not see N's as making fools out of people, in so much as the good in people exposing the N's for what they are,  light always exposes darkness.... 

I was abused severely by the very hands of the person whom was suppose to keep me safe and protect me from evil...... a child loves his or her parent , (((((therin lies the crutch of it))))) ........ children instinctively love their mothers and fathers,  Although I realise that maternal blood love is a different type of relationship, then that of a man and wife... still love is love

 And I'd rather be a fool* for love and all the blessings loves bestows -  Then to walk arround with internal torment, and emptiness, and pain that a N has to live with each and every day of his or her life..............

I too have wondered if a bad father is better than no father.....  also I know there have been many times in my life now at the age of 48, where I would give alot just to be able to pick up the phone and talk to my mother or father.... just to know they are there, 

[Stormchild]

It seems to me as though we are revisiting the issue of the Bad Mommy Taboo, here.

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=3876.0

I had a bad mother. I had a LOUSY mother. She was abusive, self-centered, scheming, manipulative, vicious, vindictive.

And do you know what? sick and sad as that fact is, I am doing so much better, knowing and admitting it, than I ever did during all the warped and desperate and twisted years I spent trying to 'make her love me' and wondering why she didn't.

Trying to win the love of MY OWN MOTHER?????

She didn't love because she couldn't. Worse still, she DIDN'T WANT TO.

She was a lousy mother.

Mere fertility does not a mother make, in any sense other than biological, and mere biological parenthood is not enough.

Here are a few links about Waneta Hoyt, who deliberately suffocated five of her young children and managed to pass it off as SIDS... fortunately, there is no statute of limitations on murder.

Just to make it very, very clear: she suffocated one, then got pregnant with the next one, then suffocated that one, then got pregnant with the next one. And every single pregnancy was deliberate. And she stayed married to the same man and made a stable home for the one child she didn't murder - one that she'd adopted, who was old enough that he didn't cry, which is apparently the thing that saved his life.

It could be argued that she was a good mother to the one she didn't murder, I suppose... 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CE1D9113DF932A25757C0A963958260

http://law.jrank.org/pages/3680/Waneta-Hoyt-Trial-1995.html

[Hopalong]

CB, thanks for your clarity of thought and expression.

I am more comfortable continuing to use the descriptor "mother" (based on biology, or family relationship) and then modify it with "good", or "bad", or "abusive", or "affirming".  I don't think by continuing to use the descriptor "mother", that I am denial about the fact that there are many mothers that are horrendous, and that don't even love their kids at all.

I love a cogent explanation that embraces language as an ally...
you do this with such grace.

love,
Hops

[poetprose]

>>>>Can a mother who is not a good mother be rightfully called a mother?  <<<<

My step daughter carried tremendous guilt for many years when she was growing up,  she could not bond emotionally with her mother,  her mother was not the hugy kissy "I love you child" type of mom

she carried around this gult because she bonded with me, more than her mom, she is much older now 32 to be exact, and she realised that it wasn't that her mom didn't love her, but it was just realising her mom was not capable of givng her the emotional support that she needed as a young girl growing up...

she thanked me for never putting her mom down, or saying anything negative about her mom all those times she came to me and cried on my shoulder ....  so what is a mother? 

when i was a little girl and the drinking and fighting started , i would invite myself over to my girlfriends home, i loved the security and safety there..... this friends mom was my serogate* mom, she took me in EVERY time i needed to get away from home and feel safe

to this day I think of my friends mom as my "guardian angel" God bless her always

[reallyME]

Semantics, "good mommy, bad mommy" or whatever you want to term it, I'm sticking to what I said...someone who is a true narcissist, will NOT be referred to as a "mother" by me.

[dandylife]

Laura,
I feel the same way about my dad, who was an N. I mean, I feel like I did not have a dad. From the earliest I remember I didn't feel like I had one. I had a man who was obviously bothered by the idea of children and his idea of spending time with us was at the very best, "I'll play hide and seek with you but when I find you I get to spank you." And this wasn't in jest. That is his sense of humor side.

Anyway he died at 57 of cancer and I've talked about him a little before on the board - when he died, he died alone, we were all in the house, knowing he was dying and we were in the other room, talking quietly as he passed. No one was with him. That's what he deserved.

There is a void in me where a father could have, should have been. I know what you mean. And I agree. I tried many times to get through to him as a person, a human being, but it wasn't there for him.

As far as the people on the board who choose to include N's in their lives, I can only say that I admire their efforts and it will be a learning experience for them, whatever the outcome.

Dandylife

PS: What was your mother like?

[reallyME]

My mother was and is a critical person, who always finds the negative in any positive situation.  I don't consider her to be an N at all, but she was very detatched sometimes when I'd try to talk to her.  I can remember times of depression in her too.

When my step-father became abusive, my mother felt helpless and would just stand there, screaming "John STOP IT!"  My step-father was OCD, paranoid and schizophrenic.  I was 7 when he came into my life.

Overall, the problem in my upbringing was my step-father, not my mother.

I don't consider him my "dad" either...he was a "father-figure" who was mentally ill and abusive...nothing more, nothing less.

~Laura

[dandylife]

Laura,
Criticism is hard to handle from mom at any age. We all want to feel accepted. Especially from our parents! I'm sorry you don't experience that from your mother. My mother was very detached, also. She was very big on "I can't wait until you kids are independent!" She wanted her own life.

Your stepdad abused you. From your knowledge and resources as an adult, it seems you have an understanding behind the "why". But that doesn't erase your scars or take away the emotional abusive memories you have. From some of your past postings, I gather you are very well educated in psychology. But, have you taken the time to give to yourself to heal these wounds through therapy or journaling or something? You seem very "detached" from the abuse yourself ("abuse...nothing more...nothing less.") Your step-dad likely was abused himself as a child, but I feel myself drawn to your inner child, still hurting.

hugs to you,

Dandylife

[Stormchild]

I actually use the term 'biological parent' in realspace, because there are such strong sentimental connotations to the word 'mother' that I don't want to mislead anyone when I speak about mine.

Which, come to think of it, I haven't done for a long time, now, anywhere else but here.

That's progress.

Where the Bad Mommy Taboo comes in is that I detected undercurrents in the discussion, to the effect that the biological fact of motherhood is the same as the cultural and emotional institution of motherhood - and that one must never look critically at whether or not this is actually true with regard to one's own female parent.

The bottom line is: not glossing over the fact of abuse, and not trying to convince oneself that abuse is actually love, whatever terminology may or may not be used otherwise.

[Overcoming]

Faye Dunaway never got another good acting gig after this movie - she became Joan Crawford personified and basically she couldn't shake the "bad mommy" typecasting.

Me?  I keep expecting my nmom to disinherit me and it would give me joy to write a book or stand in front of the church at her funeral and basically tell them all how she "really" was.  When I watch Mommie Dearest it evokes a lot of emotion in me because it is my mom (not the movie star, not the drunk, but the evil eye, the punishment for doing very little things like making out with a boy!!)  I also relate totally in how Joan Crawford, at the end of the movie, was grasping at anything she could to recreate that feeling she had back in her glory days of Hollywood.  Even stepping in while Christina was sick and playing HER role on the soap opera..................a clear case of jealousy or something like that.  Or emposing her will upon the Coca-cola people even though she was clearly out of line.  So reminiscent of my nmom and me at work...........she will order whatever she wants because "she owns the store....."  And yet it might not be what sells or definitely not in budget - but she can do what SHE wants.  It makes me sick!!!

My brother said to me that we earned our inheritance.  We earned it while our "mother" was out making her money we were left alone and neglected.  We were merely a nuisance while she talked on the phone 24/7.  If we tried to get her attention, she snapped her fingers at us and shook her head NO.  She would take me with her when I was too little to leave alone but she would leave me in the car while she went in and delivered items to her clients.  I remember honking the horn after awhile and always getting in trouble - but I did it every time!!  She was gone two weeks out of the month, never attended our sporting events or our class parties.  She never went to parent/teacher conferences. 

I never thought it was wrong until I grew up.  I wonder how many of us thought our lives were normal.  And how many people thought our lives were normal.

I went to a wedding last summer of a friend I met in seventh grade.  Her parents were great.  They were a military family like our and their father outranked mine by a long shot - but we had more money because of my nmom.  Mom always felt superior - or acted superior.  She would never socialize with any of my friend's parents.  I figured out later that she never socialized with anyone outside of church or her business...............my theory is she didn't want to risk people really getting to know her.  Anyway, this family is terrific and I said something a little disparaging about my family at the reception and they looked at my quizzically and said, "Your parents were great."  Great??  Where did you get that?  Oh, yeah.  Appearance Management.

Gosh.  I'd love to right a book.  Living with a Critical Parent.   OR   Queen Mother the Bitch   OR  Your Royal Highness the Smoke and Mirror Queen    OR   It's All About Me, and by the way, Who are you anyway???    OR
How dare you question me?     OR    I did it all for you       OR     You are just ungrateful        OR   Why Weren't you in church?  And other guilt ridden statements

Well, you all get the pic.....