Help - Nmother is trying to coerce me for money

[Incrisis]

My mother is very impulsive.  She has fantasies of wealth and glamour that have caused her to invest in property way beyond her ability to sustain and this consistently results in her being in a financial emergency where she has nothing available to pay her bills.  At a time when she should be thinking of taking things easy  - she is 65 - she has debts of over 600000 dollars and lives in a constant state of being on the edge of financial meltdown.  She does however have a valuable house that she is currently making over in order to sell.  To do this she has borrowed 125k from my brother and it has now run out.

My situation: I have just split from my partner, sold up and have my share of the proceeds of the sale in order to put my life (as a single jobless childless 40-something) back on track.  I don't know what my situation will be, I'm in a mess, I don't know what to do with my life etc but I do have a bit of security with which to make some choices when I feel able. 

Problem: my mother is coming after me with a vengeance for financial bail-out. She says she wants money to finish off her house and says I'll get it back when she sells it; but I know that anything I lend her will just be for starters and it could seriously affect what choices i am able to make about my own future.  It may work out and I'd get it back in a few months, or it may not and she could just keep making demands and it could well turn into a nightmare that I'd sorely regret.  She has used intense emotional blackmail: "I don't think i'll ever be able to forgive you if you don't bail me out", "I have nowhere else to turn", "its for your own good as it will be your inheritance" etc. 

I don't want to see her lose a lot of money and go into financial meltdown, but at the same time I don't trust her with money, resent the blackmail tactics she is using, am aware that she has never helped me financially, and have found her of late to be increasingly hostile and difficult to be around.  I feel guilty and don't know whether I am being very hard or whether to help her.  After all my brother has already bankrolled her to the tune of 125k (he has a well paid job and lives with her), but I didn't sign up for her house refurbishment plans and don't want to be dragged into her chaos.  This feels just horrible. I don't want to be cold and cruel. I could be ending my relationship with my mother.  This could be hastening her to financial disaster. The thing is, I don't understand why she just kept spending when she knew she couldn't cover her bills and resent having to bail her out like she's an irresponsible adolescent. 

Please help.

[OwnImpulse]

My own impulse... 

Two options (to think about)
Either: Give her ONLY what you are ready to give and never see again...
    Tell her that BEFORE: ``It is the only amount you could get.  Is it
    something that would help you to complete the renovations?  Think
    well before because, I am not going to be able to give you more and
    if it is to loose everything, it might be better to rather declare bankruptcy
    right now."

Or: Consider lending money to your brother rather than your mother.  It
   would be his choice to lend more to your mother if he thinks she could
   actually do something positive with it.  You would have somebody with
   a good job so better chance to get something back.


But...  I have the impression that with such a debt, it would take long before
getting to the positive side of one's account.  House being sold or not.

So... the money you might be ready to give up for your mother might be
better spent in hiring somebody to help her put her things in order...

[mountainspring]

Incrisis....  I wouldn't do it.  She needs to bail herself out.  She has that option.  The house doesn't have to be completely refurbished for her to sell it.  She has already put 125K into refurbishing part of it, and she is impulsive with her money.  You have no job and your $$ you have is your only security.  I would tell her that I wasn't in a position to lend her any money and let the chips fall where they will.  That's easier said than done, but your mother is treating you extremely unfairly.  

[BonesMS]

My mother is very impulsive.  She has fantasies of wealth and glamour that have caused her to invest in property way beyond her ability to sustain and this consistently results in her being in a financial emergency where she has nothing available to pay her bills.  At a time when she should be thinking of taking things easy  - she is 65 - she has debts of over 600000 dollars and lives in a constant state of being on the edge of financial meltdown.  She does however have a valuable house that she is currently making over in order to sell.  To do this she has borrowed 125k from my brother and it has now run out.

My situation: I have just split from my partner, sold up and have my share of the proceeds of the sale in order to put my life (as a single jobless childless 40-something) back on track.  I don't know what my situation will be, I'm in a mess, I don't know what to do with my life etc but I do have a bit of security with which to make some choices when I feel able. 

Problem: my mother is coming after me with a vengeance for financial bail-out. She says she wants money to finish off her house and says I'll get it back when she sells it; but I know that anything I lend her will just be for starters and it could seriously affect what choices i am able to make about my own future.  It may work out and I'd get it back in a few months, or it may not and she could just keep making demands and it could well turn into a nightmare that I'd sorely regret.  She has used intense emotional blackmail: "I don't think i'll ever be able to forgive you if you don't bail me out", "I have nowhere else to turn", "its for your own good as it will be your inheritance" etc. 

I don't want to see her lose a lot of money and go into financial meltdown, but at the same time I don't trust her with money, resent the blackmail tactics she is using, am aware that she has never helped me financially, and have found her of late to be increasingly hostile and difficult to be around.  I feel guilty and don't know whether I am being very hard or whether to help her.  After all my brother has already bankrolled her to the tune of 125k (he has a well paid job and lives with her), but I didn't sign up for her house refurbishment plans and don't want to be dragged into her chaos.  This feels just horrible. I don't want to be cold and cruel. I could be ending my relationship with my mother.  This could be hastening her to financial disaster. The thing is, I don't understand why she just kept spending when she knew she couldn't cover her bills and resent having to bail her out like she's an irresponsible adolescent. 

Please help.

If it might help, I could attempt to put this in the perspective that Judge Judy might say:  "Parents should NEVER TAKE from their children!"  She has NO right to blackmail you nor extort money from you under any circumstances.  She has never helped you in the past so she has NO right to demand YOUR money now.

Bones

[WRITE]

you've got good advice here and I can only add that money and self-esteem are really tied up and people with high self-esteem don't feel guilty about being practical or generous with themselves rather than others or about saying no.

You seem to know what's best for you, just need to come to an emotionally comfortable place with it- which you may not as an N isn't likely to let you off the hook of beign punished for not doign their bidding!

I've had a lifetime of giving all my money away and though it's made me very strong spiritually and trusting in the universe that way- I have never been in need- and I see the balance of the universe, I also now need to rethink my attitude to money or I will have difficulties as I get older or sicker for example; I want to be responsible not make a burden for my son later.

One thing I have decided is if I can't stop giving things away, and part of me loves this lack of attachment to material things so i may....no more will i ever give to individuals family etc. Just to causes, charities, and ananymously mostly.

I have been exploited by people because of my gullibility and it's not how I want to live.

You are not responsible for anyone else's finances.

[Hopalong]

I wonder if you could have a legal agreement created that would allow you to recoup your money from the sale of the house directly, with profit, rather than trust her to "pay you back"?

Such as, having your name put on the deed? Or, having your mother create a trust that leaves you the house?

Better yet, do what MS and OC say. You will be very very sorry if you jeopardize your own old age security (and it's NOW that you can create it) for a selfish entitled prima donna of a mama.

It is not cruel to say No. It is difficult. Difficult does not mean wrong. It is difficult.

And you can do it.

Hops

[Hopalong]

PS--How about going to see a lawyer and laying it all out?
Then tell your mother you want her to go to a lawyer with you, because you have questions.
Then at that appointment, have the lawyer spell out to your mother what you CAN do and CAN'T do, based on his/her advice.

[crisis]

Thank you for all your thoughtful replies.  I didn't mention that although she is refurbing her own home, she also has 2 other smaller rental houses.  I have been saying for a long time that I think she should sell one of them to cover her expenses but she has consistently refused to, saying she wants to maximize her profit on them by refurbishing them before she sells them; she has not been willing to let go of any "potential profit" even though she has nothing to finance the works with, other than coming after my brother (who's lent her 125k), my father (who she hasn't been married to for 37 years, but who still lent her the money to pay tax bill a month ago, mainly in the attempt to stop her coming after me), and me.  What I'm saying is that she has 3 houses, she had it in her power to sort this out easily by selling one of them before she got into the total mess she's in now, she has so much more than any of us, but she is still squeezing us for whatever she can get to avoid having to take responsibility for her own spending.

I hate to see her in this mess because the vitriolic and controlling side goes away and the drowning child (equally controlling in its way) comes in and begs to be taken care of. 

But i'm angry that

- she has put herself into this position essentially intentionally by refusing to sell one of her houses and keeping on spending when she knew she didn't have the cash
- she has ridiculed any advice I've given her about how not to get into this mess as it was obvious she would get herself into a mess like this
- she is not taking no for an answer from me
- she is using emotional blackmail to try and force my arm to give her what she wants
- she is regarding her children as resources of cash to finance her projects because she is unwilling to finance them herself by selling her property
- she would rather jeopardize our relationship than take responsibility for herself
- she has no empathy for where I am in my life right now and what I may need from my mother (dream on...)

but i feel guilty that

- I'm not willing to help her in her "hour of need"
- that my ex has sent her a vitriolic email about how she should be ashamed of herself, that he's seen her emotionally abusing me for years and that he's been trying to get me to cut off from her for years

She must be feeling terrible and worried and I am feeling terrible and angry and guilty and I haven't phoned her because I don't want her to keep making demands of me.  Its a mess and it feels big.  But I guess that in the end I have a lot more to be angry about than feel guilty about.  And if she disinherits me?  Well, that is a whole new can of worms and I'm not sure I should play that game as it would be playing right into her hands.

Thanks for your feedback.

[BonesMS]

Lack of empathy on her part appears to be a sure sign of Narcissism.  At least that is my perception.

Bones

[WRITE]

She must be feeling terrible

here lies an important thing, I will start a thread....

[Margo]

My mother is very impulsive.  She has fantasies of wealth and glamour that have caused her to invest in property way beyond her ability to sustain and this consistently results in her being in a financial emergency where she has nothing available to pay her bills.  At a time when she should be thinking of taking things easy  - she is 65 - she has debts of over 600000 dollars and lives in a constant state of being on the edge of financial meltdown.  She does however have a valuable house that she is currently making over in order to sell.  To do this she has borrowed 125k from my brother and it has now run out.

My situation: I have just split from my partner, sold up and have my share of the proceeds of the sale in order to put my life (as a single jobless childless 40-something) back on track.  I don't know what my situation will be, I'm in a mess, I don't know what to do with my life etc but I do have a bit of security with which to make some choices when I feel able. 

Problem: my mother is coming after me with a vengeance for financial bail-out. She says she wants money to finish off her house and says I'll get it back when she sells it; but I know that anything I lend her will just be for starters and it could seriously affect what choices i am able to make about my own future.  It may work out and I'd get it back in a few months, or it may not and she could just keep making demands and it could well turn into a nightmare that I'd sorely regret.  She has used intense emotional blackmail: "I don't think i'll ever be able to forgive you if you don't bail me out", "I have nowhere else to turn", "its for your own good as it will be your inheritance" etc. 

I don't want to see her lose a lot of money and go into financial meltdown, but at the same time I don't trust her with money, resent the blackmail tactics she is using, am aware that she has never helped me financially, and have found her of late to be increasingly hostile and difficult to be around.  I feel guilty and don't know whether I am being very hard or whether to help her.  After all my brother has already bankrolled her to the tune of 125k (he has a well paid job and lives with her), but I didn't sign up for her house refurbishment plans and don't want to be dragged into her chaos.  This feels just horrible. I don't want to be cold and cruel. I could be ending my relationship with my mother.  This could be hastening her to financial disaster. The thing is, I don't understand why she just kept spending when she knew she couldn't cover her bills and resent having to bail her out like she's an irresponsible adolescent. 

Please help.

The only way I'd give her any money is to figure out what projects need to be finished on the house, get a plan and then have her sign something that get's you your money back at the closing, as if you are a contractor, KWIM?  Then you'd be stuck helping to finish and sell the house so you wouldn't lose your money and your mother wouldn't go into financial ruin.  A huge amount of work and then who knows what would happen in the market.

If you aren't up to that or you can't give her enough to finish..... then you might need to tell you don't have the funds or energy to solve that problem for her.  Margo

[isittoolate]

i loaned $$ to my N SIL and then when I wanted it back he professed it was a gift. I had to sue him and it took about 15 years, garnisheeing his wages to receive the last payment. THen he lied and told my grandson that I took THEIR noney!

She is out to screw ya, baby! Say NO!

Izzy

[Gaining Strength]

I've just tuned in to this thread - a little late but here is my two cents worth: Don't DO IT!!!!  If it was a good deal she wouldn't be using emotional blackmail.  If she weren't desparate she wouldn't be using emotional blackmail.  If she cared about YOU she wouldn't be using emotional blackmail.

I have been listening to Dave Ramsey on the radio this week.  He is a down to earth financial guy who lost his shirt in no down-payment real-estate when he was young.  He now makes piles of money giving sound advise on how to get out of and stay out of debt.  Today I heard him give a father advise about not giving his 28 year old daughter enough money to pay her cable because it would be enabling her to make bad choices.  Your mother has made some bad choices - she is trying to hold you responsible.  Even if you had NO financial concerns of your own you would not be doing your mother a favor to help her make a poor choice.  She has two other pieces of property which she can use as assets.  She can get a loan based on them.  If the banks think that would be a bad risk why on this green earth should she put you in a worse position than a bank (which could much better afford to make a risky loan) and which has much better tools with which to recoup that loan.  DON'T DO IT!!!

Then try to find some excellent counseling to help you sort out why you feel guilty.  I agree with Bones that she has zero empathy which means that you must learn how to take care of yourself.  It can be very difficult road but you can do it.  Good luck to you.  I give this advise as though I think it is simply a matter of your saying - NO.  I know it is much more difficult than that.  I am being emphatic to help alleviate confusion.  The decision and the follow through are two different actions and the second can be next to impossible for the child of an N - I know, I am one. 

You are in a place where you need support and encouragement and comforting.  She has come to you when you are down and is demanding from you what she can more easily furnish for herself.  I suspect that the two rentals together make up something in the neighborhood of what you have.  Can you imagine what your reaction would be if you were reading this instead of living it .   I think it would be clearer to you what is appropriate and what is not.  Her demand is WRONG.  My heart is with you during this difficult trial. - Gaining Strength

[mudpuppy]

I can think of a lot of bad reasons to loan money, but I believe guilt would have to take the cake.

I can also think of a lot of people to loan money to, but a vitriolic and controlling mother who is 65 and $600,000 in debt and refuses to do those responsible things to fix her own problem, has to top the list as about the worst possible candidate.

However, there is the issue of your inheritance involved. If that is important to you, there is no reason a competent real estate attorney couldn't construct a contract that would safe guard your inheritance and your personal money. If you are truly her last resort you have a lot of leverage to protect yourself and your rightful inheritance. If it happens to help her out at the same time, that's OK too. But be aware that if you do loan to her and she goes under anyway, it will not be pleasant collecting what you are owed. And also be aware of how sneaky Ns are. There may be undisclosed and hidden debts and encumbrances you are not aware of.
 If it were me I'd pretend my phone was disconnected, but there are other considerations which might make it prudent to help yourself out.

mud

[Hopalong]

Mud, it's so good to hear your voice.
I've missed you.

 

Hops