ethical responsibility

[lynn]

Hi all,

Anyone have thoughts on ethical responsibility?

I left my N husband several weeks ago.  Actually, he moved out of the house and into an apartment closer to his employment.  I am in our home with our daughter (age16).  

He is stuggling emotionally.  He is sad, angry, he feels disrespected and mistreated. I suppose that these emotions he is experiencing are fairly normal during a divorce transition.

For the many years we were married, I came to know that he is an emotionally needy, maybe even emotionally unstable person.  (His family has a history of mental illness) He struggles with life in so many ways.... He perceives many of his interactions with people as a threatening... things that people say.... in particular things I said, were perceived by N to be an attack.  He has panic attacts at night.  He twists his perception of life so much that he frequently misses reality by a wide margin. He feels as though he must work and work and work to be successful.  He feels that people do not respect him.

My role in our marriage was to prop him up, talk him down, calm him. I steadied him when he was emotionally shakey.  I calmed him when he had a panic attact at night.  I encouraged him and helped him find reality when he got lost in his mind.

Because of his many other N characteristics, we had few friends.  He had difficult relationship with his family.  They are all cool, distant, N-like people who are far more concerned with telling you their latest, greatest accomplishment, than listening to how you might feel.

I was his sole connection.  I am the one who did the calming, steadying... and right now he is falling apart.  On one hand, I am releaved to be out of the situation.  Our relationship was damaging to me.  With the change, I feel freedom, hope, a beginning sense of happiness.  I do not miss him.  I have not once longed to be back together.

On the other hand, I am concerned about N.  I was his "caretaker" for so many years that I continue to feel the responsibility.  If he really is mentally ill.  If his emotional and mental problems continue to grow after our divorce... if he hurts himself.  If he falls apart.  What is my ethical and moral responsibility to this man that I cared for for so many years?  In this world of disconnected, self-serving people... what responsibility do we have to the people we marry?  To the people in our lives who are incredibly difficult and destructive, but who have tremendous needs of their own?  Where is the line?  

struggling with my heart,
lynn

[Portia]

You could try: “N, I continue to be worried and concerned about you. What are your biggest problems at the moment? Can I help you with them? Can anyone else help you?”

Then listen.

Decide whether only you can help him, or whether someone else could. Then decide if you are willing and able to help him. It’s impossible to decide anything about what is good for someone else, without involving them. And you may not want to do that!

Very difficult question. And my answers are rotten, sorry. But please don’t beat yourself up by imagining what he’s going through: it may be different to what you think, and what he tells you. Best, P

[write]

what responsibility do we have to the people we marry? To the people in our lives who are incredibly difficult and destructive, but who have tremendous needs of their own? Where is the line?


Hi Lynn

its difficult isn't it.
Especially when you have children in common and you still want them to have a functioning Dad.

You can't take responsibility for him: he can only change himself.

My husband fell apart when I said he needed to move out. It was very difficult for me not to capitulate. I just kept saying he had to sort himself out and we couldn't live like this any more.

Now he is taking ad s and seeing a psychiatrist, and doing pretty well compared to before.

Do you still talk with your husband? You could suggest these things, without taking responsibility for organising/ participating?

Take care of yourself.

[Gingerpeach]

Dear Lynn,

I hear your pain and concern, and want to say, "Of course, you are right, we must help these poor people that we have loved."  But, you know, all of those years that you did help him, prop him up, etc. didn't really help in a way that helped him be a healthy husband for you.  This is not criticism, it was an impossibility.

It may have helped him not fall apart, but in the process it allowed you to be damaged.  It's all part of the N feeding off the non-N.  And the Ns choose us for exactly that reason....because they know somehow that we will permit it.  It's a perfect little symbiosis for some time, until we wake up and realize that it is at the expense of OUR health, OUR sanity and OUR souls.

You HAVE been responsible, done the caretaking for what appears to be many years.  I don't think that that responsibility entails sacrificing your entire life.  Your NH is an adult and at some point must take responsibility for himself, whatever the outcome.

It is precisely because you were such a good Nwife, that you are worrying about this.  We mistakenly assume the responsibility for the N's happiness and health.  You are still doing this.  And it is not, never has been, and never will be your responsibility.  No one can really ever "make" another person happy or better.  This is why he is still the way he is.  

Suggest therapy for him.  He may choose to try and help himself or he may choose to fall apart.  But this is HIS choice.  Please, for YOUR health, make it clear that he is in control of his own health and happiness.  

Ethically, don't you think that you have a responsibility to yourself?  And to your children? It doesn't appear to be possible to be ethically responsible for everyone.  Without completely sacrificing yourself that is. And if you're a mess, where does that leave the kids?  I think that the whole martyr thing is extremely over-rated.  

I am glad for you that you have chosen life over the slow blood-sucking death that is living with an N.

[el123]

Lynn, What a difficult situation!  I know that feelling of not knowing what your responsibility is.    Feeling badly that there is someone who you love hurting and not doing anything about it yet knowing that there truly IS nothing that you alone can do.  It is, truly, his own path that he must walk.   You do seem to care deeply and that is a great quality.  The flip side of it is that it probably makes you hyper-compassionate towards your N which makes it extra hard to totally cut it off.  Especially when you see him/know he is hurting so badly.    I agree 100% with what Jacmac wrote:

 "sometimes the best "help" you can give another is to not help them at all, and to allow them to help themselves. In fact, sometimes "helping" is in fact, enabling."

It's so hard to truly "get" this (at least it is for me!!).  I too am struggling with this with both my N mother and N MIL.  Take care, -El

[Anonymous]

Lynn,

You've been his caretaker/ therapist for so long that you feel it is unethical to resign from the job. Well, it isn't unethical. Your responsibility is to your daughter and to yourself. He is a grownup. Even if he has some mental problems, he is responsible for himself! He knows how to see a doctor! He isn't completely psychotic and helpless. You will find that he will survive without you! He really will. I had a helpless, troubled husband once, and he is surviving without me.  Don't cave in to the rescuing impulse. You'll be back in the soup in no time.

bunny

[pandora]

Lynn,

I struggled with the ethical implications of this too.  In fact, if the evidence of my H's infidelity and lying had not become just too overwhelming, I would probably still be there.  

But the Narcissism and abuse is a valid reason to leave, even if your marriage didn't have those other issues.  Do you think you could ever have a normal and supportive marriage with him?  And believing that staying with him will damage you is also a very good reason to leave.  You have given many years to this man already, and I am sure that you have done all you could to make your marriage work.  Just the fact that you are struggling with this now, and even thinking of HIS pain shows this.  

When I was struggling with this, I found it very helpful to talk to a pastor, if you have any religious faith, maybe that would help you.  

Hang in there!

Pandora

[Lizbeth]

Lynn, you seem like such an incredibly nice person.  I commend you for your sympathy and empathy towards your N.

But people have to grow up and stand on their own two feet.  Grown people who do not do so only suck the life out of those around them who have to prop them up.  I tried for 7 years with my second N husband and he was destroying me and my sons.  Therapist told me he could get better "If he wanted to."  But no, it's easier to take your misery out on those around you who love you.  I have been divorced from him for many years now and my youngest, his son (who is now 25) is just beginning to get disgusted with the never ending whining of his father about how lonely he is, etc.  My son told him that he was tired of hearing it.  He had a family, he threw it away with his behavior, his inability to participate in getting better,  and desire to shirk all responsibility.  Now that he is alone, he still isn't happy and is "lonely."  My son is his only remaining supply and is finally tired of hearing it.  He told him to shut up about his problems and get off his "aZZ" and out of his apartment and do something about it instead of complaining.  He doesn't want to hear it any more.  

Point I want to make is enabling these people, even out of love, does no good, they will end up destroying you and your family in one way or another.  You have nothing to feel guilty about, even though I did for a time after my x-N left and his downward spiral sped up.   He wanted everyone to feel sorry for him and deliberately took drugs and drank so that he could excuse his increasingly violent and anti-social behavior.  I stopped feeling guilty then and realized this is what was going to happen whether I was in his life or not, only I and my sons would be the ones to pay instead of the N.   I tried to help him, not undestanding the true nature of his illness, and got nothing but continuing grief for it.  You can offer to find help for him if he is interested, but remove yourself from the actual helping, as the others suggest.  To do anything else will just keep you on the merry-go-round in one form or another.   They are the ones who break the marriages vows with their behavior towards their families and they feel no remorse, no matter what they say.   But it is hard to stop caring when you have been doing it for so long.

Lizbeth

[Rojo]

Wow, Lynn.  You are obviously a terrific person and your husband is very lucky to know you.  The level of compassion you still have is utterly inspiring, especially after what I'm sure were years of heartache for you.

What to do?  In my humble opinion, let him fend for himself.  I'm 100% convinced that these people know, way, way, deep down, that the problem really lies with them.  If there's anything we are obligated to do it's to make them face themselves on their own by not facing things for them.

Seems to me you have your own life to live now, with a daughter who needs her mom more than anyone else.  He has no business trying to draw your focus away from her when he's darned well old enough to take care of himself.

I've heard several people who are recovering from an N contaminated relationship say that they worry about what the N might do to themselves.  Lynn, I think this sort of worry is residue from a carefully crafted, designed for maximum feed-their-need situation these N's like to create.  He needs you to worry about him and he'll put out every signal he can to make you think the worst if you don't give in to what he wants from you.  He of all people knows how to play on your compassionate nature.  It sounds like he's working overtime trying to suck you back in.  Don't help him do that.

I wish you and your daughter every good thing.

God bless,

Rojo

[lynn]

To everyone, Once again, thank you for helping me through a most difficult time.  Your willingness to respond to my need, your heartfelt suggestions and concern touch me and warm my heart.  I am happy that there are people like you in the world.  You give me hope.

I'd like to respond to a few specific comments:

My husband fell apart when I said he needed to move out. It was very difficult for me not to capitulate. I just kept saying he had to sort himself out and we couldn't live like this any more.

Now he is taking ad s and seeing a psychiatrist, and doing pretty well compared to before.

write, I hope that this happens.  It is the best outcome.  That through this process learning occurs for everyone.  I'm glad that your x made the transition and is on a better path.

You HAVE been responsible, done the caretaking for what appears to be many years. I don't think that that responsibility entails sacrificing your entire life

Gingerpeach,  you're right.  This is the conclusion I eventually reached.  That to stay in the relationship ment that I must sacrifice my entire life.  I made that choice.... but it is a difficult choice for me to make.

sometimes the best "help" you can give another is to not help them at all, and to allow them to help themselves.

jacmac and several others who had a similar comment.  I know this is true and I am trying to have faith that staying away is the best help.

Do you think you could ever have a normal and supportive marriage with him?

pandora, no.  never.  He is so emotionally reactive.  He is intensely aware of how he feels and very unaware of how others feel.

And finally, this may sound really sappy, but thank you to everyone who said that they thought I might be a nice person.  Staying uninvolved is hard and feels mean.  This process is unfamiliar to me.  Hearing that you found something nice about me in my post ... at a time when my actions result in such N-emotion and N-pain.... makes me feel bouyant and hopeful that there are people in the world who can accept nice gestures and appreciate the person who offers them.  

with gratitude,
your friend,
lynn

[write]

write wrote:
My husband fell apart when I said he needed to move out. It was very difficult for me not to capitulate. I just kept saying he had to sort himself out and we couldn't live like this any more.

Now he is taking ad s and seeing a psychiatrist, and doing pretty well compared to before.

write, I hope that this happens. It is the best outcome. That through this process learning occurs for everyone. I'm glad that your x made the transition and is on a better path.

what I will say Lynn is: I didn't follow the advice of many 'experts'. I told my husband what I thought was wrong with him, and I repeated it many times even though it caused rows, and I stayed with him until the point he admitted it and went for help.

I saw it as a disability & although I am not responsible and I don't want to take care of him I still wanted to behave kindly where I could.

I never felt codependent and continued my own therapy and my own life but as a parent I felt unable to physically leave until he was in a better state to cope, knowing that he still had to be a parent alongside me.

That has stood me in good stead, for he is parenting effectively, he now treats me better all the time, and is ashamed and apologetic about the abusive way he has behaved. That, I believe is a big factor in how well he will recover/ reconstruct his life.

I see all this positive change and the bitterness and hatred within me evaporates and is replaced by a feeling of the profundity, the complexity and the wholeness of life. I am finding a peace and it feels very good.

Quite often I have read that people who won't leave or let go are in denial, and that may sometimes be the case, but I wanted to say that is by no means always the case, and no matter how painful or impossible at times there can be good outcomes down the road if you follow your heart, while being honest with yourself, and learning to take the best care of yourself.

A candle loses none of its light by lighting another candle.

[lynn as guest]

Hi Write,

What strength you had.  I admire your courage.  Thanks for sharing more of your story.  

My N has moved out of the home.  I do not want to risk entanglement.  Your comments give me more tools to deal with him at the times we speak face-to-face and when we speak on the telephone.

lynn