I'm new and need some support and advice please

[pompom2]

I'm feeling pretty vulnerable right now.  
I have been married for 12 years and with my DH for 17 yrs in total and we have 3 children.  I always knew that he had issues and just put them down to his childhood, as his parents split up when he was young and he more or less rared himself.  He is an interesting guy and to the outside world I would think it all seems rosey as I can't say he is a bad person as such but then I am very patient.

However, 10 days ago we had a row which we don't do much, we might bicker but not full scale rows but that could be down to me keeping the peace.  This one made me realise that apart from him never ever accepting responsibility for his actions he actually has no empathy.  We didn't talk for a week, which use to happen in the early days, but hasn't happened for years.  Anyway off I went and googled "lack of empathy" and my world fell apart and one big jigsaw puzzle came together for me.  I came across Narcissistic Personality Disorder and as I read down through all the traits I recognised almost each and everyone of them as characteristics of my DH.  The tears ran down my face as I realised that this was a disorder and no matter what I do or say he will never change and possibly could get worse as the years go on.  His father is an extreme case.

The traits I recognised are:
1. Never accepts responsibility
2. Never says sorry or if he does he doesn't sound convincing
3. Very negative about incidents and people
4. Never listens, just tries to take apart what I am saying and "win" the argument
5. Everything is about how it will effect him and not anyone else including the family
6. Worries constantly about money and worries excessively about general stuff where he can hardly function
7. Total routine, I cannot call him and ask him to jump up and do something for me
8. No initiative - he must be told to do practically everything
9. Procrastinates all the time
10. Boredom - he would sit around the house all day long if let - reading the news/sport.  However he will never sit doing nothing.
11. Superior in opinion
12. Treats the children as if they are adults and expects them to act like adults
13. Gets me to be responsible for everything and would let me do everything for him
14. Uses people when ever possible - but not to a very noticible extent
15. NO EMPATHY
16. No treats for me - Christmas and Birthday are always a disaster there will be a pressie sometimes and card but just about
17. Criticises needlessly
18. Anger seems to be his only other emotion other than happy.
19. Serious intimacy issues - eyes shut and seems to be in another world, when our babies were born the midwives were surprised when he took off out of the room to ring everyone instead of spending a few minutes with me.

Ok here is the good stuff.........
1. He does do everything I ask him but will never offer to help
2. He will never let me down - well apart from emotionally
3. He is a good provider
4. He is good company when not being negative
5. He is good with the children when there is no problems
6. He doesnt tell me lies, or keep things from me, but then there isn't a lot to keep.

This is so hard, I fear now for my children, please tell me if they are rared in a loving environment they will turn out to be good people.  Is it worth reading the books or will I just upset myself more or learn ways to bring him out of his dark hole.  I was happy until 10 days ago, I use to manage my DH and I don't take any of his crap.  But the same issues keep coming up as he doesn't take them on board.  

We had it out the other night, or at least I did, and told him about his disorder and of course he knew about N because as described he has a very high IQ.  But I was talking a load of rubbish according to him but he claimed he is going to change, but I've heard that before.  He doesn't know how.

So my questions are:
I am a big advocate of complimentary therapies - is there a recommended one that I could get him to try.  I do think he would try if it meant we could be happier
Can people have happy lives living with a N - I am now questioning if I was happy, but I do think I was.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I do love him but I now accept there is a gap emotionally.  He works odd hours and when tired the negativity seems to manifest itself.

Any suggestions would be great, as I can't get this out of my head.

[dandylife]

Pompom2,
Hi and welcome.
Your situation resonates with me - I had similar but with more glaring behavior issues with my NH. He had anger, intimidation issues. He would melt into a tantrum if he didn't get his way. I left him and we divorced. He got some help through counseling but not the standard route I guess. It was like my leaving was a slap on the head for him and he did realize he needed to step up and take some responsibility for his behaviors. I returned to him. We still struggle with some things, but his anger behavior is gone, replaced by a stony resolved silence except when it leaks out into hostility.

What I would suggest is that YOU get some counseling re: abusive relationships so that you can recognize the behavior to watch out for and how to deal with it. Don't take on his "stuff". Suggest counseling for him and hopefully, he will be willing to improve - sounds like you think that's the case.

Some of the best advice I got from my counselor was that our partners do not have to meet ALL our needs. Decide what you want from the relationship and focus on those things. Take care of YOU, and make sure you are feeding your healthful, happy needs so that your life has some balance.

Once you've had a chance to meditate upon your situation, you can decide if the relationship has enough good stuff to keep it going. You will find that you have alot of strength and resolve.

Dandylife

[pompom2]

Dandylife
thanks so much for your reply. 

I'm beginning to think there are a lot more N's in this world by the hour.
I feel like everything has changed in the last few days.  I am judging everything he is saying and analysing it.  He is never physical with me or never says horrible things to me as such, but yesterday the kids gave him a t-shirt for Father's Day and he didn't want it, didn't like it and said he just doesn't wear that type anymore.  No matter what I buy him he rarely likes it.

If I detach myself the relationship will collapse because it is me that keeps it strong, and then of course he would have done nothing wrong and it will be my fault.  He is all so clever in his ways, but when I see the way his Dad operates it scares me that he could in time be as bad.

If I was to be honest my parents had a dominant and passive relationship.  My Dad has N traits but he is a more caring empathetic person and my poor Mother kept the peace and did everything for everyone and still does.  This is where I learnt to be the giver.

I keep getting these moments of bravery where I will not let his attitude upset me but then I think of our lovely kids and I fear the relationship will effect them.

So from now on there is no more keeping the peace and pacifying him, if he doesn't like it he can lump it. ha!

Can you recommend any books for reading, there seems to be few that are worthwhile.  I just feel is there a point in trying if you cannot change or even mellow him.

[dandylife]

The Relationship Cure by Dr. John Gottman and Why Marriages Succeed or Fail, same author.

Dr. John Gottman is my counselor and I can tell you, he's excellent.

His work centers around personal accountability and being open to intimacy with your partner. If you truly want to improve your situation with your husband, these books will help you recognize some of the mistakes both of you have been making. That was one thing I had to learn - he wasn't the only one messing up! I was letting more behavior slide by - so that his brain's response was - well, that must have worked - she didn't seem to get upset. But I was just holding it in and then he'd have the same responses.

Start there, and then you will find out if you will have to do more research on his "bad" behaviors - can they be labeled as abusive? Then I would say move on to books like The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond by Patricia Evans  - although counseling really helped me even more than books. If you think you need it, you probably do and you will feel understood for the first time in your life if you see an abuse specialist. I saw a woman for this part of my counseling and she took me back through all the similar abusive incidents in my life to see the connections and my reactions and how the circle existed. Then they help you move out of the old behaviors and learn new ones. How to set firm boundaries with people so their behaviors will no longer violate you.

You don't have to do this alone.


Dandylife

[gratitude28]

Dear Pompom,
I just wanted to say hello and let you know we are all here to listen and, in many cases, give great advice as Dandy did. My situation is a bit different - I deal with my mother. My parents; however, have been married 40 years... my mother is an N, my dad is not. I cannot figure out their relationship, but they are bitter and mean towards others. Do you think you can continue loving him and maintaining some happiness? I think Dandy gave you a great idea when she suggested figuring out what is important to you. And researching escalating behaviors is a good idea as well.
Please keep posting. It helps you and others here as well.
Love, Beth

[pompom2]

Hi
Thanks so much for your replies and advice and especially CB for your wisdom.  You are right to tell me not to panic after so many years this is all very new to me and while it makes sense that these traits do exist, we have been happy most of the time and I am the center of his world but sometimes that is not a good thing.  He does try and be the best person that he can but he is not aware that he lacks empathy.   It is so frustrating, as I tend to be a fixer, if there is something wrong I do my best to help put it right and it seems there is no solution here.  Before he had all these little traits that were annoying but when I read up on N it suddenly became one big problem, and now I question whether he is capable of loving!! Toxic is a word I have often used with him and it just fits.

At least I now have somewhere to come and talk as it is not exactly a subject you can discuss with your friends.

One other thing the little envelope appears under my name and when you hover you can see my email address, can you guys see this too?

[dandylife]

Hi,
Yes, I can see it (the email). I noticed that alot of times when people sign on as a guest, they will put an address like 1234@yahoo.com or whatever (not a real one).

One other thing I wanted to say about your situation (since it's so similar to mine!): be careful about labels. It wasn't (and isn't) ever effective when I label him as N or talk to him as if he's N. He HATES that and will get almost violently defensive about it.

Talk about specific behaviors instead. ("When you forget my birthday, it makes me feel hurt and sad. I'd like you to take me out to a special dinner next time, okay?") etc, etc.

Dandylife

[mudpuppy]

Hi pompom2,

6. He doesnt tell me lies, or keep things from me, but then there isn't a lot to keep.

I'm certainly no expert, but I am not aware of a single case of actual NPD in which the person was not profoundly and pervasively dishonest. They deceive constantly, whether by overt commision or by secretive omission.
 Your husband may be a real butthead, he may even be impossible to live with, only you know that, but without profound dishonesty, which is always used by the disordered to keep their facade of perfection intact and to harm anyone who threatens that facade, its hard for me to think of him as having NPD.

And if you want to hide your email you have to register and then you are given that option.

mud

[pompom]

I have logged in now so hopefully the email won't show.  Can I get rid of the previous email icons??  

Ok some of the panic that has been inside me is beginning to subside, maybe he is not a fully fledged NPD as mud pointed out there is no lying or deceit and I would be very surprised if he was ever unfaithful, but he still has a lot of the traits.  I do believe it stems from his rearing.

I have to say this is all so strange and yet so familiar.  My DH of course denies he is any of the things I say he is and is very defensive.  So you are right Dandylife in not labelling him, at least to his face.  I know a certain amount of his traits stem from genetic as his father is very much a N - but do you think it was contributed to by the fact his family were very dysfunctional?
I now feel I might have to smother my DS with love and effection, make sure he has a "voice" so that he grows up a throughtful and caring person as he is very like his Dad in ways.
 I know before this last few weeks we were doing very well and he does try and be a good person but I am constantly challenging him and we don't really get personal with each other or maybe we are both thick skinned.

Once again thanks for the help and words of wisdom, at least I know what road I am on now and it is time that I take a look at myself too.  Make sure I start getting out there, as DH would have me at home by his side 24/7 if he could.  

[mudpuppy]

Hi Pom,

I can't see your email now that you are registered. I think CB was referring to when you were sigining in as a guest. I believe only Doc Grossman can delete your guest posts.

I now feel I might have to smother my DS with love and effection, make sure he has a "voice" so that he grows up a throughtful and caring person as he is very like his Dad in ways.

The only way he is going to change is, absent a miraculous intervenion of God, is a profound internal desire on his part to do so. If he has that then it certainly will help if you are supportive. If he doesn't you might as well smother him with a pillow because smothering him with love won't make any difference.

mud

[axa]

Hi and welcome,

I am in there with Mudpuppy.  While XN had "strange" behaviours the two things I believed absolutly about him was that he was honest and would not be unfaithful...........WRONG on both counts.  While he had no great interest in women other than supply he knew this was the thing which would hurt me the most so he was unfaithful, also the lies the lies, the lies, it was only when I left that I got to see the extent of them.

be careful,

sorry I can not be more positive, just my experience

axa

[pompom]

You have all given me so much to think about over the last few days.  Thank you for that.   I now feel in a more stable place.  He knows that I am having trouble with my thoughts and with US and is on his best behaviour.  I have been reading down through some of the other posts and some of it makes me LOL and others make me so sad when I see what other members are going through.  It is all relative.

We are off on vacation soon for 2 weeks so maybe that will help sort us.  I know he is not a fully fledged N but his traits are so frustrating on a daily basis.  Everything is fine as long as it runs smoothly and centres around his routine.  But I suppose what hurts the most is knowing now that he is not able to reach out and probably will never be able.  A family member had a traumatic time recently and when we met up he never mentioned it to her, maybe I shouldn't expect so much.  I know my brother, who I adore, is making comments recently about my H's behaviour and while my H makes a big fuss about my Dad and gets on really well with him, he makes no time for my brothers and that hurts.  He picks and chooses who he makes a fuss of and when he gets on with someone he really gets on well with them, but chooses to cut my bro's off and then that cuts me off as they don't come to visit unless there is a specific reason.

Since I have started reading up on NPD the last 17 years are running through my head and all the times he let me down are clearly in my mind and I am trying to counteract this by remembering the good times but how do I go forward from hear knowing that no matter what I say or do that his traits are here to stay and his ability to love and show effection are minimal and that I am basically being used.

[Hopalong]

Oh Pom, welcome.
Dandy, Beth, CB and Axa have said such wise and hard-won things for you to ponder.

I just want to send you compassion:

I am trying to counteract this by remembering the good times but how do I go forward from hear knowing that no matter what I say or do that his traits are here to stay and his ability to love and show effection are minimal and that I am basically being used

It's such a sad realization. I could add only that I think the most previous gift you could give yourself now in your 3D life is to find a skilled, experienced counselor, and go faithfully, and pour out the pain. That relieves the pressure enough that you can assess more clearly, and think through what kind of healing you need in your life.

In your relationship, it would take two. And that's another question about counseling...as emotionally thickwitted as he is, do you think he would be distressed if he know that the above are your true feelings right now? If he knew how devastated you are, would he be willing to attend marital counseling?

If not, you can...no, you must--begin a healing journey FOR AND ABOUT YOURSELF. Have faith for the journey. As painful as reality is, it is ultimately your friend. And as dark as this time feels, there is light ahead of you. It is there even though it may be hard to imagine right now.

If you learn from all the posts here, you'll surely learn one thing: things change. Life is never static. It drags us forward kicking and screaming. We grow and heal and learn and become strong in spite of ourselves (or more likely, because of ourselves).

You can do it too. And warm welcome here, where you'll have company.

Hopalong