Bullying – when is the line crossed and when to get involved?

[finding peace]

I have a dilemma.  Where do you draw the line at bullying and when, if ever, should you jump in when you see it happening to someone else?

It seems obvious to me that if you see someone bullying a young child, you jump in and put a stop to it immediately.

Similarly, when adults are bullying in a physical manner – it seems pretty clear to me  – you call the cops.

But what about the times when you think someone is being, subtly (or not so subtly) verbally abusive to another person.  Those times when something is said, it sets off warning bells in your mind, but you are not entirely sure it is bullying (maybe it is just the person’s manner)?

Should you jump into the conversation and state what you see (in a nice and pleasant manner) and see what goes down?  Or maybe a better approach would be to note it in your mind and keep watch for future behavior (ie, watch for the pattern.)?  Yet another approach, since bullying reminds me of N’s, would be to ignore it altogether - since it may be just another form of NS?

To me bullying can take a tremendous toll.  I was subjected to so much bullying as a child both within and out of my home.  Bullying to me is a horrible thing to do to another person.  When it occurred within my home, I was taught, very painfully, to just sit by and say nothing, do nothing – turn my head and ignore it when it occurred.  I was also taught to doubt myself when bullying occurred.

To this day, I get very upset when I see bullying, but I am afraid to jump in because of my “early training.”   Is it appropriate for me to jump in, as I believe bullying is extremely harmful and hurtful?  Or is it better to sit back and wait to see how the situation plays out, and jump in only as a last resort?

Lot of confusion here – as you can see (lol).  I just hate bullying in any way shape or form, and feel like I should jump in to help when I see it.

(Also, if anyone has any advice on how to break the fear that keeps me paralyzed from jumping in would be really appreciated!!!!)

Peace

[pennyplant]

Peace, my growing up years were like yours as far as pervasive bullying.  I would say that is what is behind much of my PTSD (that I still  have to deal with more often than I like).

One thing I sometimes do is to go up to the person who has been treated badly and offer a supportive (of them) opinion.  I want them to know that someone else knows the truth.

I am usually unable to "fix" it or get the bully to back down.  Those are skills I never learned and, at those moments, my own fear and anxiety tends to make me pretty incoherent.  I have blasted people at those times and only ended up being the one who looked like an idiot instead of looking like the rescuer I intended to be.  Still battling it to this day, all the damage that was done to me in childhood.

This is a really hard subject for me.  I still don't have as much self-confidence or sense of self-worth as I should and which would help at those times when bullying is going on.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Hi Peace,
Penny's response feels right to me.
I was going to say something similar...about what I'd "do" (writing a fantasy):

Bully makes cutting remark to wound X

I move with deliberateness and engage X's eye contact and say to X very clearly something supportive and kind that contradicts the "feeling" of what it almost sounded like Bully almost said. I don't involve Bully in it at all and don't try to confront. I just address the potential hurt directly. If I have my intention right and just communicate that I'm alert, X is not alone, and I offer support...then I think that works.

Bully will meet a bigger Bully one day.

Hops

[Ami]

Dear Peace,
   I wanted to say this on another thread. You are such a precious person. How you came out so sweet  and so dear from that house of horrors is a testimony to your strength .
    With the bullies thing--- I would say that there could be no hard ,fast rule. Sometimes, you would not want to get involved b/c the person could get violent and the situation could escalate.
   I think that the only thing you could rely on would be your gut b/c each situation would call for different interventions.
    I think that the best scenario would be to get involved and stand up for the underdog,but you would have to have enough  inner strength to do it. So, the answer might be to develop the qualities which will allow you to intervene.
   My son is in a fraternity. he sticks up for the underdog . I am very,very proud. He is strong and well built. He can handle it- emotionally and physically.When he was in high school, he wanted to stand up,but did not have the strength to do so.               Love    Ami
                                                                                                 

[Stormchild]

A fairly effective way of getting the point across is to stop dead in your tracks, look the bully right in the eyes, and say: Excuse me, I'm not sure I heard that correctly. Would you mind repeating what you just said to so and so?

Knowing it's been witnessed, and knowing it's going to be paid close attention to and remembered by that witness, quite often will shut down the game pronto.

Let them save face, if you can; bullies often take revenge on their targets in secret, later, if they're humiliated in public. Especially true of abusive spouses and abusive parents, but also true of abusive employers.

If they mutter that they were only joking, let it go. They probably won't joke like that again when you're there, at any rate.

And yes, absolutely, what Pennyplant said. Affirm the target, privately, if you can. Bullies gaslight like mad, and minimize and deny what they do. The target is going to greatly appreciate any validation they can get.

[Stormchild]

((((((((((finding peace))))))))))

[Ami]

Ditto Storm---((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Peace))))))))))))))))))))))))))              Love   Ami

[Hopalong]

Hi Peace,
I dont remember doing that exact thing. I remember another thing a couple years ago.

I saw a gang of teenaged boys downtown ... they were frolicking, yelling, just full of themselves and testosterone. They didn't exude menace or I would've been hiding (I'm a chicken) but lots of swagger. It was early spring and I think they were high on sunshine. Anyway, I was across a lane from them when a large woman was walking down the street, minding her own business...and they began to swarm behind her, jumping up and down and mocking her heavy body, laughing and hooting, egging each other on. She kept her chin up and kept walking while they taunted her.

I was no good to her or I would've run her down to offer sympathy. But a little bit later they wound up skateboarding across the area where I was. I thought a while, and then I went over to them and said to the oldest one, Do you mind if I ask you something? He said okay. I said, you look like a leader, and I honestly want to understand something about young men. He said, yeah, how can I help ya? I said, do you ever feel like people just look at you and see young guys, they must be bad people, stuff like that? He said yeah. I said, I think that's not fair. He goes, that's right.

I said, when I saw you chasing after that fat woman who was just taking care of her business, I think that really hurt her. I saw the look on her face, and I wondered if you realized how bad she felt. And I just wondered, do they really hate women? Bingo.

He says, oh NO, I love the ladies, I love 'em! I'd never do anything to hurt a woman. I was just teasing her, you know? I love her. Yes. I love the woman (he's looking all "leadery"--his guys are watching). So I just said very very sincerely, and quietly, "I was watching her face. And I don't think she was feeling loved. Thanks for talking to me."

And then I went off, and they kind of regrouped and went away too.

Hops

[JanetLG]

Hops,

They'll remember that for the rest of their lives. What a brilliant way to tackle it.

Janet

[debkor]

Hey Peace,

This is something I go over with my kids all the time.  When do you jump in there and help someone else.

Well sad to say but this day an age you just don't know whats going to happen.  There are so many crazy people now.
They don't fight with words or fists anymore.  They pull guns, knives and that's over maybe thinking someone gave them a dirty look that didn't. Or shut up B*tch mind your own business. Boom!

Very difficult to say what to do anymore.

I remember being on the train coming home and some guy annoying and trying to bully me. He had me in an arm lock and I was trying to get away.  It was only him and me in the car at the time.  I saw another guy walking coming through our car.
He said you ok. I said no tell him to let me go.  He said let the girl go.  The guy who was holding me said, keep walking bud,
I was dying and hoping this guy would not move on.  He did not.  He stood there and said, LET HER GO!  The guy told him to keep walking he was a black belt in Karate and he would whoop his butt.  The nice/good guy said, Oh yeah!  can you fight BULLETS! and whipped out a badge. He was an undercover cop. 


Deb

[sea storm]

At the Fall Fair in my little town I volunteered to paint faces for Halloween. The little girls wanted their faces painted as fairies and princesses. The little boys wanted the goriest, bloodiest, scariest faces I could muster. These very angelic little boys would ask for Dracula, or Werewolf or some other demon. I had a pretty good sample of about 40 kids altogether.

I asked a few people why the little boys want to be scarey.  I finally got an answer,'Little boys want to feel powerful". They really do. Even nice ones.

The bully thing is not black and white and it is complex. There are so many underlying mores in our society. I mean we create bullies. They are bullies one minute and victims the next. Shaming the bully can be just another form of bullying. It is easy to say step forward and give em a blast. I don't think this works. The bully does not like to be shamed in public. Plus anger begets anger.
Defensiveness begets more defensiveness.

Say one is at work and sees a colleague who is targeted by a narcissistic boss. Calling the game would mean your job. Rarely does anyone intercede when this happens in a patriarchal hierarchy. Those who are silent collude with the bully. I like to think I stand up for the victimized but there is a price to pay.

Sea storm

[bigalspal]

Hi Peace,
I HATE bullying! I have & will jump in, as long as I feel it's not extremely dangerous to the victim or myself. Then I will find an alternate route.
I was bullied horribly as a child until about 8th grade. After that, I FOUGHT BACK! 
I blame my NMother for this & I'll tell you WHY. (my torment started about 5th grade)
She sent me to school in the worst clothes & shoes. I was NEVER "in style". Plus, she thought taking a bath everyday was wasting water, so I probally stunk! I can still hear the cries of "BO (body oder), BO!!" I had oily skin anyway & developed, in the words of my tormentors, "Pizza Face".
Oh, I hated school! The teachers were no better! They fawned over the popular girls & boys. If I wasn't being bullied, I was being ignored.
Here's something I'm ashamed of to this day. A new girl came to school & she looked like me, but she smelled even worse. Her parents raised Yorkies & the raised them all over the house. They did not clean the house, so she reeked of DOG. Anyway, I'll never forget how I turned on her & made her cry. I guess I wanted her to be & feel lower on the social rung than me. I made her cry & call her mom. By the way, her parents were NICE people.
I thought about this for about a day & was horribly ashmed of myself!   
So, the next day at school I marched over to her & begged forgiveness! I couldn't BELIEVE how mean I had been. Thankfully she forgave me & we became best friends until we both married & moved away from town. She's the GRETA I talk about in my sleepwalking story.
I tell you that school was a nightmare! When I had kids of my own, I ALWAYS made sure they had nice things to wear & that they could get their hair done. My oldest daughter was VERY popular, but my youngest daughter was not! But, my husband & I went down to the school many times to defend her! And, her sister, (the popular one) fought for her all the time). She developed acne & body oder, too. Not because we wouldn't let her take a bath, but because she needed prescription deodorant. WE took her to the doctor for both! You bet we did! My husband became their stepfather when these girls were young & I will love him forever for fighting for them. To this day, both my girls talk about how he always made sure they had nice things so they could fit in. What a guy! 
Anyway peace, I was terribly hurt by this.
Wanna hear something funny?
After I became a DJ, we had an event at the river on the radio station's party barge.
Well guess who walks up? 2 of my worst male bullies! They realize it's me & they BOTH ask me out! I had grown into my own by then. Well, I sent them packing in short order! They both said "Hey, we realize we were "KINDA" mean to you in school". KINDA. my ASS!
That felt so good!
So, yes, I will try to help whoever is being bullied.
Love you guys!
Bigalspal 

[lighter]

Last summer I witnessed a young mother suffering the humiliation of her young son's refusal to leave the sand box when she said it was time to go.  She just kept spiraling downward and finally slapped his leg and began threatening to hit him more and never take him back to the park. 

The child, maybe 3yo, was becoming hysterical and his mama was getting more frustrated and trying to put on his shoes, he wouldn't help and kept taking them off..... and on her threats went.

I couldn't just sit where I was and I knew she might take a poke at me or tell me to go to hell but that little boy's crys were breaking my heart.  I started walking to them, not knowing what the heck I was gonna do or say when I got there.... it was a terrible position to be in. 

When I got to them I ignored mama completely and began speaking to the boy. 

I said that the next time he went to the park with his mama, she would give him a ten minute warning so he could finish up his project.  I took a shoe from mama and put it on him.  She seemed grateful.  The boy stopped crying and listened.

I said that he would get to go to the park more often if he listened to his mama when it was time to leave.  I finished putting on his shoes and they left.  She was quiet and still horrified and I kept ignoring her and letting her be invisible in her humiliation.

I sincerely hope she learned something and didn't do anything awful to him when they got home.  I just couldn't sit there and part of me thought it wouldn't be a very responsible thing to get into a fist fight over something like that in front of my own children.  You never know when you approach someone how they're going to take it. 

As for adults bullying adults.... I usually can't keep my mouth shut then either.  If I can think of somehthing witty and lighthearted to say, that demeans the bully and cuts them down to size, I'll do that.  Something so very subtle, they have to really think about it and still can't quite figure out if they've just been insulted or not, lol.   

I might make light of the bullies remarks and boost the person being bullied. 

In the spring I met a young mother and her bf, who demeaned her terribly in front of us.  He was invested in gaining my friendship and he was barking up the wrong tree.  I kept changing the subject back to his money troubles and problem finding financing,which is what he was trying to do all week long.  He ended up leaving and I was glad to see him go.

When he left and it was just her and me and another woman friend of mine..... I turned to her and said, "Yes, it was obviouse and you can't continue living like that in front of your daughter."  She was horrified but knew exactly what I meant.  This guy was criticizing her all night long and wouldn't let her go to the pool alone or talk to other people.  Indeed, the next day he made her go to all his business meetings with her 2 yo dd in towe, and not the pool bc she'd see us and other people. 

I don't know what happened to them.  She didn't seem to have the will or strength to break out of her situation, which was comfortable aside from being criticized all the time. 

I know this, we can't stop bullying when we see it for longer than we're physically standing there.   When they left and went home, I'm quite sure she paid a terrible price for my transgressions against him and his pride.  She'll have to learn to protect herself and her daughter.  If she can't, my stepping in just meant more trouble for her. 

We talked about her going back to school and his refusal to let her....  I tried to help her think in terms of planning for the future and getting her education FOR HERSELF and her child's sake.  I don't know it if sunk in.  He was pretty much dominating her in front of us, what was it like for her behind closed doors?