Too Messy - Hold it in

[gratitude28]

CH,
I think it's great that your daughter wants to open up and share these thoughts with you. I don't think children can differentiate between time all the time, so a big incidence might be equal to "a lot" in some way to her.
(((((((((((((((((((every clear thought leads to freedom))))))))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth

[Certain Hope]

CH,
I think it's great that your daughter wants to open up and share these thoughts with you. I don't think children can differentiate between time all the time, so a big incidence might be equal to "a lot" in some way to her.
(((((((((((((((((((every clear thought leads to freedom))))))))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth

(((((((((Beth))))))) thanks! I think it's great, too. And you're right about time... shoot, I have trouble differentiating it on occasion. A minute can seem like a year, depending on the situation. It makes sense to me that, at that age, "alot" may speak more to the amount of impact an event had on a child - and maybe how much she dreaded it happening again - than the actual # of incidents.  All I know is, what's brought out into the open loses its power to get moldy     Good to read you!

Love,
Hope

[Sela]

Thanks for your reply, Hope, for taking the time to explain and for letting bygones be bygones.
I'm sorry for what happened before.....especially for my part in it.  I could have tried harder to be patient and to get my own fears under better control.  I should have used nicer words and said I was sorry, long before now.  I can be a dope sometimes.  Sorry for not doing better.

I hope you have mainly.....peaceful days! (you can laugh at me later, when that perimen. thingy hits me!).

I guess what I mean by maybe I should blame more on my FOO is that maybe I've let them off too easily, sometimes, in the past when I tried to be too responsible for everything, thus making the mistake of allowing them to keep behaving toward me in the same destructive manner, without ever making them accountable?  I dunno.  I allowed it, so I see it as my fault.  I agree with you that blaming should be kept to a minimum, for special cases like the one you described where the person was infected with a deadly disease deliberately by another.......I guess especially for criminal behaviour?

Your mother sounds like a piece of work.

She is very proud of her own decisions... now if only the rest of the world would conform to them

I think it's a good idea to give oneself credit for doing the right thing.  It's the second part of that sentence that shows how closed minded, controlling and superior she sounds.  No wonder you think all of your decisions are bad.  How could anyone live up to her requirements?  How could anyone be as good as her at making decisions?  Ofcourse yours would be inferior!!  How silly of you to give yourself credit for the slightest smart move!  She would simply crush that idea, I bet?

So it's a constant battle, to uncover the old junk and get it out of the way, to make more room for the new.

I love the way you worded that!  It is isn't it?  I think it's a process that takes a long time......maybe even a life time? (in my case)  Or else...I'm just slow. 

I do think it's important to keep in mind that

"God don't make no junk!"

(I can't remember who said that but it stuck in my head).

So no matter what, it's ok to see what's not wrong with us (usually referred to as having good self-esteem, whatnot).  It's something..... I think, a lot of people who come from backgrounds where others have done their best to dominate them.....have to work at.  Another lifetime project eh?

she is merciless in her judgement of them

Please have mercy on you.....be kinder to yourself than she must have been?

(((((((Hope))))))))

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Sela,
 
You're welcome.
I figure that bygones are bygones, whether I decide to let them be... or not.
So I can't comment on what you should have done in the past... that's not my place. I only know that the past and tomorrow belong exactly where they are, because sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

My own failings are more than enough to keep me occupied on a daily basis.
My Scripture verse of the year, it seems, is "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
As far as I'm concerned, you have nothing for which to apologize to me.
You were where you were, you are where you are, and that is none of my business.
Back then, there was alot of discussion about what constitutes a genuine apology.
At this point, I think that the thing to do is to let that go... not pretending as though there was never a problem, but in full awareness that there will likely be many more problems, each one of which will need to be met with grace, mercy, and firm boundaries.
I'm just thankful to not be so loaded with fear as I was back then.

I have a t-shirt which says, "I don't do drama" So in the most undramatic manner possible, I do apologize for my own lack of consistency and directness in the past, and I pledge to practice forthrightness in every post, by the grace of God.
And yes, I do have mainly peaceful days... and I can assure you that I won't be laughing when it's your turn.

About blaming... if it is going to result in punishment, then I think that blaming must be avoided at all cost, when it comes to our families and others, as well (barring criminal behaviour).  I don't think that it's my place to let anyone off or keep anyone on the proverbial hook...
in fact, I think that most folks put themselves on or off that hook, based on alot of factors which have nothing to do with me.
(Reference my verse of the year noted above)

Yes, my mother is a piece of work... but then aren't we all, each in our own unique way?

I understand what you've said about giving oneself credit.
I personally do not use that method because of the scorekeeping inherent in that philosophy.
If I choose to give myself credit, then I must also choose to give myself debits.
Knowing that lands me in the red prevents me from doing so... to myself and to others.

It's not that I think all of my decisions are bad.
What I've said is that even my good decisions have been made for the wrong reasons, which more than cancels them out.
"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." I'm speaking from a spiritual perspective here... because that has become my reality to a far greater extent than whether or not my mother agrees with my decisions.
Some of her disapproval has been quite valid.
Some of her approval (and there's been a speck of that) has been quite invalid.
Her approval or disapproval have become moot in my mind.
If what I choose doesn't line up with God's will in my life, then it doesn't matter who praises or devalues it... it's wrong.

I think you're right that it takes a lifetime to work through this process of rubbish-removal... but that's a blessing, really.
If the Lord revealed to us all of our failings, all at once, who could stand?
Each glimpse of the lack within me gives me an opportunity to lean more heavily on Christ, rather than on myself.
On the flip side, each attempt to see what's not wrong with me presents a choice - do I congratulate myself and put a gold star on my scorecard or do I thank God for Christ in me, the hope of glory?

About self-esteem -
The way I look at it - I've never been commanded to love myself, only to love God first, and then my neighbor as myself.
There's an implied "given" in that directive... that each person naturally loves himself or herself - that self-love is not something which needs to be taught. I believe this.
And I believe that even the sort of self-degradation which I may have placed upon myself when I  suffered from what this world terms "low self esteem" was - in itself - a warped form of self love. After all... it focused on self - and where I'm focused is where my heart is - is where my treasure is.

I don't know that I can explain this further, just now, but your expression that I should have mercy on myself and be kinder... well, I appreciate the thought, Sela. But I'm better than okay, thanks My route to healing just doesn't follow that path.

Hope

[Sela]

Hi again Hope,

I'm glad you have your stuff worked out (spiritually and otherwise).   It's a llearning process eh?  I'm not sure about much at all, when it comes to what scripture means.  I rely on God but I keep in mind that He helps those who help themselves, and so again, I take responsibility for my choices (good and bad and if He is keeping score, I guess I'll have to take whatever consequences I am owed....but I just don't think God will do it like that.  I think He knows our intentions.....and will take them into account.  For me to learn though.....I have to keep score or I'll just keep making the same errors, which I'd like not to do).  You know what's best for you, so I that's a good thing. 

As far as being consistent and direct, I don't think you have anything to apologize for.  As far as my not having anything to apologize for?  I think I behaved rudely and impatiently and let my fears rule, so I am sorry for that and will try hard not to let that happen again.  I would like to see no problems between us.

I'm glad you don't need to learn to self-love......that you believe it comes naturally.   I'm not sure everyone naturally does that or believes that.  When people are put down, over and over, especially by those who are supposed to be safe (by their parents during their childhood--even by their spouse).....I think it can have a big effect and sometimes they start to believe what they are being told, and therefore do not self-love much at all.  If they manage to escape the situation, it takes awhile to relearn...so to speak, to be kind to themselves etc.

I was lucky, in a way, because I'm so darn stubborn.  I would often refuse to "hear" critical putdowns and tell myself, in my head:  "That's not true!  Don't listen to that!" (if it was particularly nasty stuff coming from my angry parents or my ex).    Not always though.  Sometimes, it just hurt and sometimes, I believed what I was hearing and felt bad about myself for stuff that really...was not true.

Anyhow, I agree that we are all unique and ya.....it would be tough to process all of our flaws at once (and maybe ....our heads would fill up and explode....if all of our wonderful qualities were revealed to us at once too??  ).

I think it's important to be kind to ourselves.  I can beat myself up better than anyone, sometimes.

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Sela,

I don't feel that I have my stuff worked out, but I do know that there's been great progress. I'm not so fearful, I have a great desire to interact with people and exchange thoughts, and the little wisps of anger which do still come along are very short-lived.
It's definitely a learning process and, for me, it's been a matter of learning that I can do absolutely nothing apart from Christ.
What I rely upon is the fact that I don't have to keep a handle on all my stuff, because God has it all in His hands.
He has it - to the extent that I put it there, for His keeping.

Please do excuse me if my tone comes across cyberspace as preachy when I speak of these things.. that is really not my intent.
The thing is - Scripture and spiritual matters stir up great passion within me,
because these have been the vehicles, so to speak, of my renewal and the catalysts for so very many changes within me.

Trying to explain further...
I do not understand all of the Bible, but there are enough crystal clear truths that've settled into my spirit to rest assured that God reveals just exactly what His children need to know, at the very moment they require that knowledge, according as they submit themselves to Him.
So I read and study the Bible because I've seen evidence of the truth that faith comes by hearing
and hearing by the Word of God.

Which reminds me -
One of the Scripture websites I've used in study has the Bible available in numerous translations and also provides various study tools.
It even has a page listing oft-quoted verses which are not in the Bible.
The saying: "God helps those who help themselves" is one of those.
Now I don't mention this to declare that your beliefs are wrong, Sela; but only to clarify that - imo - that particular phrase is entirely unScriptural.  Over and over in the Bible, what I see are examples of people who knew that they could not save themselves, so they turned to God in utter dependence, and were delivered.
That would be me.
It's not that I expect God to solve all of my problems while I sit back and eat bon bons. It's that I know He is faithful to guide and protect me as I stay close to Him in His word, in prayer, and in obedience to His direction.

I also do not believe that good intentions ever delivered a person.
I have seen many people with good intentions, who've remained lost... including myself, in the past.
In my view, it is calling upon the name of the Lord which results in salvation.
From my own experience, which I believe lines up with the Bible, it was my recognition of how very far short I fall from the perfection of God & how very desperately I need Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour
which brought me to the point of calling on Christ's name.

Re: self-love - I'm thinking that you and I are defining love differently, in this context.
I don't know how to clarify this part just yet, except to say
that if one aspect of "love" might be considered an intense level of interest...
well, I know alot of folks who don't "like", or respect, or seem to value themselves, but they're intensely interested in getting their own desires met.
Again, I was one.
Those desires were improperly focused, that's for sure... nonetheless they were more about "me" than about the "other".
Attempting to get needs met was the driving force behind my pouring myself into another person - and that is self-love, imo.

Self respect is another issue entirely, imo, and must be based on the knowledge that every single human being is created in the image of God.
And "liking" self... well that comes along with getting a firm foundation in identification with Christ and then walking in integrity, fessing up after a stumble, repenting,  getting up, and continuing on in His footsteps.

Whew... again, sorry if that came out like sermonizing. I tried to keep it in a level tone, but not having posted much in awhile,
it's hard to know how to phrase things. Thank you for allowing me to make the effort to explain my beliefs.

I do understand what you've expressed about your method of recognizing critical put-downs and rejecting them.
Personally I never had an opportunity to practice that, because the put-downs were generally not verbal.

I guess that's why I place so much value now in trying to learn to express myself... like here, for instance.
I like to hear what other people are thinking and I enjoy running my thoughts past others for feedback.
And I appreciate constructive criticism more and more, because I do struggle to make myself clear and I'd rather keep plugging away at it then allow a misunderstanding to fester. Where I used to react to misunderstandings with exasperation, I can now take them as a more of an adventurous sort of challenge, because God's convinced me that neither my identity nor my value are dependent on someone else's opinion of me.
Besides, one of the more earth-shattering revelations to me throughout this process has been that I cannot reasonably expect to please all of the people, all of the time
Funny how I'd thought that was supposed to be my goal. Not any more. That knowledge is what's allowed me to come back here and try again to post and share.

About kindness...  I think I agree with you, but maybe in a bit of a different way.
I think it's important that I be kind to others ...and allow God be kind to me.
The more of God's love I receive, the more I have to pass on to others... and I can only benefit in that process.
I think the Bible calls it having the love of God shed abroad in your heart by the Holy Spirit.
Anyhow, sometimes He uses other people to show His kindness to me. Sometimes He uses me to show other people His kindness.
I just like the way He does things!
And I know that I have alot of work to do yet... I think because I've not had many examples of gentleness to model in my life...
but God's been good to send a couple such gentle souls across my path here in 3-D life as well as online... so I'm grateful... and I'm learning.

Thanks for the discussion, Sela!

Hope

[Sela]

Hi Hope,

It does sound like you have quite a lot figured out and that's good to hear.  I am in no way criticizing you.  Thankyou for taking the time to explain your beliefs.  I'm not going to explain mine except to say that we may have more in common than you might be thinking.

The words from the bible I rely on most often, when it comes to difficulties with people are:


"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"

I pray for help with it (these) and I try to live it (them), although sometimes, it's not so easy....

and


"Love thy enemy"

....which seems like the biggest challenge God gives us.

do excuse me if my tone comes across cyberspace as preachy when I speak of these things.. that is really not my intent.

I believe your explaination of your intent (intention) and it counts.


Please hear my tone as sincere because that's what I feel and am trying to communicate, although I am not the best with words sometimes.  Something I've been working on forever.....will I ever learn?   

Thankyou for the discussion too (on edit:  from me too, I mean).

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Thank you, Sela... all is well as far as I'm concerned   

I am not the best with words either, at times. It seems that the harder I try to be clear, the more fierce and "cold" my language can become. Because I've heard that very thing/intonation/whatever in my own voice when speaking with passion, I've become more aware of that tendancy and would really like to continue working at removing that stinging tone.

What you've said here about loving our enemies and forgiving those who trespass against us - well, I couldn't agree more.
Those two commands have driven me to my knees on many occasions and I don't expect to ever be able to manage them apart from Jesus. I don't know any better way of staying humble than to consider these things daily.

Sela, I really appreciate that you've tried so hard to communicate with me. I know it's not easy...  and I hope you know that I'm not trying to be difficult. Ex - N used to say, "Why must you be so contrary??"  heh. Once in awhile maybe he got it right... but hey, when dealin with people like ex-N, maybe bein contrary is what keeps a person from joining them in la-la land.

With love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

CH:

I am really impressed with the honesty and accountability of this insight

the harder I try to be clear, the more fierce and "cold" my language can become. Because I've heard that very thing/intonation/whatever in my own voice when speaking with passion, I've become more aware of that tendancy and would really like to continue working at removing that stinging tone.

Good for you. I admire it very much when people can go straight to one of their own "fault lines" and say, here this is. This belongs to me, I own it, and I work on it.

For me, that kind of revelation causes instant respect and forgiveness. It's real maturity, imo.

Thank you for sharing it.

Sela, honeybun...you are brave and beautiful and bodaciously honest yourself. Utterly loveable.

thanks bothay'all.
Hops

[Sela]

Hiya Hope,

I'm sorry, I should have said I had to go away there yesterday.   Sorry for keeping you waiting for a reply (which I would be hoping for one, had I written a post like your last one on this thread).

Ha!  Re: cold language?   I'm from the Great White North!!    I can take the cold!! 

(That was very brave of you to say, Hope.  No worries.  Just glad to get to know you a little and looking forward to/hoping we will be supporting eachother from now on.   I like it when things work out 'cause where I grew up......nothing ever got worked out and I just wanna do things differently!  More FOO stuff.  Gee, there's more than I ever imagined  ).   At least that seems like a positive effect from a negatvie experience eh?

On edit: (Why do I think of these things after I push "save"?).  Thankyou, Hope, for trusting me enough to communicate with.  That's not so easy either and I appreciate it very much.



Hops!  Are you trying to get my head to blow up?  Bodaciously honest?  Waaaaaaay too generous, Hops.  Waaaaaay.  But thankyou for being so kind, sincere and lovable yourself, and for bothering to comment and for saying such nice things.  You make the world a much softer and beautiful place.

  Sela

[Certain Hope]

Thank you, Hops!

Honesty and accountability are absolutely essential to growing up, I think.
As you said... it's about maturity.
I used to think that my own behaviour was quite mature... and I imagine that it appeared so, at least to casual observers.
I have quite an imagination, it seems 
What's become glaringly obvious to me now is that there was a definite dichotomy between my outward actions (which usually consisted of zipping my lips) and the turmoil within. I guess the word "repressed" pretty much sums it up. Then, once I started trying to communicate and not hold all that in, it was either all mind and no heart, or all heart with no mind... lol - oy vey.
With no sleight on the macho gender at all, I seem to have become quite "male" in my method of thinking/communicating
 
Since I've been able to take my tumbly emotions to God and say - Hey, I don't know what to do with all this mess - and then "see" Him smile at me with His gentle longsuffering - I've been able to make more deliberate efforts to unite the inner with the outer (if that makes sense).
 
Watched a television drama the other night where the main character, an addict, went through rehab. At least, he appeared to. But all the while, he'd paid someone to switch his meds from the one which was supposed to wean him off vicodin to the real deal, vicodin itself. That really struck me... because, in a way, I see that's what I've done through parts of this recovery process.
In trying to face my fears and force myself to deal with the sorts of conflicts which I'd spent a lifetime avoiding, I put myself into situations for which I wasn't equipped and had no tools to manage. As a result, I'd self-medicate with the old drugs of detachment, emotional iciness, and probably a few more of which I'm not even aware...  yet
 
That's a big part of the reason why I've decided to continue trying to share here at this forum...
not because I think that I've got it all sewn up, but in order to uncover the rest of the picture.
I just want to approach this with the attitude of King David, in his prayer so many years ago...
 "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

Thanks again for your encouragement!

Hi Sela,

This is interesting to me... I didn't feel at all that I was kept waiting for a reply, Sela.
And that's not a matter so much of emotional detachment as it is another conscious, deliberate effort of mine to avoid attaching expectations to others. Thanks for helping me to see that!
It's something I've had to deal with recently in 3-D life, when someone didn't respond to me in a manner that I considered timely.
There was a brief flash of anger - followed by an immediate realization that I was mad because my feelings were hurt. And why would my feelings be hurt? Because I expected the other person to read my mind? Because I didn't expect them to have any more important things to do than tend to me? Examining these questions helped me to lay that matter to rest without harboring resentment (or any further expectations - lol). Glad that got settled! I still haven't heard back from that person and that's okay.

Re: things working out... yes, it's good when they do. It's wonderful to try to promote that sort of conciliation... and I think it's very, very healthy to recognize that reconciliation will not always be possible.  Just speaking in general here...  because I don't feel or think (trying to look at those two separately these days) that you and I have anything to reconcile.
We are just two different individuals sharing views and opinions about some very difficult topics, which is naturally going to bring some disagreement, but hopefully not wounded hearts. I can accept that
Again, I think this leads back to the theme of expectations.
Personally, I don't expect to re-enact or resolve "family of origin" issues here.
I expect that the opportunity for re-enactment will present itself, but I hope not to pursue that course.
What I expect is to be able to learn to communicate on a variety of issues with kindness and gentleness, not assuming that I know what a person needs or even wants, but just available to share as the opportunity arises... to share - and to receive.

With regard to trusting... Sela, I don't think that I ever needed to trust you enough to communicate.
I just needed to trust myself enough... which, for me, translates to trusting "God in me".
I've always tended to give other people far too much power over my own thoughts and emotions. I believe that is what's changed in me now. So whether or not I "trust" the other is irrelevant now to a certain extent? Yes, I think it is. I mean, as far as admitting my faults and weaknesses. I still wouldn't loan my car to just anyone or give some stranger my life savings to invest... but talking about failings and struggles is easy, because they're always before my eyes (and those of everyone around me).
Talking about hopes and dreams... now that may be an area where I'd have to trust the person more... will have to think on that.

Thanks again for the opportunity to dig into these things and take a closer look!

Hope