Update regarding lastest attempts on setting boundaries

[Bella_French]

A little while ago (maybe 2 months now!) I posted about some problems I was having with setting boundaries with my N mother, as well with a dodgy ebay seller  who was harassing me for money because he got suspended and fined by ebay, for ripping too may people off.

The good news, is that the No contact rule worked very well with the ebay seller. His harassment and threats kind of esculated for 4 weeks, becoming more and more outrageous.  But we decided to not engage or respond in any way whatsoever, with the plan to document his harrassment and call the police if it didn't stop.

Anyway, Lighter proposed that within 6 weeks of no contact, the harrassment should stop, and it did! Its been about 8 weeks now, and we haven';t heard a peep out of him for over 2-3 weeks, and it is a huge relief.

Thankyou Lighter, and everyone who helped me come up wit this plan.

My boundaries with my N mother are not going so great at the moment. I have been trying to wean her down to contact once every 3- 6 months (from 1-2 times a week), and I've managed to get it down to once every 2-3 weeks. However because of my general resistance to enmeshment with her, she is becoming increasingly surly and sarcastic on the phone, and she keeps threatening to move to my town to `haunt me' (her words). She has made this threat every time I've spoken to her in the last 2 months, which would be around 4-5 times now. And each time she says it in a more angry and threatening manner, as though she intends to `make' me be part of the enmeshment I am clearly resisting.

Luckily, my sister made me see that this is probably just a bluff, as her primary forms of NS (her on -again off- again husband and my youngest sister) are located where she lives now, and she wouldn't dare loosen the strangle hold she has on those relationships. So I guess I shouldn't worry too much for now.

Nonetheless, so much about her is bugging me right now. For example, although I only talk her every 2-3 weeks, its only because I don't pick up the phone every time she calls. She calls every time I talk to my fathers (i have 2), and in the past I was expected to explain myself (as this is regarded as some kind of crime in her head).  Just to explain this, one of my mothers sick rules is that my Dad is `not allowed' to have close contact with anyone, especially his daughters. That goes for my brothers as well.   If any such `unauthorized contact' occurs, the men in question must report back to her immediately, and explain themselves. And the same goes for me. If I fail to `report in' , it is followed by an angry call from Mum, who demands to know what we talked about and why.

Well, i don't `report in' any more, and this is causing my mother a lot of anger.

The last time I did answer her call was  a few days ago, and 3 weeks had past between conversations. She immediately launched into a surly, angry attack about some contact I'd had with my biological father, and she said she was going  to call the police to check up on me if I didn't contact her mroe often. That just made me resent her even more, and not want to contact her at all.

Anyway, last night I called my `non-biological father' and he told me I should talk to her more often. So I launched into all the reasons why I don't want to , and told him how much  miss him and want to be closer to him. he said he wants the same thing too, but as soon as he got off the phone, he must have `reported in' to N mother, who tried to call me so I could explain why I had been talking to my Dad. So I ignored the call.

Does any of this sound like the normal reactions to avoiding enmeshment with an N, and do you think my `weaning down' contact idea is going to work? I'm a bit confused right now, I guess, and i could use some advice.

Thanks so much for listening.

X Bella

[changing]

Poor Bella-

Such a decent and thoughtful person, trying to negotiate kindly with a komodo dragon. I don't know how many deer sacrifices are enough, nor how well weaning down the komodos works. But it seems like you are being worn down in the process. Can you get another phone line that friends, etc can call, and leave the original line for the family, Mum, and telephone solicitors with an answering machine and the ringer turned off (erasing unwanted messages unheard)? Perhaps redesign your mode of contact into a more nuetral type (bland cards, etc).
You are a grown, self-suporting woman, and you deserve your autonomy. You are not obligated to be disturbed by cranks, criminal weirdos, or super Ns- when they call, don't answer!!

Love,

Changing

[Ami]

Dear Bella,
   What your mother did is to be expected. Boundaries are to N's what the cross is to Dracula. N's HATE boundaries. It is a huge ''Affront" to them. It is like waving a red flag in front of a bull.
   So ,as you try to enforce any sort of a boundary --be prepared for a fight. This is how it works in N land---BLEH.
   I am so,sorry that you are hurting ,dear friend.
    You did not deserve a M like this. She is a fool not to appreciate a D like you.
  It really,really hurts, though, doesn't it.? I am so sorry, Bella                          Love  Ami

[Bella_French]

Dear Changing,

Thankyou so much for your kind words..you are just like sunshine, Changing (you too Ami)! Lol, I like the Komodo Dragon analogy. If we can train an Animal, surely its possible to train an N? lol.

I think my main feelings are apprehension right now; that `backed into a corner' feeling. I'm afraid of being pushed into blurting out some truths that will only result in my mother harming me, like preventing contact with male members in the family, and tossing me out of the sizable will, which should not hurt, but somehow does.

Dear Ami,

I remember you warning me about all this, lol. For some reason I thought I could have the same type of conversations with my mother (which used to be annoying, but not angry and surly), but just less of them. I felt that I could handle that level of contact.  But it seems that even a little distance is causing her strike out at me.

Where I'm uncertain and bit confused, is that I'm not sure if all this is a  temporary reaction, or a permanent reaction? Perhaps I just need to give it time, and she'll give up on trying to get me to go back to my old ways.?

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Bella)))))))) 

What a revolting development! I'm so sorry your mother is putting all of this inappropriate pressure on you.
Does seem that her threats to relocate to your town are empty threats. Who would manage the lives of her current puppets?
Ack.. my mother will not leave dad alone for a day, lest he make an independent move.

I'm sorry to say that I think your mother will continue badgering you as long as she believes it's having some effect.
In fact, my guess is that her next outburst will include a very pointed mention (likely via a messenger) of the family fortune and the sad prospects of those who do not fall in line with her royal highness' expectations.
N's can be very persistent stalker/harassers, that's for sure. I really like the idea of a separate phone line in your home just for her... a phone in her favorite color (she'd like that!)...  with a special personalized message - "Dear Mum, if it has been less than 3 months since our last conversation, I will not be returning this call. Love to you. Toodeloo!"
*sigh*
I know, highly unlikely.
((((((Bella)))))) I can dream!

With love,
Carolyn

P.S. OH! Congratulations on that ebay sheister... and good riddance 

[Bella_French]

LOL,  I like that suggestion, Carolyn!. It makes me wonder what would happen if i just told her what my boundaries are? Most likely a beheading, who am I kidding. This is another thing I hate about dealing with N's; They require a level of dishonesty that really rubs me up the wrong way.

Yes, and I think you're right about the inheritance card being the next one she pulls. If she does that, I will leave our next contact for 6 weeks instead of 3.

This worse than toilet training a dog!

X Bella

[lighter]

   Wondering if the NO CONTACT FOR 6 WEEKS rule would help shake your Mum off.

Just kidding.... sorta'a... 

Now... I do thank you for that kind post.... so glad stalking internet boy went away... whew!

Ahhh ya... about your mother.....  I believe whoever told you she's bluffing about haunting you in your town... was right. 

And.... IF she does follow through with the threat....

there's always moving to a desserted island.....

and looking for pirates as a getaway

::whispering::

She's a control freak soul crusher.....

skip her calls when you feel like it... no excuses past the non sequeter(sp?) and keep calling your dad(s) when you feel like it, no guilt or dread, when possible.  Talk about the good stuff and tell them they don't have to concern themselves with your mother daughter issues.... talk about good stuff.  I cringe picturing you defending yourself when that one dad told you, you should contact your M more often.

NONE OF HIS BUSINESS and don't you guys have other cool stuff to discuss?

You're a big girls now.... you don't have to let her control any aspect of your social life. 

[Bella_French]

Dear Lighter,

Yes, my dad and I both love animals and nature; we have quite  a deep bond surrounding this mutual interest that N mother really hates. I love calling him because he's very active in conservation and spends a lot of his millions on wilderness  conservation, and as much of his time as he can going to remote places and documenting species populations as part of a conservation group. I totally respect him. He rubs shoulders with people like David Attenborough, and I'm impressed with how he spends his time and wealth. My mother, on the other hand, has no hobbies and uses her wealth for selfish reasons and elaborate power mongering. Her latest reason for divorcing him is that he won't give up reading about conservation or lose his interest in it. And she wonders why I do not call her.

Dad's something like 67 now, and I think he's conscious that his body is going to betray him eventually, as he has bad back problems and detoriation in his eyes. . I really want to travel a bit with him, and i'm always nagging him. But he's still learning to put up boundaries, and i fear that his lessons will extend to his second or third life, by buddist standards. Thats so hard, but I know he has to do things in his own(agonizingly slow)  time. 

Thanks for asking, lighter. you are so sweet and funny:)

X bella

[lighter]

Ahhh Bella... what a wonderful thought.... you traveling with your millionai... ahem... your father, counting birds in the tranquility of the wild.... together... sharing a lovely green interest you both enjoy....

that bugs the bat guanna out of your mum.... errr... that you share together.... and it really is time to get that in..... he's 67..... he won't be able to do this forever.

If not now..... when?

[JanetLG]

Bella,

I'm sorry you're having NMum problems. She really doesn't respect your boundaries, does she?

It sounds so much like what I had, before I started NC. My NMum used to hate it when I had a conversation with my Dad - she would be literally twitching around, trying to stand between us, rather than let us just have a chat! She'd make up some silly 'errand' for my dad to do, or say 'come and look at this, Janet' and drag me out of the room to go and look at some boring thing she'd just bought, to get me out of the living room where my dad was.

I understand completely the 'reporting back' idea - I've never heard of anyone else having to put up with that one before! My dad has now been divorced from her for twelve years, AND HE STILL REPORTS BACK BECAUSE SHE TELLS HIM TO. How's that for control?

As to what you can do about training your mother to allow you to have less contact...you can try what I did (limited success, but quite satisfying) - each time she manages to get through to you on the phone, and she's rude to you, critical or whatever, you say to her 'if you do blah again, I'm going to hang up, and I won't speak to you for twice as long as the last gap between calls - it's your choice'. Of course, she'll immediately do it again, because that's what N's do. Then you can say ' Your choice, then', and hang up. Just make sure you stick to the time limit you need to, or she'll know you don't follow through!

 When the fathers (or any relatives) get told to 'chase you up' by your mother, for NC, it's simpler, IMO, to just say,'Thanks for your concern, but I'll deal with her about that, I don't need to discuss it with you.' Just don't go there with them - whatever they feed back to your mother will be criticised, so it might be better (for you and them) not to tell them anything at all.

When I was having family therapy, just before I started NC, the therapist asked my NMum what she thought was a 'reasonable' time between visits of me to her (not the other way round - us kids were always expected to 'pay homage' at her house) ( bearing in mind I was married by then, and aged 31), and she said at least once a week, on a Sunday, for about 5 hours. I said, once every month or so, depending on when I had time to fit it in. She said that was 'wicked and sinful' 

If you can't sort it out to BOTH your satisfactions, I'd suggest total NC, actually.


Janet

[Bella_French]

Dear Janet,

N's are so disheartening aren't they? Your mother sounds so much like mine, down to all the strange `twitching' and `getting between us' behavior, whenever I speak to my Father in person when shes around.  Its maddening.

Janet have you ever had `survival' fears, and was NC hard on you, or did you feel ready for it when you did it?  Did you prepare for it mentally, or was your hand kind of forced?

X Bella

PS. I laughed at your mother's response in therapy, to what she wanted from you. My mother said recently that what she considers `reasonable contact' is my partner and I moving up to live with her, in her spare room, lol. As if we could fit our studio and workshop, and all our possessions into one little room!

[JanetLG]

Dear Bella,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'survival fears' - do you mean do I think that I wouldn't be able to survive without NMum's presence (before I started NC)? I think I DID feel that, just before things got so bad that I had to start NC. But because of my husband's support, and his being able to keep telling me that a healthy relationship is NOT so one-sided as my NMum was demanding from me all the time, I managed to see it clearly enough to break free from her. I wasn't exactly 'ready for it' (I don't think anyone ever really is, actually), but I know I'd really had enough. I'd been married just over a year, and she was taking up all of mine and my husband's time and emotional energy ...and I think she planned it to be like that. She wanted to ruin my relationship with him, because she wanted me all to herself, and he 'rescued me', in away, back to normality. The only way I 'prepared' for it was by reading the brilliant book 'Toxic Parents', and the Harriet Lerner (?)  books - one was Dance of Anger, I think. Also, 'When you and your mother can't be friends' by Victoria Secunda, I think. They were all saying it's a hopeless case, you HAVE to get out COMPLETELY. It took me about two years to realise that that meant PERMANENTLY.

I had hoped for ages that if I explained how much her behaviour was hurting me, that she'd stop, and just be pleasant. But no. Pleasant wasn't in her repertoire. She just got worse. My hand was forced a bit, in the end, by having family therapy sessions (which she told me to get, but I paid for). That made it so plain that I was wasting my time, that it did in a way make me have a public type of declaration that I'd finished with her.

I was in tears for weeks after that, but I gradually felt stronger. Now, I can see that it was absolutely necessary, that I am much healthier because of going NC. IMO, 'little contact' is as unhealthy as 'all day long everyday contact'...it's the drip, drip, drip effect on you of all that negativity that does the damage.

I felt so much lighter after ending the relationship. If it wasn't for society's insistence that daughters (much more than sons) HAVE TO keep in contact with their mothers, even when adult, many more of us would have happier lives, IMO. I tried for years, but it simply wasn't possible with mine.


Janet

[Ami]

Dear Bella,
 When you say that the N mother is just like training a dog, you are exactly right(IME).
 However,it is WORSE with an N mother, Usually dogs will learn. One thing that is very strange with an N( among many other strange things) is that they do not have a 'learning curve"
  It is a weird  when you are dealing with someone who will make the same"mistake"
over and over and over and still have the same dumb look on her face as the last time you told her---BLEH. Sorry Bella, I think that you are learning and facing more  of the truth about N's. It is really hard. ((((((((((((((((((((((((Bella)))))))))))))))))))))))                              Love   Ami

PS---It reminds me of Bone's friend who I ,affectionately ,call "my mother"

[Hopalong]

Oh, Bella.
She didn't have millions, but a house in a home city I yearned for, and an invitation to come home to my old room "just to see how it works" and 8 years later, here I am. I have paid a price for this sanctuary. (Oddly enough, I do love the room.)

In the long run, I think I will be okay with it. I sure have learned more from this titanic struggle than I knew I would. And probably, more of the lessons are good than bad. And eventually, I will be left with a roof over my head that I could not afford on my own. But if I had had other resources, and hadn't supported two husbands and then raised my D afterward on my own, with tiny child support...IF I'd been in the financial (or emotional) shape to strike out again and start again with no help...I just don't know.

It was the road not taken. But I can relate so much to your dilemma.

love (and sorry I'm no help),
Hops

[Bella_French]

Dear Janet,

You are so brave, but I'm glad to hear that you had some solid support from your partner and some insghtful authors to help with your decision. I can totally respect what you did there, and the fact that you chose to give yourself self-care in this way.

The way things stand in my family right now, one my sisters is ready to disown my mother, and her husband sounds kind of like yours: insightful, protective, and psycholically astute enough to know that my mother is abusing his wife. He doesn't want our mother in his life, and especially not in his children's life, and I really appreciate him for that.  I envy my sister and you a little; my partner is wonderful but hes young and still can't pick abuse, let alone stand up to it. I feel a bit alone with this, although I know he cares. I wish i could hide under someone's skirts sometimes. I often feel like my only protection is me, and I'm very fragile beneath some flimsy external defenses that only partially work. Maybe i'll get better with age, I hope so. I can't wait till I'm 40 (not long to go now)

Dear Ami,

Your post made me laugh, and I really enjoy your humour:) Maybe if i can't train my mother, I can least ignore her, lol.

And Hops,

I appreciate hearing your experience, and it does help hearing how you dealt with things. I know; a roof over your head is nothing to disregard. Maybe thats why I am afraid of burning  my bridges here; I just can't forsee my future needs.

Thankyou to all of you for listening, and for giving me some things to think about. I love you guys SO much.

X Bella