Author Topic: Anger Vs. Depression  (Read 4775 times)

sunblue

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2007, 03:55:23 PM »
Having suffered from clinical depression all my life, you'd think I'd have more answers by now.  I am currently on meds and have tried nearly two dozen different meds and therapies.  I've been in therapy and hospitalized for major depression.  And still, the question I ask various doctors repeatedly is "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"  Is the depression the result of environmental issues (raised in an N family) followed by a number of negative life experiences?  Or, did the negative life experiences come first followed by a major depression?  The answer is invariably is "We don't know.  It's likely a combination of both biological and situational factors."

After having studied depression and NPD extensively now, I do believe that the N situation either caused or greatly contributed to my lifelong depression.  Some have told me my depression can be directly tied to my family situation.  My recent doctor has suggested a I consider a surgical procedure in which a device would be implanted in my body to help regulate my depression and emotions.

And yes, I have also read often how some believe that depression is simply anger turned inward.  Personally, I think that is too simplistic an explanation.  It would follow then if you came to terms with that anger, identified it and expressed it, then the anger, and thus the depression, would disappear.  But that is not the case.  At least not with me.

The really terrible thing is while depression (in my case) may be a direct result of being raised in an N household and having an N family, it affects every aspect of my life.  And of course, Ns have absolutely, positively no patience or empathy for those who suffer, particularly from an emotional disorder like depression.  They view it as a sign of weakness.  Ns want nothing to do with weakness.  How ironic that the very symptoms of major depression (debilitating fatigue, sadness, lack of interest, lack of motivation) are those that the Ns just can't tolerate.  It is one more thing that convinces the N you are a failure, unworthy and unvaluable.  Nearly every doctor I have ever been so has says the opposite...i.e., that you have to be a very strong person to struggle through depression.

It has been my experience that no one tolerates very well someone with depression.  They don't understand it and certainly don't want to be around it.  They have absolutely no empathy for those suffering from it.  The result is that the very thing you need as a depressive (support, encouragement, attention, empathy, compassion) are nowhere to be found.

I just can't help thinking how can you not be depressed after living a lifetime with serious Ns?  You'd have to be superhuman not to have it affect you.

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2007, 04:30:36 PM »
Dear Sun,
  I think that every child of an N would have depression(IMO)
  So sorry that they did not appreciate your inherent value and special qualities.
  Anyone would be suffering if they had your situation, Sun.           Love   Ami


((((((((((((((((((((Sun))))))))))))))))))))))))))0
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2007, 08:26:47 PM »
I have to say that of all the pain that I have ever gone through with my M, this seems like the worst.I tried so hard to twist and become a "mental case" so she would love me. Now, I want to live with truth and she  completely rejects me. It is so painful that I am just asking God to hold me so I can deal with this pain.
  No one should have to make the choice between their mental health and a M's love. It hurts so badly. I guess these feelings are what put me in to denial. I just decided to become "crazy" so I could have a M.
 My stomach hurts so badly b/c I am facing the truth. She was even crazier that I thought.She completely rejected me when I would not distort the truth, anymore. I can only face it b/c I know that God loves me and this pain will pass.
  Also, being in denial eats your whole life up. You  sacrifice reality  so you won't have to "see" what you are pushing aside.Down deep, you "know" it anyway. That is why you have dreams that tell you the truth.
   I know that people  ,here, understand. I know that I am not alone. All my dear friends here have suffered  this type of abuse and you are thriving.
   It is so nice not to be alone                                              Love   Ami
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No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2007, 08:31:00 AM »
 Today, I have less of a  depression  I see that I was faced with a choice. Either be  'crazy" and have a type of M or be well( good confidence and my own power) and be TOTALLY rejected. That was my choice. It reminds me of "Sophies Choice" in the sense that I had a monumental choice to make.
   I could have my own M ,who I needed and wanted ,as a child( and an adult) or I could have my own 'mind"
  She is like a Steven King character . In one book, the zombies "suck" out the minds of the towns people.The towns people look "normal" but they are clones for the monster.
 Vaknin talks about this. The N's have no regard for how you feel ,in life, they have no regard for the pain that it takes to "throw yourself away". They have no regard that you are like a broken toy trying to function with no abilities b/c your essential core was stripped.
 I look at my kids and I WANT then to love themselves.It hurts me when they are insecure.It hurts me when they doubt their worth. My M WANTS me to be a mass of jelly. She wants me to be a "stripped' person.
  My mind and core are my most valuable "assets". She wants to strip them to nothing. That is the only WAY that she will have anything to do with me.
 WOW--- How much can a body take and still go on? This is freakin" TRUTH ---is it not?         Ami


You shall KNOW the truth and the truth will MAKE you free.I am getting there
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2007, 08:44:56 AM »
 I see that I have to face how the world really is,now. I have faced that my N Mother wants me to be crazy--just like the zombies in the Steven King book made the other people in to zombies ,too
  The zombies would not stop until they 'infected" other people and made them zombies. How many Blehs ?  This must be the core of my denial.How much worse could it get than your own M wants you to be 'mentally ill" . Your own mother wants to pull your mind "off" and leave you denuded so that she can be "bigger " . She wants to make you so insecure and self doubting so she can appear "big". If that is not "truth" what is?
  It is a "rape" of your essential core that God gave you.
  If there is more denial to face,I don't know what it is?  I think that my feelings have not caught t up with my mind in this one, though.I still have to grieve that I was "molested" emotionally and  psychologically and when I would not take it any more,I was cast aside.                            Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Hopalong

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2007, 10:55:25 AM »
Hi Sun,
Are you "divorced" from your N family or still in contact?

Hops
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alone48

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2007, 01:37:19 PM »
Ami,

You have been so supportive and educational to me throughout this journey. Your questions have made me look at things that I thought only I had wondered. The one thing I have learned that relationships with N's (no matter what type) is draining, destructive, makes you crazy, and zaps all that you have.

When you start with it so young in your life, how do you ever learn to overcome? It is now so much a part of who you are. I too have tried all my life to be what everyone else wanted or needed, but there never was anyone when I needed it. My T once asked me to describe my personality and I told her I didn't have one. She said "everyone does" and my reply was, "I'm whatever anyone needs or wants me to be". So sad, but true.

Is the depression, anger turned inward due to the fact we don't think we are entitled to be angry at others? I take all the guilt and problems of the world and believe that it's my fault. My T wanted to know why I thought I was that important. Never, ever did I think I was that important, but certainly an interesting way to look at it. Sorry for babbling, just trying to make sense for myself.

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2007, 01:45:56 PM »
My F gave me the biggest gift this morning. I told him all about what I wrote here.I realized that my M totally rejected me b/c I wanted to be emotionally well .
  I really thought that he would  try to take away  my reality .However, he really is rooting for me to be well. He really came through for me. He said that I had a lot of courage to face the truth like I am doing.I really don't like when he says "courage" but he was trying to give me support and I took it as support.
  I was surprised.
  I think that the "spell" was broken with my M. I broke the spell that the" evil witch 'cast on me. The spell paralyzed me from feeling, seeing or doing.(like in my dream) Certain things she really 'broke" in me. She used to laugh when i said that I wanted to live with respect and integrity. She would mock and ridicule me.
 Now,I feel free to define my own parameters.
  I still feel a deep depression,but I will do the inner child exercises and just root out the causes. I think that the  causes are some form of lies that she told me about my value.
   I feel the depression,but I don't feel so afraid of it or even that I have to run from it.I can go within and see what it is trying to tell me. My feelings have been pushed down for so long.I can't expect to be all "new' right away.
  I have to have a new set of rules about myself .               Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 02:06:56 PM »
Dear Alone,
  Thanks for writing. . I am so glad that you wrote your post.Thank you so much, Alone.
   I think that there is only so much a person can take (pain) before they push away their 'real" self and construct a false self . The false self is constructed b/c we think that the 'real" self was the 'bad' one who got us in to all this "trouble( parent's abuse).
   The false self tries and tries to be "good" and make other 's happy. The false self learns to please to get love and avoid hurt.
  Then,it is like the Twilight Zone episode where they have kept the 'masks" on for so long that they can't pull them off.
   Even  when we are out of the home, we still wear the mask.I am finding that as I pull off the mask  the pain is bad . However, as I write in my journal,I see that I 'hated 'myself for such stupid things like I couldn't make a raging N happy or I was "too much trouble' , too demanding or needed too much love.
  At the core of our self loathing are DUMB ideas that kids figure out. My S(younger) has been feeling a depression.I got him to see the "root" of it which was that my S was a wimp b/c he couldn't stop his F from raging and b/c he did not stand up and help (he was age 7).
  These are the 'type" of reasons we have for hating ourselves. The reasons are so 'small" and silly once we look at them. However,if we simply believe them, they ruin our lives with depression , addictions, etc
  The unexamined life RUINS  us-- big, big time.
  I am forcing myself to face all  aspects of my life. I am feeling more alive .
  It is a journey that we HAVE to take. There is a beautiful painting inside everyone of us. We were forced to "throw it away". Maybe we would have gotten really bad abuse if we did not.
It was too dangerous to be a bubbly,happy ,self centered little kid.
It was NOT our fault that we got depressed and codependent.
 At least we know that we have others here who truly,truly understand as we  hurt while we are trying to heal.
  Thanks so much for being there, Alone.                           Love   Ami


 
 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 04:17:12 PM »
I really have some hope that I can be well--even 'normal". I see that I just 'took in" GARBAGE--lots and lots of it.
  I see now that I made the decision to cast off my perception about everything.If I can get it back and start learning lessons about myself and life as it is,I should be able to be "normal"
  Normal to me is to face how I am inside. It is to face myself with all the good and bad ..
   It would be to have cleaned up the shame core so I can just relax .
  It would be being centered in myself--not the outside.  Just some thoughts.I see this as a possibility,now. I never did  until I faced that my M was the crazy one-.I took it all on ( the craziness) to try to protect her. When she rejected me for getting better,I could see how it has to be over.. She would really throw me overboard in a second ----in order to protect herself. Only ONE person can "win " ,in her mind. She will destroy me so it can be her..BLEH(what else can you say?)               Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

wiltay

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2007, 05:10:04 PM »
Quote
Part of what gets me angry was how "easy" it was to back her down and turn the tables and have HER be the coward.
  It was so easy and ALL this time I was the abused one when I could have just turned it around and been the strong dog.

Ami, I don't know if this will help or not, but remember that the entire belief system of an N relies upon convincing YOU that their beliefs are true.  When they lose their ability to control what you believe they are lost because they have no anchor of their own. YOUR beliefs are their only reality and they can only see themselves in the mirror you provide, so you must reflect their lies.  If your mirror is an honest one however, it is totally intolerable and they will reject you completely.  So as an adult you've always had far more power than you thought, but having a soul and a conscience has kept you from even acknowledging it, let alone using it (IMO).  N's are nothing but smoke and mirrors.  Knowing this doesn't  help with the rage though, I have to admit.  They've used your very love for them against you to manipulate you for their own purposes and that is nearly impossible to forgive.  Shame is the most powerful 'weapon' they have I think.  Nothing makes you more impotent than shame.  Grrrrrrrrrrrr.  Anger (and depression) are big issues for me too!
Bill

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2007, 06:36:01 PM »
Dear Bill,
  I think that you saw the "forest" when I was lost in the trees.
  Thank you,Bill. Your post was a  big  piece in the puzzle ,which is just beginning to make sense.In that "sense "is my freedom. Thank you ,friend                                 Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2007, 07:35:53 PM »
This is the first time since I was 14,that I have a little hope that I can really get 'myself' back.I 'flashback" to times when I felt whole and strong. I am still that same person., underneath.
  I have certain memories  that have emotions with them of feeling that I had value. I see myself walking downstairs to a party.I can see what I am wearing.Most importantly, I felt like there was s/one inside  me that I would not sell out-- that I would honor and respect.
  I had so much fun there b/c I had myself with me. This was one of the last times that I felt whole. I lost all my friends to friends to drugs shortly after that.I tried to connect with my M. Previously,I was connected to a group of friends.
  Once I tried to connect with her,it was a fast track to Hell.Now,I can see hope of finding that person who I had to throw away that long time ago.                                    Ami
   
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 09:20:48 PM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

wiltay

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2007, 09:34:53 PM »
Ami, you so often hit the core emotional buttons that are so relevant to my experience.  You are far from being 'lost in the trees," but I know what you're saying.  For myself, I can be TOO 'big picture' so that I don't have to get too close to emotional "cores.  Maybe that's an honest difference between men and women, I don't know.  Right now I'm reading "Trapped in the Mirror" by Elan Golomb, a book someone on this board recommended and it's very good and very relevant to me.  From this book, I know now that my father was an N, without a doubt, and that's why I've had such an N target on my back my whole life.  It seems pretty obvious now. 

    But what I was going to say (from reading the book) is that the (self) you 'threw away" so long ago was the one that threatened your mother so badly that she had to try to squash it.  And from your threads about 'aloneness" I think her weapon was the threat of abandonment.  Shame is a very powerful weapon, but I think the threat of being abandoned must be twice as powerful.  So you abandoned the self that threatened your mother, in the same way that I abandoned the self that threatened my father.  We did it to ourselves, in the name of love and to be loved. And to this day, every time that real self pokes it's head out, so does that horrible threat of total aloneness (being unlovable) come into being, and you squash that self, just like you always did as a child.  In my mind, this is what your 'aloneness' thread(s) were talking about.

Bill

Ami

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Re: Anger Vs. Depression
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2007, 10:07:05 PM »
Dear Bill,
  Your posts have really helped me get over two big "bumps". Your first post(above) showed me that my M was a "canned laughter"type of person. She could not "make(originate) a joke,but she could laugh back at it.
  I "saw" with my heart that she could only be the mirror(as you said),not the  original "core" with her own "real" ideas. This is so sad that there are no words to express it. When you see it,it is like the same shock you feel when you hear that s/one is in an accident or dies. A sick ,thud type of feeling hits your stomach and head.
  As long as I was having "enmeshment" types of "fights' with her, she could do her 'trained monkey" part. However, when I got better. she became like jelly b/c she had no "script" to bounce off from.  She is really the "zombie" that Vaknin talks about--- the living dead..
  The second point that you made about aloneness is very,insightful.I never would have looked at it like that. I can see from my Yorkie puppy that this breed just "craves" a lap to sit on. She craves  being  close to me. It shows me that I was not "abnormal" to want love and connection.It is built in to us.
Lately,I am making peace with "aloneness".I will walk and say,"I am alone.".It will feel more peaceful than it used to.Even if you have good parents and a spouse,you still have to make your peace with aloneness b/c it is part of the human condition---right?
  i don't remember her threatening me with "aloneness' but it probably was subtle. I think that I could not "think" or say anything that differed with her reality or "severe consequences" would follow..I was not hit ,but she would "become" a monster right before my eyes like the Incredible Hulk-bleh.
 I felt like I would be disowned if I ever "told the truth" about "reality. After a while,I had lied so much that i was very,very lost.I only found my way back from the board.
  Bill,it must be a "shock" to realize that your F is an N. You did not realize  this before. I remember you saying that you thought that HIS father was an N.
   Has it been a shock for you? It was very much so for me. Coming out of denial is  very painful. We went in to denial b/c it was too painful to see what was happening. We have to face the same painful feelings  as we come out of denial(IME)
  It seems like you are starting on a whole "new" journey ,on the board, now that you realize that you are a child of an N.
  Thank God  that we all have each other. We know that when we come here ,we don't have to "sugar coat" the truth. It is a horrible truth,but facing it is the best way to dispel it.  Thank you so much for your tremendous insights. They helped me get to the next level.                                      Love to You    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung