I "Forgive" Too Easily

[changing]

Hi Ami-

The title/feeling of the post reminds me of the standard song "I Fall In Love Too Easily"

I fall in love too easily
I fall in love too fast
I fall in love too very very hard
For it to ever last.

Love,

Changing

[Ami]

WOW, Changing. Are you brilliant or WHAT?                                      Ami

[wiltay]

Lise, you covered a lot of ground in your post to me!    ..the actual pastor of my parrish would not even look at her 'he won't have anything to do with me" She could not figure that out either... She has no real insight into herself at all. Her only reality is what she can fool other people into believing and she is perplexed by people she can't manipulate. 
...she showed up late and left early all the while she had her head down and was seeming to be stressed about something.  She loathed not being at the center of the spotlight (and hated YOU for having it) and deeply resented the fact that she couldn't find a good enough excuse not to be there. This is so Randy.

There is a saying that I read somewhere that says never love anything that can't love you back.  I think that is a great saying, but the problem with Ns is that they fool you into thinking they DO love you. I think that is the worst lie it is possible to tell and Ns don't hesitate for a minute to use it if it gets them what they want.

The N that you play volleyball with, he does not know that he is an N, correct? Lise, My volleyball 'friend' of many years (about 25) doesn't have even a small clue about himself. He has no ability to be critical of his behavior towards other people. 
   From my reading and my own thinking, I think the easiest way to view an N is as a child emotionally stuck at the age of 3(?)who at the same time possesses an adult's considerable intellectual capacity to understand how the world works.  All very young children are completely narcissistic because they can't separate the world or anything in it from themselves, because there is no ME yet, (With no me,it is also not possible to feel shame). Everything in their universe is simply an extension of their own wants and needs. They reach for anything they want with a complete sense of entitlement to it. If they are blocked from getting if for some reason, they immediately try another another way. If they are frustrated too much they fly into a rage. Right is what works, Wrong is what doesnt work. Every single thing in their world is an object, including their mother, something to be manipulated until it gives you want you want. Or if it won't give you want you try to teach it a lesson!
    This is where I think that NPDs are stuck. I have no idea why this happens. Genes and parenting, serendipity. Because they usually get away with it!? But nothing is for free. They still have no real sense of ME so they have to try to control everything in their world to feel any anchor to reality.  They are extremely anxious unless they feel powerful. 
      And yet because of their intelligence and adult knowledge of the world they can and should be held accountable and they rarely are IME. They persist in their self-centered, destructive behavior because it usually works. They feel no sense of right or wrong--if it stops working they change out of pure expediency, nothing else.  E, the N Volleyball player has been a new person lately.  People have stopped showing up because they are just burned out by him. He cannot deny the fact they aren't coming anymore. So I told him why and I repeated their statements to me.  I did this several times over the course of about a month.  Well, he's a changed person now (but it won't last). He's 'happy' and doesn't get angry anymore. He saw the undeniable facts so he changed his behavior to effect a different outcome. Terrific!  Fine and dandy, right? But it's pure manipulation.  He did not change because it was the right thing to do or because he felt badly that his behavior was upsetting people and driving them away.  He had none of those feelings. He changed because he wasn't getting away with it anymore! This won't last. People will start coming back and in no time he will be doing the same old things again, for just as long as he can get away with it.  E is what I would calling  a 'raging' N as opposed to a saintly N.  He has almost no guile and is therefore quite 'obvious.'

Bill

[Ami]

Dear Bill,
 When I read your post,I STILL realize that I am in denial about my M(How long is denial until you get to the bottom? )
 I see that you get the concept of N's , in the heart. How did you do it? I still have a fog over my eyes. I still say,"Is it that bad?". Then,I read your post and I KNOW that it IS that bad. It simply is .
 .I noticed that when my son's were in  first grade that they had more empathy and consideration THAN  my M. I remember the moment that that thought "hit' me. I didn't know what to do with it.. .It is so sad.
  Thanks for expressing it so clearly that it forces me out of more  denial--bleh.                      Love  Ami

[Gabben]

He's 'happy' and doesn't get angry anymore. He saw the undeniable facts so he changed his behavior to effect a different outcome. Terrific!  Fine and dandy, right? But it's pure manipulation.

What amazes me is how in denial we are about these N's...I'm struggling with something, (I think) Ami is going through too; peeling another layer of denial off of the reality that our mom or saint N's are really this void of feeling bad about things or in other words actually have a conscious? It just blows me away...I've been trying to come up with a good analogy the best I can do it is like when suddenly the curtain is pulled back on a magic show and you just can't believe your eyes that the show was just an act.

My mom emailed me today saying that she is sorry for all that she ever put me through and how much she hurts just thinking about my pain and sadness, she is still trying to manipulate me into coming down to her house for TG. Now she is playing the I care about you card - as if!

I want so much to believe her and to think that perhaps this is her really changing now. My sister has been able to see through her ever since she was a little girl or at least she figured out that something was not right with her long before I did. I am still just barely coming to terms that in all of my life I have never been able to turn to my mom and pour even the slightest piece of my heart out to her, it is just hitting me, that is not right. I gave up trying a long a time ago because I knew that if I was to ever call my mom for support when I was going through hard times, she would go into a rage and have be reduced to tears.

Was either one of your parents an N? For some reason I thought that I read something about you saying your Father was an N but I guess in your last few posts you have made it clear that he was not?

Lise

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
  My M would play the 'caring card" ALL the time. It is so pitiful that I was so hungry that I always (with the exception of the last month) would come running back.
  I was so hungry for love.
       Ami


(((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))))))

[Gabben]

Dear Bill,

I wanted to thank you for the few things that you pointed out about my N therapist saint. I read your post but it took awhile for it to sink in. You highlighted three things and pointed out the truth of the situations, it was as if I suddenly had snapshots of reality  into her selfless image driven world. I was able to see her, or the lack thereof, your post helped to evaporate the last remaining traces of disalusionment in my mind, I hope.

It is freeing to see the truth about her so clearly now. I realized that I did not even know who she really is...it was like a mirage.

I feel much better now.

Thanks Bill - Hope that you are having a good weekend?

Have you read Judith V's Nessecasry Losses?

Lise

[Gabben]

  I was so hungry for love.
 

Hi Ami,

This afternoon I took a nap, I had a dream that I can't recall with the exception of the ending which was a Bold neon sign that said "FOOD."  I awoke but I was not hungry. I realized then that what I was hungry for was praise.

I see my self doing a little recovery dance for therapists, as if I am a 2, 3 and 4 year-old twirling around saying look at me..."I'm healing", "I'm doing the work."  "praise me!"   My little girl never got that praise. I don't know if I am crying about that yet. I know that I am willing to give up the need to seek out praise, it would be freeing. However, those painful mourning feelings have not shown up yet.

I'm hungry.

Lise  ((((((((((((AMI))))))))))))

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
  It is SO weird ,but I am really "feeling" those deep yearnings for love and they feel like a desperate hunger-----bleh. 
         Ami
  \

[Hopalong]

never love anything that can't love you back

Hi Bill,

I think the problem with the saying is the implied definition of loving.
As in, love = having no boundaries and leaving yourself open to exploitation and ruin.

You can love anybody.
That doesn't equate with letting yourself abandon yourself, so their dark side will hurt you.

That was a big lightbulb for me.

You can love them as a spiritual choice...but without the suicidal vulnerability our culture trains us in.

Hops

[wiltay]

Hops, I see what you mean.  You don't have to let your love for someone allow them to abuse you.   I have 'loved' all of the Ns I've known for their good qualities and everyone of them has had them, otherwise there would never have been any kind of relationship in the first place.  I can STILL love their good qualities to this day, but it will be from arm's length or farther away.  I think the saying has a lot of validity as a 'test' though.  If all you get from someone is hurt they clearly don't love you and you shouldn't waste much love, if any, on them.  I think it's a good test to do every once in awhile, esp if you have a 'history.'

   One of the hardest issues for me is that I continue to like someone for their good qualities, despite all the jerky things they have done.  I have an ex house mate who is very N and has wanted to stay in touch for the last 20+ years.  I never initiate anything and I cringe every time he calls because I'm very conflicted, but he truly has some likable qualities and I'm not good at rejection.  He doesn't have a small clue about what a jerk he is to people close to him though.   He just got divorced (second marriage) from a very sweet person.  He can list a dozen reasons why the marriage didn't work and everyone last of them was her fault.  The truth was almost the exact reverse. His fragile sense of self can't handle the slightest defect on his part.  I figure I can handle seeing him briefly about once a year and that's what I do.

Bill

[wiltay]

I just want to make it clear that I am not nearly so forgiving of Randy.  The other Ns I've known didn't slip so completely under my radar screen the way he did.  He has caused me so much deliberate damage it's just mind-boggling to me.  He of course believes that all the difficulties were completely my fault and I deserve everything I got.  I can thank my lucky stars that he still feels 'compassion' for me though!

Bill

[wiltay]

Lise, my father was definitely an N.  I was in semi-denial of it I guess you could say.  I made peace with him years before he died. That was possible because he changed considerably and could be generous and loving without being manipulative.  I don't/didn't  feel any big issues with him for a long time.  Hiis N parenting caused me a lot of damage, but I think his own father caused HIM even more and he really had some awareness of both of these things (very unusual for an N!) I think he changed for number of reasons, mostly I think because my mother was going to leave him for good (55 years of marriage altogether) and that just terrified him so much she was able to drag him to marriage counciling. 
' Trapped in the Mirror' is one book I've read, only half way so far.  Elan Goulomb I think is the author. I've learned quite a bit from it but I thought it was a little weak in the middle.  I've read all of Vaknins and Grossmans stuff that I could find, plus a whole lot of other stuff on the net, which I see you are familiar with.  The net was my first and most important introduction to Narcissism and it is just the greatest resource,  esp including this board.   What is Necessary Losses about?

Bill

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
  Could you please explain(in as much detail as you can) the process you went through from abandoning yourself(which I assume you did with an N(ish) M)to getting to the "other side of the road" where you did NOT abandon yourself?
                      Thank you so very much       Ami

[Hopalong]

It wasn't all very conscious, Ami.
But a pivotal moment, even though I struggled with a lot of guilt about it, was when my mother was manipulating me by "calling in my brother" and had him tearing down the interstate from hundreds of miles away...and I realized it was all because I had said NO to her. NO I will not stay home and become Cinderella. I will give you a tray and comforts and be sure you are safe and well tended, and then I am going to see a friend. She woke up from a nap that day and I had covered ALL the bases, and left a note and everything she needed. But she had not wanted me to go out and she was PISSED (because she was no longer in control).

When I got home 2 hours later and realized what sort of drama she'd engineered (she knew how vulnerable I have felt about my bully N brother) -- I blew my stack. I said if you don't call him and make him turn around and go home right now, I am moving OUT. And I meant it.

Thou Shalt Not Blow Thy Stack was the 11th commandment. But in the last 9 years I've gotten angry at her twice, and it cleared out a lot of sludge. After the explosion (and I WAS sorry for the explosion, because I was so angry one time I had her literally shaking) -- I realized how seriously toxic the situation was and I think she did too.

I got back into my own shoes.

The way I relate to her now is always courteous and friendly, sometimes with some humor. But most of the time, there's no intimacy. She's comfortable (that's her norm) and I am no longer missing or yearning for intimacy with her. So a polite I'm-in-charge-of-arranging-your-wellbeing kind of relationship is what we have now, and it's peaceful. She no longer tries to get further obedience (doesn't boss me around much, and when she tries, i just say yes. No. I'll do it later. I'm not going to do that. Sure, I can do this. You're welcome. I'm glad. Sleep well, g'night. -- that's about our daily dialogue. I forgot: Here are your pills.) I'm not hostile at all, smile at her often, we share little jokes. I feel compassionate, just not close or especially interested -- old self-absorption by an N-ish person is DULL. I love her, but it's a detached and comfortable love, and has no drama in it.

Hope that helps, Ami. Best I can do. (I have noticed how much more peaceful and appreciative she seems to have become, so perhaps some of the grasping agony of being a histrionic-Nish person has faded for her. I'm glad.)

Hops