what to do about custody/visitation with an N dad?

[fifi]

Hi all,

Going through a divorce with an N.  Have kids.  N was abusive to me - as Ns are, mostly emotionally (humiliation, controlling, demeaning, physically and otherwise mentally absent), and then also physically - throwing things at me, hands around the throat, punch in the arm, etc.)  Would not control temper in front of the kids - no empathy - kids would cry when he got violent towards things and when he yelled loudly at me in front of them.  N husband would not stop even then.  Never around for kids.  Neglectful and dangerous for them - would leave dangerous things out, etc.  Would chastise me when I tried to be safe.  Not too safe in general.  i.e. drinking and driving in the past - got arrested for this.  Encouraging kids to run around pools, play dangerously while on bikes and playgrounds, etc.  T.V. always on when with them, would not feed them until cleaned house, etc.  Would not let me feed them when they were babies if he wanted me to help him with something - until we were done, etc.      

We will be negotiating custody and i"m scared at his influence on them.  The humiliation of them, the controlling, the lack of real empathy or even true interest beyond them being extensions of him, and their safety.  But, I don't want to leave them without a dad.   I think, "Who am I to decide they can't see their dad?"  and, "How can I take away their dad?"  And, "Maybe their dad won't treat them the way he treated me."  And, "Maybe he's learned and now that we're getting divorced, and he can't see them that much, he truly appreciates them now."  And, "Maybe he won't influcence them too much and maybe he can provide some good qualities for them."  And then i think, "Who am I to do this?  I'm their only source of protection.  It's my job to protect them, and this means also from their dad, bc I know what he can do to people - I was able to get out, to survive, to defend myself, but children are not."  And, "He's this way in part bc of his N mom, and my kids run the risk of becoming just like him bc of their N parent (dad)."  It's so hard struggling btwn protecting the kids and not taking away their dad.  I'm free now, but I'm facing this decision - maybe even harder than the decision to leave, bc cutting their dad out or significantly limiting his visitation could be taking their dad away.  Any advice would be so helpful!  Thank you.

[Anonymous]

First of all, Congratulations on your freedom of choice and on getting away from such an awful person! Now you must think of the children and if I knew how old they were that would help but they are not old enough to make decisions like you are and you have to think of their saftey , physical and mental. Bruises and scrapes go away but mental abuse is harder to detect and heal. I come from a family of both parents being not there emotionally and father absent due to not being able to handle very mentally ill mother and very mentally ill mother just not being there at all. Guess what I got left with picking up the pieces of a horriably disfunctional family. I was the oldest and I had to make the decisions and make sense out of what was happening to us because there was no one else. Now that you are a parent your first and foremost job is keeping those children safe at all costs. I would have rather had no parent then  parents who doesn't know I am there and doesn't care. N people DO NOT care about anybody but themselves at any stage in their life. If you read any of the books on narcissim and cures they all give no hope or very little hope for a cure. These people are walking monsters ready to pounce at any given opportunity. Children are captive audiences and are time and again suffering because of some supply that a sick parent had to have. N people do not think like normal people do, they never will. I wish I had better hope and all the answers but I am a mother of 2 and I left a 17 year marriage to an alcoholic and then a 6 years relationship with a N-boyfriend and the one thing my kids tell me all the time is we are glad we have a mother who would go so far for us. I love them and I knew I didn't want them to go through what I went through. 6 years of therapy and still healing after 41 years of trying to heal from mental wounds and silent bruises. Take care of your family and limit time with horrible people to any cost. If he has gone to jail for any reason he has not much chance of getting equal parenting time. Use this as a tool and only use it in exterme cases. Like when he makes threats or if he tries to get sole custody. I did that with my ex and guess who calls the shots (not him) After one dui and then when he got his 2nd he knew he couldn't hold anything over me ever! I have never gone to jail or done any kind of drugs or anything bad. He had no cards and that is the trick to getting custody and getting what your kids need a safe and healthy upbringing! They deserve the best right? They are part of you right? If one parent can't do that for them then the other one better. Kids only remember how much boundries that adult people didn't give them and how safe grandma made them feel when they went to town to shop for oatmeal and strawberries, kids want to forget how awful a parent might make them feel if that parent doesn't get their way??!!??!! Just food for thought! I hope all goes well for you and this custody thing. Icky place to be but it must be done. GOOD LUCK!

[fifi]

thank you for the helpful response.  My kids are young - I'm being kind of terse and matter of fact with my post because I don't want my N to see the post and know it's me.  Good point about what the N will do to the kids - how he'll treat them - if he doesn't get his way!

[jessie]

Dear Fifi

It sounds to me as if your H has Borderline Personality Disorder rather than N, or possibly has some N traits.
do some reading on this topic
good luck

[Anonymous]

fifi,

Good decision to divorce this monster. Would he make a good parent? No. He is very disturbed, antisocial (arrests, flaunting of laws), irresponsible, disrespectful to their mother, abusive to their mother, etc. He's a rotten parent. Your first priority is to protect your children. Don't second guess this one.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Dear Fifi,

I join the battle cry.  Go to www.bpdcentral.com and look up the information about how to protect yourself when divorcing someone like this.  BPD stands for borderline personality disorder.  Get a good lawyer, the best you can find and ask them if they have experience in dealing with someone like this.  Tell him/her upfront that you expect the worst.  Take PROACTIVE action.  Don't give him a chance to slander you and put you on the defensive.  Decide on a game plan and do it.  And keep a log, record events with dates.  Protect yourself and don't be apologetic, or feel selfish or guilty about it.  

Ns/BPDs are too shortsighted to understand or accept the consequences of their own decisions and actions.  This situation is not your fault just because they can't accept that it's theirs and have to put the blame on you.  Don't be distracted by blame.  Just stick to your gameplan and keep your eyes on YOUR goal.  

Good luck.  Seeker

[CP]

I divorced a N and have a child. for the last year I have been trying to "manage" the visits.& we all know that you cannot really manage a N in any productive way.I felt that keeping my son away from him was cruel.But let me share my year long struggle.N's are know for no empathy and self indulgance.This will be evident in your ex's relationship w/the children.He will be inconsistent,reckless and at times put the children at risk due to the behaviors many N's portray especially in times of stress or anxiety such as a divorce.He may expose him to sexual escapades w/other women,and of course violence(i agree w/ others that he sounds more BPD. But all in all-you can always give more custody later if it works out and all is calm..but its VERY hard to take away once you give custody.For your sanity and the kids safety and in order for you to maintain control over his behavior around your children. Severly limit visitation and try to limit overnight..like I said if a year down the line he's doing good then re-visit.You have made a huge step now dont let him control you or your children in the future.Give little,expect nothing...and examine later...

[fifi]

Hi CP, Bunny, Jessie, Seeker, and Guests,
Thank you.  CP, thank you for sharing your experience with this.  I do realize i can always give more custody but not take it away.  it's good to be reminded of this.  And yes, he certainly HAS shown inconsistency, recklessness with his current visitation - i.e. constantly trying to change the visitation days, being late getting them and returning them, cancelling last minute, not letting me know - and more iimportantly them know - if he's going to see them that evening, taking them overnight on a day that he knew I had special plans with them without warning, to keep them from me, and other cruel things.  He also carts them around constantly on long long drives, like they're fedex packages, all the time.  He had no consistent bedtime for them- "it's up to them when they want to go to sleep" and they're young, etc.  

My N is probably both - borderline and N.  I wrote a detailed description of my story once on this site, but my N found it and now I can't go into too much detail and I had to change my name, bc my N is probably periodically checking this board.  Too bad.  He even had to ruin my outlet - i've received so much help from this board and the wonderful people on it but now i have to go back into hiding.

Thank you all again.