Author Topic: is arguing a N trait?  (Read 2113 times)

James

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is arguing a N trait?
« on: April 04, 2008, 02:12:04 AM »
I am wondering if arguing is a characteristic of narcissists. As long as i remember my dad will argue about anything. Even the smallest of topics can easily and suddenly turn into a major affair. In fact i can't remember too many conversations that didn't feel like they were an argument of some sort. Often when i try and escape by saying lets drop the subject he keeps on and even becomes more aggressive. Anything can precipate this. It doesn't have to be anthing of controversy. He used to be very good at dragging me into these crazy arguments to the point where i would become confused and then contradict something i just said and that was all he needed to turn on the heat. I rarely see him anymore but everytime i do its the same. I can feel him just waiting for something to start an issue over. The last few times i have seen him i mostly made the smallest of talk and even sat there in silence. He actually implied that i was being rude on purpose. Just another way to drag me in as i see it. This guy has to win at the smallest of anything. I am not sure if this is a N trait or if its just particular to him but its absolutely crazy making.     James

teartracks

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 02:39:25 AM »




Hi James,

I don't think arguing is a hallmark of narcissism, but it certainly sounds like your father has adopted arguing for the sake of arguing as part of his N arsenal. 

Arguing done right can be healthy and productive in caring relationships.

tt


 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 02:42:17 AM by teartracks »

Chamomile

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 07:26:49 AM »
I think it could be because it is a sign of being very defensive, of thinking that everyone has to agree with you and feeling threatened if they don't agree with you.  But I kno my Nmom doesn't argue much anymore at all-- because she has completely surrounded herself with those who agree with her and support all her thoughts.  To get into an argument now really disturbs her deeply.  She immediately devalues and withdraws from whoever disagrees with her.  But when I was little, oh yes, she argued with everyone all the time, tryign to get everyone to see why and how they were wrong.

I am like this a little bit.  Well, more that I was, a lot, and now, hardly at all.  I still have the urge to make everyone see how right I am about everything-- sometimes-- :P -- but I try to squelch it by reminding myself that 1. maybe I'm not rigth about everything (hard to believe, haha) 2. maybe they need to learn things in their own timeframe; people develop spiritually by living the wrong beliefs and then adjusting them-- it's a slow process-- so they'll seek out different ideas or beliefs when they're ready.

Anyway . . . it still bothers me a lot when my dh disagrees with me, or has different priorities than me . . . because it makes me feel less validated-- and I still am in a place where I (think I) need my dh to validate me in almost everything.  Without outside validation from someone I respect I feel-- really empty and wrong . . . gosh I have issues . . . .

Ami

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 09:28:33 AM »
Dear James
  My NM will argue about ANYTHING and take ANY side, as long as she can argue. She loves to be better and know more than anyone . That is the point of arguring. Also, it shows that she is more "enlightened" than anyone .
 James, I think you are seeing it "right " with your F. You can't win IF you argue or do not argue. The deck is stacked against you, no matter which way you play.
That is the main point. You cannot win. The game is about power. Once, you know this, YOU will have the 'power" to neutralize it.
                        Love    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

towrite

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 09:32:27 AM »
James - my NF argued with me about everything as a way to put me down and get control over me. He was very insecure that I was smarter than he was, but he sure tried to kill any confidence I had. Is it possible yours is doing the same?

towrite
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Time wounds all heels.

SilverLining

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 05:51:37 PM »
Somewhere I read recently that disagreement can be a major prop for the person with a weak ego/personality structure.   Disagreement sets them apart and makes it seem (to them) they have really thought things through and created an important independent opinion.  Agreement with others is not nearly so effective as an ego propping tool, because it makes them feel like a "face in the crowd" and possibly weaker than others.  The substance of their position isn't as important as the process of being in opposition to another.  As TT suggested, argument may not be a hallmark of Nism, but it certainly seems to be one of the tools at their disposal.   


My father doesn't so much argue, but he does have a chronic habit of counterpointing nearly anything anybody else has to say.  He can contradict himself multiple times within a few minutes just to stay in a constant position of opposition.   Then a few days later he'll often have absorbed the same position he was previously opposed to.  It's a very weird and crazymaking experience to attempt interaction with the guy. 

James

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 11:01:22 PM »
Hi everyone..........thank you for your thoughts on this and sorry i am slow to respond. I had to catch up on work today and am tired and a little slow tonight. I do see the sense in what you have written and much of it can be applied to my dad. I guess arguing isn't just a trait limited to N but i can tell you when my dad uses this , arguing takes on a whole new meaning.He seems to take the concept and turn it into something of his own. It's frustrating and infuriates me to no end. I stay on guard all the time around this guy, just waiting for something to go wrong. It is crazy................James

mudpuppy

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 11:40:46 PM »
Well, Ns are universally control freaks so while there may be a few who control things otherwise, it seems to me the vast majority could pick a fight with a wooden Indian.

mud

gjazz

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 11:46:13 PM »
My father does this, too.  But I'm not sure it's real arguing, as in mutually respecting debate.  It's an attempt to self-aggrandize and at the same time, put everyone else in their place, thus making him feel superior and comfortable.  My NF will watch Fox News endlessly, bone up on topics, then test us for 1) basic knowledge of subject adn 2) appropriate viewpoint.  If you want a comforting story, I have one.  It's a little off-topic but related.  Recently my NF insisted that we all join him (at his expense, mostly) on vacation.  It was a Big Family Event, including my mother (whom he twice tried to murder) my brothers (who caught him in the act) and my latest stepmother, a scant two years younger than myself (we finally crossed that threshold).  All week, he repeated a story about how he'd made an older woman in a supermarket cry (supposedly she claimed to have been at the counter before him, when in reality, HE was FIRST), and he'd humiliated her right there by addressing not her, but the management, and made a scene.  My youngest brother, very successful, wife, two kids, and knew my father the least growing up and up who was until then the only one who still sort of idolized him, stared at my F as he told this story.  I felt my brother shift.  I felt his confusion followed by his understanding, and ultimate sadness, in the five looong minutes it took my NF to relay this tale to his captive table.  And my brother said, quietly, not at all congratulatory, "nice going."  And my NF was totally discombobulated.  None of us heard from him for three months after that.  

Ami

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 08:27:12 AM »
Well, Ns are universally control freaks so while there may be a few who control things otherwise, it seems to me the vast majority could pick a fight with a wooden Indian.

mud



That is really cute, Mud. I will not forget that image, next time my M fights about "nothing"(lol)               Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Iphi

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 10:36:47 PM »
gjazz wrote
Quote
But I'm not sure it's real arguing, as in mutually respecting debate. 

gjazz I think that is what I see as the big difference.  All the many times I butted heads with my dad, we never achieved a mutual understanding or compromise or insight into each other out of it.  He is always right.  Therefore, any argument is about beating the other person into submission.  No mutuality, no reciprocity.  No ability to see his own position as relative, instead of absolute.

I've been reading the Eckhart Tolle books, along with apparently everyone who watches Oprah lol! and he has some great points that I related to this topic about my dad.  Tolle says that the part of any of us that is the ego has to make itself superior, has to make itself right and that means that it must make the other person wrong.  We all have egos, but some people do not realize that they are not an ego, they just have an ego.  They don't realize they are more than their ego, so they let their ego, their controlling, competitive, domineering, making-others-wrong, side run all their lives.  They never are able to step outside of that and get some distance - to laugh at themselves, or control themselves. They don't realize there is any more to themselves than their crazy frikking ego.

By contrast when I argue, or heh discuss, with my H we always come to a place where we understand each other better and it puts us in sympathy.  We have compromise and apologies.  It's so incredibly different.  It feels right instead of wrong, even though 'wrong' is what was normal for my FOO and still is.
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

debkor

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2008, 11:10:08 AM »
I'm not so sure that it is an N trait.  Argue is to disagree.  Out of the two N's I have known it is clear that they disagree but don't care to argue it.  It's more of a fact to them.  There is no argument.  They don't care what the world thinks or is right or not it's NOT their world.

I think the argument came on my part and I was confused and learned the hard way that it is just a FACT to them.  They never hear a word you say they just keep stating the FACTS as sick,twisted and wrong as they may be. 

The one thing I did see is they did apply the rules to life and really agreed with things for everyone BUT NOT for them.  They are different and superior. And that's a fact (according to them) what's to argue?

Odd creatures they are.

Love
Deb

SilverLining

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2008, 05:42:09 PM »
interesting topic


Opinions stated as fact are arguments, however one-sided they become; and if one is constantly barraged with these sorts of riddles, it can really undermine one's own reality.


That's a very interesting post Bean and sure describes how my father and other N's I know operate.  First they state an opinion as fact and then anybody who even tries to discuss it is automatically on the defensive and comes off looking like a fool.  A saner person figures it isn't worth the argument and  doesn't even try to respond.   For me it really gets crazymaking when the opinions stated as fact shift around according to the mood of the day.  Why even try to discuss or argue a topic when the N will have shapeshifted into another position within a few minutes or days?  The non-N's in the environment get trained to just stay quiet. 

gjazz

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Re: is arguing a N trait?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2008, 06:07:46 PM »
Right--I think the whole point is putting everyone else on the defensive, and if they dare have another opinion, beating them into submission.  With my NF, I just started responding with, "I see."  He always assumes that means, "I agree."  And I just walk away.