Author Topic: anger and grief and Ns  (Read 3171 times)

axa

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anger and grief and Ns
« on: April 01, 2008, 06:21:14 PM »
I read this yesterday and would like to discuss it.  I got to paraphrase it as I cannot locate the quote but it was something like - angry men(guess women too)  behave in such a way because they do not know any other way to act out their grief.  Well, it nearly knocked my socks off.  It struck me as so profound.  I thought about it in the context of XN and I know he has never grieved for his lack of love in his young life.  Unlike a lot of people he shut down and locked in any good part of himself so that noone could access it, even himself.  The concept of using anger to substitute for grief seems so sad.  I believe I have often been angry because it felt safer than being sad but substituting the word grief for sadness touched me profoundly.  I am filled with compassion for xn in that this is the only way he knows or will ever know how to be in the word.  It will not change him and I know he wil continue to be as abusive as ever but I really do feel compassion - trust me, from a distance. 

One of my favourite writers/thinkers Anthony de Mello wrote about how one frees oneself from hate/anger is when one truly understands the other person and their behaviour, not in an analytical way but in a deeply human way.  I think this is what I am beginning to understand.  In case any of you think I feel it excuses N behaviour the answer is NO.  I believe people make choices as to how they behave and sadly others suffer at their hands but it has helped clear some of the fog for me.

Any thoughts,

axa

Ami

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 06:50:57 PM »
Dear Axa,
 I think I got this type of heart understanding of my M when I realized that *I* was underwater and she was, too. I could not swim up, even though I had tried everything. She could not ,either.
 Good topic, Axa.                              Peace,   Ami             

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

debkor

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 07:09:26 AM »
Axa,

Yes I do understand what you are saying. I'm not sure if what I have is compassion though.  Well maybe I do.  I do know somethings about my N's childhood and it was sad.  So for that yes I have compassion. I don't know why they become who they become and I do not make excuses for them either.  I do believe that they make the choice (maybe)  to stay inside themselves. Maybe the true self is long gone.
I'm not sure they know how to surface.  Maybe they really cannot. I really don't know. But the anger they have the abusers they become had nothing to do with me.  I understand this.

They are so complex that it is very difficult to understand and I'm sure I never will fully.  This understanding has been able to let me let it go.   


Axa,

I don't want to mix threads but I was writing on the forgiveness thread until we had a storm and the electric went out knocking out everything I typed.

I was writing that people interpert forgiveness as letting it go.  I interpert understanding as letting it go.  Then you wrote this post. 

I think I can forgive when I feel true remorse from someone who has harmed me but if you are an N you have no remorse or it does not last long. 

I cannot forgive/say it's alright I forgive you for holding a gun to my head when they have no remorse or the only remorse they have is in getting caught or in front of a parole board and if given the chance they would do it again because they are not normal either born that way or from their own abuse they  have suffered.

Once I understand this I can let it go.  I don't have to carry what they did to me for a lifetime.  I cannot change what they did but I can understand to a degree why or maybe or not at all because there may never be an answer for me and if that is all I understand then that is my key to letting it go.

I don't know Axa.

Does this make any sense to you?

I think that when I was forgiving or thought I was  maybe just my denial (oh that's ok) you didn't mean it, your good, you had a tuff life, I will never abandon you, I know your really a nice guy deep down inside  while married and not TRULY understanding is what kept me in bondage.  Understanding was my freedom in all ways.  I had no more connection even through anger nothing emotional. I truly let go.

I'm sorry if this does not belong on this thread I kind of went off on a typing spree. 

Love
Deb


towrite

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 10:06:19 AM »
Axa - I have an aunt who does this. She's not an N. But her anger is terrible to behold at times of sadness and loss. I have found myself doing it, too, when I cannot cry. I want to cry so badly but the tears just won't come. I battle it all the time.

towrite
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axa

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 06:23:01 PM »
  

Deb.

I think what kept me sane in the madness of XN was that every so often I would really know his anger was not about me, I would tell him this. I would say "I am not the one you hate" but I still felt the pain of the abuse also.


I was writing that people interpert forgiveness as letting it go.  I interpert understanding as letting it go.  Then you wrote this post.  I had not thought of understanding as letting go, mmhhh need to think about this Thank you.

I think I can forgive when I feel true remorse from someone who has harmed me but if you are an N you have no remorse or it does not last long. 

For me it is not difficult, usually, to forgive someone if they are genuinely remorseful and yes, I agree the N has no remorse so we are on the same hymn sheet here.

I cannot forgive/say it's alright I forgive you for holding a gun to my head when they have no remorse or the only remorse they have is in getting caught or in front of a parole board and if given the chance they would do it again because they are not normal either born that way or from their own abuse they  have suffered.


You see here, an this is just a teasing out of the topic, ok, it makes forgiveness conditional and if it is conditional is it really forgiveness.  Also who does the forgiveness impact on, the guy with the gun to your head probably cares less about forgiveness, yours or anyone else, so do we forgive, in this instance for ourselves, so that we can benefit in some way? (this is something I have been discussing with my friend a lot lately and so I will add our conversation to the topic)  If we forgive only those who are remorseful then forgiveness becomes some sort of currency.  I will give to you if I get what I want from you.  I wonder about the "spirit" of forgiveness and somehow currency does not feel like it should be part of it. 

Once I understand this I can let it go.  I don't have to carry what they did to me for a lifetime.  I cannot change what they did but I can understand to a degree why or maybe or not at all because there may never be an answer for me and if that is all I understand then that is my key to letting it go.

And maybe understanding/forgiveness/letting go are all mixed up together and components of the same thing.  I don't know either Deb but I do find it very interesting to think about.  My own experience of forgiving is time passes and one day I realise that what has happened seems so long ago that it does not feature in my life, is this forgiveness?  It does not mean it did not matter, and I don't care, it just means it has ceased to be present in my life.  I was thinking today is it like a wound, it hurts, I scream in pain, I blame, someone tells me I shoud get over it but they are not feeling the pain, and years later I see the faint scar and remember what happened but do not feel connected with the event any more.

And just to add to this I read somewhere "only the unforgiviable is forgiviable" - now there is something to think about Deb!  Thank you for engaging in this with me I find it facinating.

xxx axa and by the way, not so hot at forgiving well, not yet anyway but working on it.  I do think ultimately I benefit if I can forgive.

I don't know Axa.

Does this make any sense to you?

I think that when I was forgiving or thought I was  maybe just my denial (oh that's ok) you didn't mean it, your good, you had a tuff life, I will never abandon you, I know your really a nice guy deep down inside  while married and not TRULY understanding is what kept me in bondage.  Understanding was my freedom in all ways.  I had no more connection even through anger nothing emotional. I truly let go.


Well done and I have an understanding of this.  I can say that in ways I think Nism is like a form of autism only in the sense that I know XN really has no ability to connect with other humans relationally.  The difference being, I guess, people with autism are not manipulative or devious, they do not try to be something they are not and abuse people but I am reminded, when around autistic people, of the lack of connection, the inability to have eye contact etc is just the way XN was.  So for that part I feel compassion.  For the abuse, he so knew what he was doing and I have no doubt is still doing.

I'm sorry if this does not belong on this thread I kind of went off on a typing spree. 

No problem, good to talk

xxx

axa

Love
Deb


[/quote]

axa

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 06:24:43 PM »
Ami and towrite,

It is so difficult - oh for more release and compassion,

axa

lighter

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 08:42:58 AM »
Axa, so glad to see you're seeking to more deeply understand and forgive exN.....

from a great distance. 

Lighter

gratitude28

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 09:32:35 AM »
Axa,
This is such a great topic. I wonder why the only emotion an N can access is anger? I have never seen NM have any other kind of emotion. She has been depressed, but I don't think this is an emotion, rather a state. She became depressed after some deaths in the family. I wonder if that was because she didn't have any tools to deal with the emotions she should have had??? I honestly can say I have never seen anything but envy or anger from her. I have seen false emotions - pretend ones. I have also never seen her cry. Actually, that is so interesting, I think I might bring it up on a thread.
Thanks for an interesting idea.
Love, Beth
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Hopalong

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2008, 11:46:16 AM »
Axa, what a great thread, and Deb, you too...
not sure I can tease the two posts apart but I love the topic.

I like the notion that understanding is letting it go, and forgiveness is a different thing.

I think I can even forgive someone who has no remorse. If they have a broken empathy function, I figure their remorse function doesn't work either. How could you have remorse unless you were capable of empathy?

With an N who totally lacks either (it's always a continuum, not on-N or off-N)...I'd forgive and let go and keep a safe distance, or possibly try to help have them locked up. No tolerance for violence.

xo
Hops
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lighter

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2008, 12:18:10 AM »
Love this thread....

LilyCat

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2008, 01:35:47 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm new to this board; the subject of Ns and anger et al got my attention.

I've recently come through a massively awful experience with an N; the relationship wasn't as deep as a family member or spouse, but he was -- are you ready for this -- my pastor, and as such, he was someone I knew and truly loved and cared for at a very deep level for 10 years. His pastoral (false) personality was really wonderful, and I loved him like a brother. I'm generally very perceptive, and I never saw through him; he was that good. Long story short, he was/is getting divorced, he targeted me as n supply, which makes total sense; we are very, very much alike -- or at least, the real me and the false him -- except that I'm not an N, I'm the opposite; etc etc etc.. I thought he was in love with me, since he pursued me (very cleverly) and sure acted like it; I knew nothing about Ns until it was all over. Eventually he brought me up on harassment charges -- twice! -- within the church. It was incredibly hurtful and humiliating ... but also a profound growth experience. It has lead me to a huge juncture in my life, the very growth spot where I need to be, I think.

...if you can keep in mind that the betrayal aspect of this is the most hurtful (the romantic part was only about 5% of the deal) -- that a pastor would bring charges up against a parishioner without ever talking directly about it (he was projecting and I had, I do believe, given him a huge narcissistic injury before each time he initiated charges). Also, I've felt betrayed by a firiend and someone I loved (non-romantic aspect); AND I've had to suss out the whole the-person-I-knew-doesn't-exist thing, which led me into a vast nowhere-land of what the last 10 years of spiritual guidance meant, if anything ... and on and on and on. The experience has many, many layers.

So -- that's why the topic of Ns and anger and forgiveness grabbed my attention. I have been struggling with all of that during the past three months. And here is what I have to offer, based on my experience and thoughts and perceptions:

Regarding anger -- the way to get rid of anger is to get in touch with it, allow yourself to feel it fully, and voice it to someone appropriate -- i.e., a therapist or in group therapy. Yes, it's important to express our anger directly to the person it involves, but "core" anger really needs the hard work.

Talking about anger will relieve it. If it is a vast storehouse of anger left over from your FOO, this could take a lot of time -- years. But it's essential work.

That said, my personal opinion and experience are that the real path to forgiveness lies in feeling your anger and letting it out. I personally don't think you can truly forgive someone until you've dealt with the anger. I've never heard anyone else, therapist or layperson, say this, but it's based on my experience. I really do believe anger is the way to forgive. Forgiveness is not a mental process; it understanding the situation as fully possible; understanding and getting in touch with your own feelings, and then assessing what you want to do with them.

I think at that point compassion, and understanding and "seeing" the other person as much as you can, enter in, and then, if it is your desire and you feel that compassion, you can forgive. Or perhaps if you've done that it happens anyway, don't know. I always reach for forgiveness. Understanding our mutual humanity certainly is a key.

And as far Ns and anger and forgiveness -- been there, done that, got the T-shirt. After these several months of going through the harassment charges and resulting investigation/process (happy to say I was exonerated), dealing with the betrayal and awfulness of it all, and just trying to figure it all out ... here is where I'm at:

They can't help it. This is what they do. These crazy, awful, mean, horrific things are just what they do. I don't think it's even malicious and perhaps not even intentional. I think at times they may perceive that what they're doing is wrong (I am hoping this N knows that, particularly since he's a pastor), but I don't think they care. They're amoral, of sorts. If they can't see our humanity, why would they care what they do to us? That would be inconsistent.

When I think about my former pastor and the things he did to me, and the many incredible things that have surfaced since he left, I can only conclude that he is a very, very, very broken person. Someone who feels good about himself does not bring a parishioner, and/or someone he's fond of (which he was before the divorce), up on harassment charges without speaking about it first (this guy was heads and shoulders the best pastor I've ever met -- incredible). Someone who feels good about himself does not stick his church with the mortgage for a house the church helped him buy; or simply not pay property taxes on his house. Someone who feels good about himself does not have affair after affair after affair and many of them simultaneously ... or use other people to meet his needs, and on and on and on. They do not do all the many unbelievable things I now know he's done. Only a person who truly hates himself unto infinity would act in such a way; and underneath that self-hatred must be one very shamed-feeling person with less self-esteem than even I lacked at the very lowest point of my life.

And all that undoubtedly emanates from one bad childhood (I know just a few bits and pieces of it, and they are awful, like most Ns, I think).

Now that I've dealt with my own feelings (mostly, I'm sure it's not completely over) and especially felt the anger and other feelings, I can only feel love and compasson for him, still. I have debated with myself whether I "should," or if it is better to turn a cold shoulder and mentally leave him (he left our church and is at another; the resolution of the charges is that we both committed to not contacting the other, which I think was a very wise decision on the investigating committee's part).

All I can tell you is, I can't. I feel enormous, enormous compassion for this man, even now. I see his emptiness; and I know for myself what it is to feel that empty, so it's easy for me to empathize. Having come full circle, I still/now care for him, perhaps even more deeply. My heart genuinely goes out to him; I see him possibly better than he sees himself. Even though I don't have much experience with the real him, I still love him; it is in his brokenness that I find love and compassion for him. He simply can't help, at least at this stage in his life, and possibly/probably never, what he is.

He is disordered.

And when I realized that, the anger went away; his maliciousness was no longer personal from him to me; and I found forgiveness and love and compassion.

Of course, I can do that because I have no contact with him; I don't have to live with him or interact with him. But I want you all to know that I will always, always pray for him and for the people in his path. It would be one of my greatest joys in life to see him have the courage to go back and do the work he needs to do to experience life fully, as the rest of us do even in our fraiilties and foibles.

I believe human transformation is always possible, and that is my eternal prayer for him. Although he uses the church and his profession for his own needs, to obtain narcissistic supply, still, in that falsity he does and has done enormous good for an amazing amount of people. In his pursuit of me, his idealization did many good things for me that I sorely needed; and in the darkness of his betrayal, I also was able to see and confront some massive changes that I have long needed to make for myself; I intellectually knew they were there, but I couldn't get in touch with them and didn't understand exactly what they meant. Now, i do.

So can you hate someone for being that kind of catalyst for growth? I guess you can. I guess you could also say he's a selfish ... man  (another word comes to mind) who blasphemes the name of God ... and that would be true. But ...

... I think mental health is being able to hold both such contrasts in your hands, always seeing the scales of balance slowly shifting from one side to another, and being okay with that.

???? That's where I'm at.


Hopalong

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 02:52:43 AM »
Hello and welcome, Lily...

What a classic and horrifying N saga. I believe every word, and thanks for sharing your story. So many articles talk about Ns in public life, in leadership positions...and how many of them do much good in these roles. It seems like such a conundrum.

You have a very sharp and clear picture of who he is, I think. It sounds like a very good thing that you are now away from him permanently, that you have established and will maintain No Contact, and that you are moving on.

In these last spasms of attachment, emotions are still swirling, and one can miss the enormous intensity of emotion that one can experience only with an Nman. The sparkle, the attention, the orbit -- it's all so DAZZLING.

I think the true experience of mental health is a word that usually doesn't compute much, when one is still responding to the memories, the gravitational pull, the obsessive thoughts...serenity.

I am glad you can share your story here, and I know you will find much support and wisdom as you work to uncover your psyche and let it breathe, and find your own serenity in the aftermath.

Welcome again.

Hopalong
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LilyCat

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Re: anger and grief and Ns
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 10:48:45 AM »
Hopalong,

Thank you so much, and thank you for the warm welcome.

Serenity is a good word, and you're right, you don't hear it a lot. It's also a beautiful-sounding word, I think

I'm doing pretty well, I think -- it's almost all behind me -- but certainly a lesson I will never forget! Just very sad that this wonderful person doesn't exist.

And oye!! All the stuff that came out within 48 hours of his leaving was just unbelievable. I think that's what made it so easy to go on. These people in so many ways are such a mystery.

Thanks again -- I am so touched and impressed by the many warm and genuine welcomes I've received here. How wonderful! I look forward to learning about and sharing with everyone here.

Peace,

LilyCat