Author Topic: What Do You Think It Would Take????  (Read 2053 times)

gratitude28

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What Do You Think It Would Take????
« on: July 22, 2008, 07:55:43 PM »
What do you think it would take for the Golden Child to move out of pure denial and discontinue defending the NParent??????? Can they??? Could they??????
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

gjazz

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 12:46:49 AM »
G28:

Ah yes.  This is my NF.  The absolute, 100% golden child--to the extent that his older sister was a nothing, and she and their mother were routinely laughed at and put down at the dinner table until they ran away in tears. That was the night's entertainment.

I can only tell you this: my NF KNOWS.  He knows who and what he was.  His own NF and desperate mother were both dead by the time he was in his early 20's.  He took up the mantle and carried the torch.  Big time.  And now, I can only say to you with all honesty: he's faced with four middle-aged children who don't cut him any slack, and he's trying to reconfigure his whole life.  It's agonizing, but it's real, and we watch and hope.  Because maybe he's not lost to us entirely, after all.

Ami

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 07:11:29 AM »
Dear Beth
 I just wanted to respond to your question even though I may not have much wisdom. I think that a big life circumstance can change long held beliefs. When a huge life circumstance comes, you question everything. It shakes you up like a blender.
 You don't know which old ideas will go and which will remain.
 Maybe, you get more willing to honor your own truth b/c honoring the false one brought you untold sorrow.
 That would be my thoughts on it.
  I hope your sister faces reality ,some day.I know that is your wish for her.      Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

gratitude28

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 07:52:32 AM »
Yes, Ami, no doubt you are right... for her facing the truth might mean facing a lot of truths about herself as well. And, as you said, I had nothing to lose :)
 gjazz, does your NF have emotions and feelings? My sister does. I think she is very confused, but I get so annoyed dealing with it.
I am feeling so frustrated with the whole group.
Have to see them all in a week.
Thank you for reading and posting.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Certain Hope

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 08:20:31 AM »
Hi Beth,

I don't know what it might take, but I guess that depends on how deeply invested she is in denying reality. In other words, how much of her identity is sourced from the role of being "Golden"?
That's an awfully skimpy well to try to draw from when relentless trials hit.

So I think Golden would have to recognize her own emptiness and choose to forge her own, genuine identity, apart from N and how she relates to her. With that choice to individuate comes the complete revelation, over time, of the scope of the illusion previously cast by the false self.

When you’re told for as long as you can remember, for instance, that you were such a good baby (because you never cried)… that’s a tough act to follow, you know?

Could you describe how you envision it would be if Golden saw the light? What would she do exactly and how might her choices affect you?

Love,
Carolyn
 

gratitude28

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 08:39:07 AM »
Carolyn,
As usual, you find just what I need to hear. Are you trained at poking at the psyche??  :lol:
Maybe I would want validation, instead of the attitude that I am "against" NM. GC can complain about their faults, but I cannot. If I mention one negative point, I am quickly corrected. GC doesn't see the reality... an example, GC says NM is developing "friendships." Well, the friends are tools, people who facilitate her hobbies. Were they to no longer be needed, she would turn on them like she has on everyone else. It bothers me that a person as intelligent as my sister cannot see what is in front of her. Every conversation deals with how NM is "getting better" or changing in some way (not my prompting), when in fact, NM just says these things and changes not at all and GC believes her.
So... what would I get?????? Validation????? Some respect as a person?????? I just don't know. It's a very good question. I will think about it and see what it is I am searching for.
Thank you Carolyn.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2008, 09:20:22 AM »
Beth,

 :lol:  Been poking my own psyche plenty, lately... just thought I'd share the joy... lol.

You know, the scenario you've described could just as well be that of a wife complaining about her obnoxious husband. She can go on and on, day after day, griping about his behavior... but no one else is "allowed" to speak negatively about him. Why is that? All of that venting allows the person to go right back into the relational sewer and store up another load of poo.

I think your sister sees as much as she cares to see, Beth.
The revealing question is:  why would she be so deeply invested in trying to convince you that NM is changing?
Does she really believe that? I doubt it.
So why does she keep bringing up the subject?
Seems to me that GC is using you to vicariously act out her own angst toward NM while keeping her own hands clean. At the same time, I bet GC is terrified that she's only a slip away from becoming just like NM.
That became my biggest fear.
I think that GC's identity is so enmeshed with mom that she takes it quite personally when someone else sees the negative. So if you reject mom, then you're rejecting her.

Makes me wonder what might happen if you told your sister that the topic of mom and her antics is off-limits between you two and the you'd like to learn to relate to her independently of all that.
Not even sure whether that's possible, at least at this point, but... wouldn't it be nice??

Love,
Carolyn

gratitude28

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2008, 10:35:41 AM »
Wow, Carolyn. All I can say is wow. You have really opened my eyes. It all makes perfect sense.
I don't know if I could have the topic be off limits. It's a good thing to consider. I really don't know what boundaries to make with my sister at all. We have been through so much and changes so much, and yet stayed the same. I just don't really know who she is, or how we fit. And you are very right - she often mentions things that point at worry about being like NM. And she fights so hard to NOT be like her (I went through that too when I first left and lived on my own).
How did you break free, Carolyn? What ended your denial?????
My sister does defend her husband the same way - that is funny.
So much clarity. So much to think about.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2008, 12:03:52 PM »
Beth,

I really appreciate the opportunity to talk like this.  Thank you!  See, this isn't stuff that I necessarily recognize as having been figured out, by any means. It's more like a process of thinking aloud, prompted by your circumstances (with which I've always felt a great deal in common) and recognizing what all has fit together into a bigger picture... and that helps me alot, too. So these are just some more thoughts....

About your sister and knowing her.... there's nobody home (yet), you know?  There's a candle flickering in the attic, but each time the wind blows, it threatens to extinguish. It's just a very fragile state of affairs. She is probably so into people-pleasing that she tends to become like whomever she's with at the moment.
I mean, your sister doesn't really know who she is, either.
If she is like I was, all she's had, so far, is a series of roles... and as intelligent as she is, at a gut level - she probably needs to receive "permission" to simply break from all that and practice being herself!
This has got to be affecting her marriage, too... because she has most likely never been able to emotionally leave the original family and cleave to her husband.
It's quite a predicament. I remember my long-ago husband saying that I was so different around my original family... and he was right. That's a common complaint, from all that I've read, and it can go on for many years, if a person doesn't deliberately choose to make that break into emotional adult-hood.

Your sister probably knows that she does not, can not ever actually measure up to the Golden role.  I bet she is too honest to fall 100% in line with the whole game of pretend, but N keeps the bread buttered just attractively enough to keep her trying. When the carrots aren't as effective, then guilt and pity are employed. Keeping a dirty, messy house may be part of that whole set-up. A kind-hearted, empathetic individual would feel sorry for someone who was unable to even tend to her surroundings, right? It may appear to be a pathetic mess.... but just watch the sparks fly if you tried to help clean it up. Manipulators do love their tools.

What especially got to me was... when you're Golden, N won't let you admit to faults and failings within yourself or encourage any sort of realistic self appraisal, because if you can see your own shortcomings, then you can see hers... and that is absolutely not allowed.
For an individual who wants to practice integrity, this presents an impossible dilemma. Any attempt at self-examination and growth threatens the relationship with N, which - for a lifetime - has been viewed as the source of all sustenance. Truly, that umbilical cord can grow to monumental proportions. The really major break for me was marrying NPD-ex. Okay, so it wasn't a break... it was a trade-off. In fact, sometimes I've wondered whether my mother didn't see her own N-self in him... because he certainly was the straw that broke alot of camels' backs.  Long before he ever became a real menace, she actually told me that I could come back "home" to get away from the "overgrown infant", as she called him. Later, when I discovered info about NPD and gave her all the descriptions of it... oh, man, was she quiet.
At that point, I still didn't get it... how much the NPD description fit her.
Now I see... those two are kindred spirits. No wonder she hated him.

And another semi-random thought...
To me, the game of N is much like that of a non-custodial parent, where each visitation is made to appear like a weekend at Disneyland. Well, that may be a nice place to visit, but who wants to live there? N does. So do some Goldens... the ones who never grow up.
Well, you know how some non-custodial parents make it their mission to bash the other parent? To the prize (the child) they'll cast the other in the role of the perennial bad guy, who enforces all the discipline and deprives the prize of all pleasure. Between N and Golden, there is always some character who's got to wear the black hat. In my case, it was my dad and brother... well, men in general. Later, it was my husband. With your sis, the black hat changes places depending on how introspective she might be feeling that day. Most days, I bet she places it onto herself... simply because she can't bear to try to blame someone else. That's what I did. It was easier for me to wear it than to choose between others I loved.... and that is how it felt - like I was being asked to choose. All I knew was, I did not want to be the "prize" anymore.

How I'm getting free of this is a work in progress. Mostly, I'd say... I got to feeling like I'd used up my "do-overs" and ran out of ways to try to destroy myself, so... it pretty much became an imperative that I had to choose once and for all - do I want to live my own life or keep trying to get someone else to do that for me? Focusing on all of these other people was not getting me anyplace.
That's really the choice your sister must make... that we all must make, I think.
Hope this helps... it has really helped me. Thanks again (((((((Beth)))))).

Love,
Carolyn

gjazz

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 02:45:16 PM »
Beth:

M NF does have emotions and feelings, he just tends to "reroute" them.  In that I mean, if he feels helpless, he takes it out on those around him he sees as vulnerable, rather than deal with it directly.  He's a bully.  And he cannot empathize.   Mostly, his emotions get converted to anger, and he acts on that, but that doesn't mean the emotions aren't there to begin with.

gratitude28

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 09:58:29 PM »
gjazz,
I really hope your father is able to make some relationships with you now. Perhaps it took him being completely alone to see what mattered to him. I hope that you will see some growth.

Carolyn,
I really am amazed at your post. Have you learned all this by yourself??? I remembered something that totally relates to what you said here - my NM has decided that I was the "honest" child and my sister was the one who skated by on half-truths. She tells me that whenever she talks to me. I really think she even identifies with my sister on that (and that's why she states this). NM knows she is less than hones, and in believing my sister is as well, it validates that her behavior is OK. The reality is that my sister was not dishonest, and I was a normal child - did a bit of both :) (It's hard to accept my flaws even now - to look back and say I acted like a normal teen. I still feel so much angst over normal teen doings).
Gosh, I really think it's true that my sister tries desperately to please everyone. It seems to me that she never relaxes - never lets her guard down.
Carolyn, this post was so important to me because now I can accept without anger the fact that my sister is so defensive. I needed that understanding. I really thank you.
I am also glad that you were able to get something out of the subject.
Thank you again, so much.

Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Overcomer

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 09:18:13 AM »
My brother and my mom have a special relationship.  He sees her as a prize that only he can have.  He does not see how she acts around me.
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 10:01:04 PM »
Beth, you're so welcome! I'm surprised and also very glad if anything I can contribute is useful to you  :D

Now I'm puzzled about this honesty/half-truth comparison.
Does your M actually use the expression "skated by" with reference to your sister?

Got my curiousity roused and now I'm lookin to build a theory... lol.

((((((((Beth))))))))  when does this next get-together occur?

Love,
Carolyn

gratitude28

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2008, 07:47:30 AM »
OC, I think you are right - my NM does not let my sister see how she truly is with me. I am sure she talks about me as if we have talked and as if she has some relationship with the kids. She is a master at overinflating small details.


Carolyn,

I will try to remember how she says it... It is one of her newer "truisms." She makes these ridiculous statements - like when I said my son was being difficult, "Kids turn back into humans once they turn 8." Depending on whom I talked about and their ages, she would throw out that statement with a number filled in.

At any rate... She says something along the lines of realizing I was always honest about everything and fessed up if I had to. My sister, on the other hand, would just change the subject, or throw out an answer that was somewhat on subject. For example, once I went to a party when I was supposed to be at a dance and I was drinking. It was obvious when NM picked me up, so I told the truth (and was pretty devastated at being caught, but I had no sneaking skills). My sister would go to parties and have a drink, but say nothing about it.

Now, the huge difference is, I was allowed to do basically nothing. So the few times I did get to go out, I went wild. I dropped all sports and events and had no idea how to have friends because they complained incessantly about having to drive me or deal with it. So when I did get to be with others, I was wild, looking for attention. My sisiter had sports and plays and afterschool activities. She went to friends' houses. She had friends.

Now, I don't know if it is because they complained less with her, or because she just chose not to take their whinings to heart. I felt like each complaint was a dagger (trying to please?) and she never has taken them as hard as I have.

Does that answer your question at all? Do you feel that you also skated the truth, Carolyn, in some way? Is that why you asked????


Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

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Re: What Do You Think It Would Take????
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2008, 08:53:07 AM »
Beth,

What puzzled me was a sort of wonderment that NM would actually recognize and acknowledge anything less than perfection in the one she's designated to be Golden.
So I wondered who had boiled this something-less-than-forthright behavior down to "skating by"... you or NM?
See, this may be a projection from my own mother's bag of tricks, but I suspect that NM actually admires such ability to shmooze and avoid... and so she would not consider it a negative, but rather a positive attribute in your sister - because, after all, appearances are everything and avoiding reality is the prime directive.

Don't think I really had anything to skate on, since nobody ever asked me anything. ever.
Life growing up was always a matter of "don't ask, don't tell". Really... just supposed to grow up knowing how to live life via osmosis, I guess.
Besides, I was a very late bloomer and didn't get involved in any sort of drinking or partying until well after high school, at which point my M seems to have put me totally out of her mind so that she could pursue her own grand plans. For a few years there, I became such a treasure trove of glaring imperfections that I guess she could barely tolerate the sight of me... so I obliged her and made myself very scarce. My parents had put the family home up for sale, not mentioning a word to me about where I might fit into the changing picture...
Dad came and got me once, when I was drinking heavily and staying in a flop-house dump with a handful of other rejected 19 year olds whose families had never taught them that they were worthy of a life of their own and how to manage such. I cannot even remember what happened then. Of course, we never talked about it.
Eek... I was so very lost and clueless. And all of that to say... No, I don't think I skated. More like fumbling around on hands and knees, getting gouged by jagged shards and bloodying the ice, hoping someone might notice the mess.

Those NM truisms are something, for sure, Beth. NPD-ex had loads of them, mainly with reference to a person's nationality/ethnic heritage. A pigeon-hole for everyone, and everyone in his pigeon-hole.
With each potential problem person neatly boxed, N never has to concern him- or her-self
with personal responsibility for how relationships with others falter and fail.

And you know what stands out to me after all this... they really don't like people, in general, and that's what strikes me so strongly when I meet folks now. You can tell in pretty short order... they may be fascinated with sizing you up, but that's as far as their interest in others extends.
Sometimes I have felt like an item set on the counter at a UPS mailing station.
Measured, sized, wrapper selected... and I don't want to wait till I'm drowing in styrofoam peanuts before I bail. Never again.

Love,
Carolyn

P.S.  Re: 
Quote
I am sure she talks about me as if we have talked and as if she has some relationship with the kids. She is a master at overinflating small details.

Exactly! There is no substance.