Author Topic: is narcissism a disease or evil?  (Read 32376 times)

mattiedread

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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2004, 11:18:01 AM »
I've agonized over whether NPDs are evil or sick. In the case of my mother (severe, 11 on the 0-10 scale, quite coniving and clever and fooled most of the people most of the time).

In one sense I feel sorry for her because she is clearly sick (she believes her own lies at this point, she can not distiguish between reality and 'her perspective' as she calls it).

But, like other Ns I've read about on this board, she plans, plots... she makes conscious decisions to do evil things and then does them. She clearly has the intent to do evil. Therefore, she is evil. She knows what she does is wrong and makes attempts to cover her tracks before she makes them. It is deliberate and premeditated.

She chooses to be evil, every day.

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2004, 06:03:46 PM »
I used to believe some people were evil.

My definition of evil being that the person was totally devoid of conscience,
possessed by a desire to cause harm, and composed entirely of pure negativeness.

As time has gone by, I've gained some knowledge and understanding of people's feelings and behaviour, in general, and I have given up the above belief.

Instead, I think some people behave in ways that make them appear to fit my definition of evil, but they themselves, are not evil.  There is some good in every person, even those who behave in the worst ways.
They do have good qualities but their behaviour often poses a barrier for others to see those qualities.  Their childhood environment may have repressed all mention of anyone's good qualities, or a psychological defect, or illness, may override most everything else, so the person behaves immorally/evilly/consciencelessly/harmfully/negatively-- as a result, as if possessed or unable to change.  The good person in there gets stifled.

A person's morals do not define what is inside the person, or define their feelings, because those morals must be learned, and the value of them must be learned, and that learning is separate from feelings.  Morals are not part of us from birth.  Behaving immorally is behaviour, not a genetically definable trait, as far as I know, and there is nothing concrete to be located or isolated for treatment.

People who behave in evil ways may know the difference between right and wrong but for whatever reason, they get better value out of behaving wrongly.  They haven't learned the value of behaving  morally correctly, or they make a choice to behave immorally due to any number of events, circumstances and/or thoughts/urges.  We all have immoral thoughts and feelings sometimes, or face events, or are in some circumstance that tempts us to behave immorally.  Some people choose the wrong path a lot more often than others.

To know their feelings, we would have to be inside there somehow and actually feel what they feel.  That is impossible but the next best thing is to imagine and try to empathize or put ourselves in their shoes.  I find it difficult to do sometimes because the behaviour is so nasty but it's doable with effort.

Without knowing the value of behaving mostly morally correctly, with an abusive environment in which to grow, or with a mental illness that is defining/confusing/upsetting their thoughts, I don't imagine that person having a whole lot of good feelings.

If their thinking is bad, they feel bad things, and they more often behave badly.  They may be totally unaware that they have a problem.

If the person has been diagnosed, it is easier to imagine the turmoil.
If the person has never been labelled by a doctor, we can allow for the possibility that one could be given, which might clarify the behaviour patterns more clearly and make it easier to undertand the illness.

In the end, since thoughts greatly effect our feelings and then our behaviour, I have to admit that a person with such a background is probably behaving in evil ways due to circumstances beyond their control, or due to improper learning and surely, their thinking is messed up in very big ways.   Some are definately making choices to behave badly, but they may not be able to choose otherwise, unless something drastic occurs to help them think healthier and make correct choices, such as a magic pill (haven't seen one of those around) or a brain transplant (which I would like too please when they get really good at doing those).

Habit is formed when people behave in however ways, over a period of time, and habit must be broken-- to effect a change in behaviour.  I've recovered from some habits and I know how tough it was for me.  It must be an immense thing to overcome habitually evil behaviour and very hard work indeed to change it.   A great desire must exhist before any change will happen in our behaviour.  A person must strongly want to change before a habit can be ended and must be aware that there is a problem that needs fixing.

A sick mind does not repair itself, it gets worse, without attempts being made to help make it better, and in some cases, even with those attempts.  The info on N seems to indicate no known way to correct the problem.  One may be found, some day, maybe.  Who knows?  Until then, I'm sticking with the idea that these people are ill, messed up, and/or incorrectly taught, with very sick thinking, but good people, who behave in evil ways, in varying degrees, due to any number of causes, or yet to be determined causes.  It's a much longer, harder to grasp definition than my evil one but seems to me more accurate a description.  To simplify it- the disease is evil, not the person, imo.

It would be a lovely thing if some cure could be found wouldn't it?  Such a cure would put one more evil disease to rest and prevent so much pain for so many.

s

Anonymous

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Excuses
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2004, 11:52:59 AM »
I hear a latent symptom of denial in the last post. The illness is of the disease, disease is facing ones own portrait.

N is psychopathic, in denial that it is consequence of their own doing.

Without confrontation no psychiatrist is going to pick it up, because they will be played verbally like everyone else. To gain strength through manipulation and self satisfaction of the poor little me syndrome, to seek all the blessings of their victims that they know only too well how to portray.

The disease is less likely to have been childhood punishment, in fact the opposite one gone rampant, wild and got away with it so long that there is no meaning to moral values other than self serving.

There are some causes of toxicity ask any forensic scientist they can tell you what they look for.

I believe for the most part that it is the crimal aspect, like the criminal hacker or white collar theif, on another level, laws that need to recognize the crime in its infancy before someone gets killed due to psychotic episodes of destruction. There are most likely many minor infractions, minor offences building to the point of saturation, a complete profile needs to be placed on the table.

Ellie

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2004, 01:03:09 PM »
My Nparents are very very religious. They have used their religion all of their life to defend all of their actions. This is common behavior among the fundamentalist religions.

Here's the delimia - I was raised in the same religion. I don't know if I had my eyes open to what was going on and they have always gone into it blindly, or the other way around, but I never saw or heard what they told me I was being taught in church!

I was forced to study the bible and so I've learned a lot of scripture. I have a degree from a Baptist university and had to learn even more. I've read and re-read scripture they quote in church and I do not see the twisted ways the churches translate what is written.

For example - the church and Nparents say it is a sin to let alcohol of any time touch your lips. I read where Jesus turned the water into wine. Nparents and the church say the bible didn't mean to say wine - it meant to say water. In those days, wine was all they had to drink safely. So how in the world can someone writing the scriptures say it is sinful to drink the only safe liquid around? I know that man has translated this to be what man wants to use to control other men - think Prohibition!

So, the bible is supposed to be the only true word, but the bible according to Nparents. Yet the bible says no man is to change the scrptures. So - in my little stupid - as Nparents say - head, I determine that Nparents and church have actually sinned by lying about what the bible actually says to fit their needs. They know better! You can catch them on it multiple times if you have the stamina to last.

Here's the evil part - Nparents say I am going to hell because I drink alcohol and smoke and curse. Well god cursed and Jesus cursed and drank wine and they didn't have tobacoo but I bet he would have smoked the peace pipe if they had it! So Nparents are lying and they know it but they want things their way and lie about the bible! THAT's PURE EVIL!

Also Nparents have told me I can't go to heaven because I'm not going to the church I was rasied in and told to go to. There's so many churches out there and they all say the same thing - you must beleive like we believe to enter heaven - blah blah blah. So it is very easy to recognize the evilness of their ways. They know what they are doing and saying. BUT they think they can justify it all because they actually believe, get this:

"god told them to do this...."

Sounds a little like the women going to prison for killing their children because "god told them to do it..."

The bible tells us to discern what we read and hear. We are not to take man's word at face value. We are to live by what is in our hearts that we feel is the right way. Man can lead us astray. My Nparents have led me completely away from church and anything to do with church.

I told them I read in the bible that one of the greatest sins of man is from one who would lead someone away from god. Nparents refuse to believe that they have so much evil in them that they are doing the exact opposite of what they think they are trying to accomplish.

And they say they are holier than me or anyone else that they do not like or approve of. The bible speaks of Love. There is no love in my evil Nparents heart.

According to the dictionary Evil is:
Quote


1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse>
   b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR
   b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor>
   c : DISAGREEABLE <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery>
   b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY



Too many parts of that definition defines my Nparents.

Ellie

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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2004, 01:28:04 PM »
Please forgive me for hogging this topic, but I must chime in about one more thing:

Evil ways are when a person performs actions to bring another harm to satisfy themself or for their own gain.

Ndad said he would call the child protective services and claim that I abuse my children so he could punish me for moving 3000 miles away and taking the children so far from him. He knows it's a lie but would do this for his own gain and for my suffering that would bring him enjoyment. (That was many years ago and this is no longer a fear.)
THAT's EVIL!!!!

Ndad recorded our last phone conversation to use against me so he could harm me in some way - either monetarily, or as he thought - "I could be thrown in jail for talking to him like that".  My purpose for talking with him was to gain some positive ground; his purpose for talking with me was to do me harm and gain himself pure entertainment.

THAT's EVIL!!!!

Nmom took my sister's child from her and forced an adoption because she wanted another baby and she was in menopause.

THAT's EVIL!!!!

Are all Ns evil? Probably not, but anyone who would harm another person either using physical or mental abuse, for their own gain or enjoyment is EVIL.

Anyone who is confronted with this abuse and denies it for their own protection and comfort is EVIL.

Actually looking back on my past - my Nparents were criminals; physical abuse, mental abuse, slander, extortion. How many years could they go away for?

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2004, 01:50:06 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
There is some good in every person, even those who behave in the worst ways.


There is an old aphorism that "Hitler was very kind to children and dogs." His secretary certainly liked him. I'm afraid that he wasn't good inside, nor did he have the potential for good. Some people are just evil and that's it. I also understand their internal workings and mental/emotional impairments, etc. But these internal systems are not "hiding the good" inside of them. The person is now malignant.

my opinion,

bunny

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2004, 07:11:05 PM »
I hear a latent symptom of denial in the last post. The illness is of the disease, disease is facing ones own portrait.
 

That's because s is Somebody who is in denial. Go figger. Or maybe go figure.

ListNewbie

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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2004, 08:37:50 PM »
Quote
I hear a latent symptom of denial in the last post. The illness is of the disease, disease is facing ones own portrait.


That's because s is Somebody who is in denial. Go figger. Or maybe go figure.


I think that s is making a philosophical point, more than anything. If I'm not confusing stories, s, are/were your parents religious? A religious upbringing puts a lot of stock in the term "evil" that isn't really in the dictionary definition.

Are people born evil? Or are they made that way? If they are made that way, do they fit the definition of "evil", really? Or are they just sick? Is it biology, psychology, or your soul?
From my reading of s's post, this is what's being addressed...

I subscribe to the idea that Nars are sick. That any baby if mistreated badly enough might "become" a Nar: the baby is not born that way. Even in the sickest Nar (or Antisocial personality - the true psycho), there is some glimmer of who that baby could have become. A Nar is very much like a baby: it's all about them - but even still the Nar is human. As the children of Nars, we probably see it less, since we're the ultimate supply. If our Nar parent was our three year old kid, most of their actions would be something we'd discipline, but we wouldn't think of them as evil.

However, I don't think there is a possible cure: I have a limited knowledge of brain biology, but I think that moving past "object love" (the Freudian concept, but it applies to Nars), has to happen at a given stage. If it doesn't happen, you can't go back.

flower

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2004, 09:28:31 PM »
Ellie, I appreciate your posts above - The truth in them needed said and you made your points well IMO.

Ellie

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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2004, 11:33:50 PM »
Thank you Flower. That was very sweet, and Yes, I needed to get it off my chest. I am expressing my experience with the Ns in my life. I realize we all have different experiences and different feelings and different truths. Since today is Nmoms b-day, I have very strong feelings against her treatment of me in the past year.

The next question I pose is this:
How can it be that an N parent can treat one child so maliciously and not the other children in the family. Would a disease be the reason for such differences in treatment? Can the N just have a disease against one child and not the others? Or is it simply hatred - such as in my family?

Several have spoken on the board about how they observe the N in their life treat another child, family member, neighbor, or stranger with respect, but turn on them with abuse as soon as they get the chance.

I am a mother of 3 very different personality children. I see them each very differently. I love them all the same. There are times that I simply do not like one because of their behavior, but I love them to pieces! I would never harm them for acting out bad behavior.  And I don't just dislike the behavior, I admit I am mad at one when they act out the way they do. But we are allowed to be mad at each other. I allow them to be mad at me too. That is mutual respect. They are not punished for being angry at me. They are allowed to express the anger in a healthy, controlled fashion.

I cannot fathom treating one of my children the way my parents treat me, or even the way my sisters treat me. I have respect for every human being. I was raised to hate, disrespect and judge all others. I cannot do it! I have N tendencies because of my upbringing, but I understand the difference in treatments. I could turn into a full blown N tomorrow if I could ditch my respect for others and if it would serve me well. But the truth is, I like being liked by others and being accpeted and being respected. I have been taught respect by my friends, teachers, co-workers.

I swear to all of you my Nparents can understand the difference also. I think a lot like my mother in simple life things, except my treatment of my children.

For example, my Nparents were notorious for visiting with people, treating them nice, then walking away and talking about them like they were dirt. They taught us all to do it and my sisters are still that way. I recognized that part of my personality a few years ago and determined it was a learned HABIT and I ditched it. I have always had a sort of telepathy with my mother. I can predict her actions and words. I have known when she was going to call, or whatever. I have always had some sort of connection with her mind, maybe because of so many years trying to stay up with her and not get in trouble.

I can feel what she feels for me. It is as fresh of a feeling as my children's kisses on my cheek. I know she adores my older sister, somewhat likes my younger sister because she gave birth to the child Nmom raised and loves, and absolutely hates the ground I walk on. She has put up with me, but only for what I could give her. She does not have an uncurable mental disease. She is full of hate. And she justifies her hatred by using the church and the bible.  Ndad has always hated me. I could always see it in their eyes. I could see the love in their eyes for their other daughters and for their pets. But the looks to me were empty, blank, or disgusted.

I don't know if this is the total definition of evil, but is an offensive, repulsive, morally unacceptable and wicked behavior.

Nmom once told me she could not talk to me or my family anymore because I had just told her we were dropping out of church and all church activities. She said her pastor had just preached to them to seperate themselves from non-christians and not have them in their life. She said he was talking about us and she would need to cut us out of her life until we changed our minds and went back to church but to the church she chose. That lasted 3 months. She called and acted like nothing ever happened. And she now denies saying it.

She's a control freak, full of hatred.

Is hatred Evil?

flower

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2004, 01:33:13 AM »
Happy not sending a birthday card to your mom day!  
At least I think I read you weren't going to send a card.

Moonflower

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2004, 01:42:20 AM »
...

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2004, 09:57:43 AM »
Quote from: Ellie
How can it be that an N parent can treat one child so maliciously and not the other children in the family.


As Moonflower said, a child in a family might be the designated scapegoat. The parents can't process their own problems, so they project it all into one child and blame the child. Other siblings may join in because they are terrified of becoming scapegoated themselves. It's very common (I was the 'black sheep' of my family) but when it escalates to total hatred, I think we're looking at a psychopathic parent. And psychopaths are evil.

bunny

flower

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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2004, 06:32:31 PM »
Ellie and others,

I think it is okay to call a spade a spade.

This is what I was trying to say to Ellie about the truth in her posts that needed said:

 I agree with Ellie that her parent's distortion of the Bible is evil.

Discounted Girl

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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2004, 06:39:17 PM »
I still believe this is not a disease, in a physical sense, and certainly not a mental illness. It is a bad habit played out by choice, decisively, purposely and deliberate. It's not about being ignorant or uneducated, it's about being devious, wicked, nasty and evil. Sometimes their heartless schemes are aimed at only one, sometimes they switch to another, but always and forever it is about and for the N -- the center of their universe. How else could you look in the mirror after performing hateful acts towards your child, aimed at destroying them in some way. How else could you receive joy from seeing the fruit of your womb bleed. They are just awful, more putrid than slime oozing from a garbage pit.

Remember EVIL is to LIVE in reverse -- backwards, the wrong way. That's what the devil is -- a life lived in reverse, against progress and forward movement -- opposite of advancement and growth.

What is there to forgive? Can you forgive evil? It is to be avoided and protection of your own self is mandatory. It is a matter of survival. Forgiveness is not what has to be worked on, it is getting on with your life and not dwelling on the horror we endure(d). They need someone higher up the ladder to forgive them, not us.

I have seen pure hatred burning in the NQueenmother's eyes when she looks at me. I have seen her smile cruelly when I hurt -- mostly she made sure noone else saw it. I have heard such unbelievable tales she has told about me -- complete stories with beginnings and endings that do not even resemble the truth. What horrible black vile resides in there -- it makes my skin crawl.