Gjazz

[Gaining Strength]

I'm taking your last post from POP over here because I want to talk about it.

Thanks so much for your posts Gjazz.  They really speak to me and I see powerful concepts revealed in your thoughts.

I do want to mention one thing that came to mind as a result of the quest for ME, quest for self, vs. the projected self or even the "self" of the N parent.  As PR said, it takes enormous courage to try to become your own person and really live in that skin, with all the responsibility that comes with it.  SS mentions below how other people don't understand the dynamic of living with this sort of sabotage.  I've come to realize that they probably won't ever understand it, and if you talk to them about it, their natural response is to try to help, and that means explanations or alternate theories or what have you.  When you talk about craziness, unbelievable behaviors....you sound crazy!  Think about it.  To this day, my mother's own family feels WE are unfair to HIM.  Why?  Because he lies to them.  And they believe it.  One day, when I can do so quietly, I will tell them my side.  I will not accept explanations or alternate theories, I will tell them that I will not, that I was there and they weren't, and reality is what it is.  But whenever I muster the courage to feel pity for my NF, to truly sympathize, if not empathize, with him, it's because he's gone through his entire life desperately trying to hide who he really is.  Scheming and dealing and lying and misdirecting.  That's his world.  And that's really sad.

That put's things in an very interesting perspective. 

Many Ns seem to also be pathological liars or at least excellent liars.  They lie without emotion and that seems to be far more believable than the emotional defense or emotional response to their lies.  In short - they win.

I've come to realize that they probably won't ever understand it, and if you talk to them about it, their natural response is to try to help, and that means explanations or alternate theories or what have you.  OMG this goes back to a conversation a few weeks ago about "understanding".  As a child of an N or 2 Ns being understood gets swept away in the storm of survival.  I for one have found that throughout my life I have craved being understood.  I have been desparate to be understood.  Desparation almost always leads to disastrous results.  When seeking understanding about my N parents I have been far too desparate to be able to see that a person is unable to understand and to leave it at that.  People run from desparate humans.  That has certainly led to more rejection and isolation and more need for understanding and the cycle continues - oh boy.

But whenever I muster the courage to feel pity for my NF, to truly sympathize, if not empathize, with him, it's because he's gone through his entire life desperately trying to hide who he really is.  Scheming and dealing and lying and misdirecting.  That's his world.  And that's really sad.  I do see what you are saying.  I, for one, must be very careful to separate feeling sympathy for his wretched life and sympathy for the person who meted out such horrific treatment to his own child.  I can separate the two but I must work hard to keep them separate.  I do not sympathize with that F nor M who were cruel and damaging to their own.  But on the otherhand I find that opening up the sympathy for them, particularly as innocent children who were denied the necessary love and support to become whole does help me to heal.  Delicate balance.

[gjazz]

SS:

I understand 100% your sense of desperation.  In some other thread, awhile ago, I remember recounting how I behaved when living near my NF and being under his influence.  I was nuts.  I did things I cannot believe I did: lied, manipulated, even sorta kinda "let" someone else be blamed for something I did.  And I was always so baffled at the end of the day as to why this kept happening.  Nobody could understand, or at least those in a position to were also under his thumb, and unwilling to explore the situation honestly.  It sounds to me like you have a strong handle on what you're going through.  I think Ns are almost always liars.  The truth isn't important, getting what they want at any moment is important and, as I've always felt, there's no price too high for someone else to pay to see they get it, no matter how small the thing is they desire.  I relate very much to your craving to be heard and understood and BELIEVED.  It enrages me, at times, when people, especially those who should be one my side or my mother's side, take his instead.  It makes me love them less, and I wish that weren't the case.  But it is. 

As for feeling sympathy for my NF, that took much longer than coming to terms with his destructiveness in my life.  Part of what made it possible was talking to people about his own upbringing and family history, which I think was just this side of insane.  I hate what he has done.  The question I've grappled with most in my life is: did he mean to hurt me?  Does he get joy from causing pain?  The answer, I believe, is yes, he did hurt me (and others of course) intentionally, but define "joy."  I think about what joy means to me, I've experienced that pure sensation, and I honestly doubt he's ever felt it.  So he gets something, some reward at some psychological or emotional level by humiliating and hurting people into submission, but that's what sad, pathetic cowards do.  You know you're around strong courageous people when you feel stronger and more courageous too.  Strong people never need to make others feel small.  Never.  So I look at him, consider his life--recently, he bragged about making an older lady in a supermarket cry.  An older. lady. in. a. supermarket.  He was PROUD!  That's his ACCOMPLISHMENT!  At seventy years old!  See, at this stage, with him always at arm's length, I can't help but feel a lump in my throat for the person he might have been, if he'd been stronger, or had a different childhood himself, or just been less willing to propagate the hate and bitterness through another generation.