Hopelessness

[Hopalong]

Hi English,
I remember so many years where I felt my strength drain from my legs when my NM called me...

How often do you talk to her on the phone? I am wondering how you define LC.

For me, I began to realize it was like hypnosis.

When I was anxious and weak, just letting her voice spiral into my head wasn't good for me.

I did things like learn to screen calls and talk to her less frequently and then only when I felt strong,
set a timer so calls never slid past a few minutes, and created diversions for myself so I didn't listen hard and deeply
and get "re-hynotized" by her Narrative.

She was "controlling the narration". I had to stop it.

Does any of that ring a bell with your situation?

Hops

[English]

Hopalong,

For me LC is only answering her calls only on the weekend.  Until recently I always answered the phone, but I got caller ID so I would know when she is calling.  I went to her house a week  ago for her birthday. I don't plan to see her again until Thanksgiving.  I know she'll try to manipulate me to see her sooner.  I get off the phone as quickly as I can and only answer in yes, no, OK answers.  But I feel hurt and angry everytime I talk to her or see her.  I like the timer idea.

[Hopalong]

Makes me sad to think of her infecting your weekends.
That's very precious time, if you're working during the week...

I used to do a "preemptive" call to NM. Maybe a Thursday or Friday,
just before dinner. (That worked: 5 minutes, then "Got to get dinner
now, I'll talk to you next week.")

I practiced (took me ages to learn how to do it w/o anxiety) a lot.
But over time, I got so I could be assertive. Courteous but never
abandoning myself to her control, even over the phone. So I'd call HER
maybe on a Friday early evening and say something like:

I'm calling you because I am not going to be available this weekend
for a phone conversation. Let's talk for a few minutes now. (Then she'd sulk
and jab, demand to know why, etc.) I'd have to do a lot of "Well I don't have an explanation
to give you about that but I'm glad to check in now..." and she'd sulk and jab and ask. I just kept
at it. Doing the assertiveness thing. Making calm assertive statements. Not losing my
courtesy.

The key seemed to be, repeating myself like a robot. "I don't have an explanation to
give you about that but I'm checking in now" and if I had to keep saying that exactly in the same
words, 4 or 5 times, without anger or anxiety in my voice, just neutral and courteous, then
that's what I did. I was present to her, but I would not stop being present to myself.

Eventually, she realized I had taken back control and would not allow her to demand
obedience, when it came to my time on the phone.

I started caring about myself. Noticing that, as you describe, talking to her was a sour toxic
thing I had to recover from. And refusing to allow it on weekends or late in the evening.
I would no longer give her my "downtime". (I wasn't NC, so this was my effort at LC.)

One trick I noticed--I wonder if your Nmother does this too--was that when I would say
in plain English, "Mom, I've got to go now, time to ___ [whatever, and it didn't have to be
real]" -- she would pause and then pick up her narrative as though I had not spoken
of my need to get off the phone. It was as though it hadn't happened. (Of course. It was
my need. Not hers.)

So I learned to repeat that too, just once. Even if it meant interrupting her mid-sentence.
(Hell, NMom had no sentences, only long paragraphs.) The trick that helped me was to
be Zennn-voiced: neutral, pleasant, but do it anyway. I even a couple times cut her off
in a gentle tone, repeated my "I've got to hang up now, like I said, but I'll talk to you next week
bye-Mom" (all run together) and then I WOULD HANG UP GENTLY. Not in anger, but just because I'd
said that was what I needed to do, repeated it once, and explained why I was doing it.

Sometime I would say, "Mom, I will have to be hanging up in one minute even if we're
mid-sentence, just wanted to give you a heads-up" (all calm, gentle voiced)...and then
I would DO it.

It was a lot of work but practicing assertiveness with her over phone stuff was incredibly
empowering for me.

I feel for you and I know what the Ncalls are like.

Courage!

Hops

[English]

Thanks Hop,
Great advice.  I'll have to practice this.

[English]

Hops,
What do you do when she asks "WHY?"  or" ARE YOU MAD AT ME?"  Especially the second one. I always say "no," but I am am am.  For my whole life.  I always say, "No." I don't know how else to respond.  If I said, "Yes," then it would be a really long conversation with crying and anything else she can come up with.  How does one answer the "Are you mad at me," question?

Somehow she has trained me to be afraid of why questions.  Even in my real life, I am afraid of why questions from others.  Actually, I'm afraid of all questions from everyone.  I'm not sure why.  I guess I'm afraid of their reactions? ?? Giving the CORRECT response?

Also I am going to try calling her on say, Thursday evening for the week because when I talked to her Sunday it DID ruin the whole day.  I'd like anyone's advice.  It's time to start setting up boundaries. And sticking to them.

[English]

I just started an exercise in the John Bradshaw book where you write about what you know about your parents upbringing and what you know or remember? about your infancy.  I realized there is only ONE picture of me as an infant.  It is a portrait of my parents, me, and a grandfather.  There are NO other pictures of me.  There is a photo of the table I was born on.  So right there what does that mean?  NM wanted a picture of where SHE gave birth.  There are no cute little pictures of the newborn, sleeping quietly in the crib, being held by mother, no first birthday pictures.  What does it say about the wounded NM?  Hmmm...

[Hopalong]

This is great, English. Your anticipating the general script, that is.

I believe the key answer to your question is that you have a right to decline to answer HER question.


Just because she says "WHY?" does not obligate you to open up and be vulnerable to her by answering it. (You become vulnerable if you answer Yes, because that opens the can o' worms and emotion; you are equally vulnerable if you answer No, because she has compelled a lie, which sets you psychically against yourself, perhaps making you feel weak and sick. Third option: You can decline to answer.

In childhood "courtesy training" we are taught to answer the questions (honestly) of adults, parents, teachers, and authority figures. All well and good to get schools to run efficiently, say. But as an adult child of a Nparent, you are no longer a victim, you are an ADULT, and you can make self-protective choices.

Here's some fantasy dialogue, which is just general examples of being assertive (including about whether you choose to reply to a painful probing question. You're under no obligation to participate or cooperate in causing yourself pain.)

WHY?
This is new, Mom, and it may seem strange. But I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. It's really cool outside, and I can tell fall is here...
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance].
Repeat: I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. What are you making for dinner?
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance/silent treatment]
Repeat: Well Mom, I'm fixing ____ for dinner or going ____ or planning ____ or about to ____ or have to ____. I'll talk to you again next week...Goodbye.

ARE YOU MAD AT ME? I've realized analysing my decisions isn't positive for me, so I'm not going to be doing that. But I'm glad we're checking in now. Have you been shopping? How's your hip?

The rest of your private answer is, "analysing my emotions/decisions with you isn't positive/healthy for me". But that's the thing about boundaries. There is no requirement that you share your thoughts with her. If she guesses this, she guesses it.

Your assertiveness and boundary-setting don't have to be secret or slickly done to give you strength.

They just have to be practiced.

It'll be awkward as hell for a while. Maybe a long while. But you really can assert your right to:

talk
not talk
set a time limit
answer a question
NOT answer a question
accept the subject/s she introduces
decline to accept the subject/s she introduces
introduce your own subject
change your mind
continue the conversation
end the conversation
calmly disconnect even if she's mid-sentence

(I may have overdone it, but my D feels completely entitled to not answer my questions. She'll say, if I ask something that causes her discomfort, "I don't have anything more I want to say about that" or "I don't want to talk about that with you now" and I've learned to say, Okay. And respect it. And although in earlier years I'd feel all hurt, etc., I don't any more. I feel...clear. Boundaries are okay with me when someone else sets them too.) She trained me!

In terms of me setting such conversational boundaries with Nmother, the beauty was, as I practiced, she didn't magically become a nonN. But she did gradually (if grudgingly or at times histrionically) begin to respect my boundaries. That's not respect as in, I agree with your reasoning, that's respect as in, I'd better go along with this because that's just the way it is now.

hope some of that helps,

Hops

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Somehow, this thread conjured up the inimitable Forrest Gump phrase, said in his slow Alabama accent ... "... and that's all I have to say about that ..."

English, can you turn the question back onto her, and ask, "Why do you ask that? What makes you think I'm mad at you?" Let her do the explaining. Then hopefully you can use her answer to set your boundaries! If she says, "Well, you wouldn't tell me about XYZ," you could say, "I'm not ready to discuss that ..." or some other non-committal answer.  I just figure if somebody has enough gall to act badly and then challenge us to defend our fully justifiable feelings about their behavior, they can darn well be the ones to justify themselves!

Also, somewhere else on this forum somebody noted that their feelings seemed to be DELAYED. I notice this a lot. When a N in my life is offensive, at first I won't feel anything, but later I will get angry. I don't know what other people think about my tactics --- but when I realize that the N has been offensive, even though it was yesterday or whenever, I have begun to confront them. I will call them back, or e mail them back, or whatever --- whenever it hits me how offensive they have been. I guess this only works with certain Ns, not everybody. But the Ns in my life can't handle being confronted. Usually there is not a showdown or anything because when I confront THEM (as opposed to them being on the offensive), they are totally chicken. Of course, then they get subversive and stab me in the back in a sneaky way, but that's a whole other post!

I also found out something kind of funny, in this process of confronting Ns about their behavior. My mother got sarcastic with me, and said very nastily, "Well! I guess I'll have to be VERY CAREFUL in what I say to my own daughter from now on!" To which I very sweetly replied, "Thank you, Mom, I really appreciate you doing that." She had no idea what to say to that.

[English]

Hey Hops, I'm going to practice this. Thank you, thank you for your suggestions.
 

"Just because she says "WHY?" does not obligate you to open up and be vulnerable to her by answering it. (You become vulnerable if you answer Yes, because that opens the can o' worms and emotion; you are equally vulnerable if you answer No, because she has compelled a lie, which sets you psychically against yourself, perhaps making you feel weak and sick. Third option: You can decline to answer.

In childhood "courtesy training" we are taught to answer the questions (honestly) of adults, parents, teachers, and authority figures. All well and good to get schools to run efficiently, say. But as an adult child of a Nparent, you are no longer a victim, you are an ADULT, and you can make self-protective choices.

Here's some fantasy dialogue, which is just general examples of being assertive (including about whether you choose to reply to a painful probing question. You're under no obligation to participate or cooperate in causing yourself pain.)

WHY?
This is new, Mom, and it may seem strange. But I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. It's really cool outside, and I can tell fall is here...
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance].
Repeat: I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. What are you making for dinner?
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance/silent treatment]
Repeat: Well Mom, I'm fixing ____ for dinner or going ____ or planning ____ or about to ____ or have to ____. I'll talk to you again next week...Goodbye.

ARE YOU MAD AT ME? I've realized analysing my decisions isn't positive for me, so I'm not going to be doing that. But I'm glad we're checking in now. Have you been shopping? How's your hip?

The rest of your private answer is, "analysing my emotions/decisions with you isn't positive/healthy for me". But that's the thing about boundaries. There is no requirement that you share your thoughts with her. If she guesses this, she guesses it. "

Thanks, I really needed to know what I "can and can't" do.  From your list I can tell I don't know how to use boundaries.  I always feel like I HAVe  to answer a question, discuss the subject she introduces, answer WHY questions.  I think I'll go with my gut and if it feels uncomfortable, then don't discuss it. Unless it's in a required situation llike Boss-Employee I will give myself permission to not answer questions or discuss feelings.

It's like in my mind; I don't have any rights, but everyone else does.I  The whole world has rights, but I must be subserviant.

Heart of Pilgrimage,
I thought I was the only one who had delayed feelings.  It's like they slowly, slowly start to bubble up; then they come up faster; finally they rush up as if fromthe middle of nowhere.

Regarding assertiveness,
One thing I have recently been successful at is telling her "No" without an explanation.  Of course she comes back with, "Are you mad at me?"  Then I say no.  that part I have to work on.  You both have given me great advice and a lot to think about.

P.S.  I really have to figure out how to quote people.