Author Topic: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising  (Read 2007 times)

lighter

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What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« on: September 11, 2009, 01:31:26 PM »

Amber: 

Just ask if you want this topic removed. 

I felt you distilled, some very difficult concepts, into a very helpful thread of it's own.

Mo2



PhoenixRising
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    Re: Struggling with loathing
« Reply #18 on: Today at 11:59:10 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hops, I'm finally out from under paperwork (mortgage app - ah, the agony of such DETAIL, right??)

This is such an excellent topic; it gets to the point of something I've been trying to articulate for while, for myself. Like you, I can go off for hours (well, more like days) ruminating and going over & over things I feel, related to situations and the Ns (or other wackos) in them. These people are unfortunately a fact of life, I think. And I've heard there are theories about Nism becoming more prevalent in society lately (maybe it's just awareness of it).

One thing I've caught myself doing in my obsessive thoughts is analyzing the N to death... going over & over the "he said/she said"...trying to find some logic, some magic solution... fantasying about "having the floor" long enough to say my piece about it all without any excuses/justifications from the party involved. In other words, I'm making my thoughts & feelings all about the N. You're absolutely right, that this is unpleasant and toxic - I think, it's almost a secondary wounding that we do to ourselves. I think it's high time I shifted my focus away from them.

But even worse, if "it's all about the N" in our thoughts/feelings... well, isn't that the result they want? We already know that there is no way to change them. Even Blago - the ex-Mayor of Chicago - wasn't stopped by removing him from office. He's published a book blaming lots of others for his actions. And doesn't it take up so much space/time in our lives ruminating on these people... that we often forget that we can change... and in doing so, make ourselves safe and more comfortable when we must interact with these kinds of people? That's my restatement of your original question, I think.

Your question completely "rang my chimes" because I've been trying to identify and define the same thing for myself. One thing I was reminded of this morning is: take care of myself FIRST. If I'm putting myself first, in my thoughts/feelings, then I get the opportunity of choosing - in the moment - of whether I want to focus so much of "me" on an N. (that's a no-brainer, huh?) I've also heard you refer to N-spots... and if you don't mind unsolicited feedback, I don't think there's an N-bone anywhere in your body!

That fear of being Nish... is part of the illusion Ns use to manipulate us, I think. I see it happening subtly over time, that like genetics, we fear that simply by osmosis we - our SELVES - can't help but acquire the same traits. Not only is that unacceptable, in a self-reflection, but it's also reinforced by Ns... so that any normal "take care of myself first" thoughts, feelings & actions are reprimanded, punished... reinforcing the idea, that somehow, some part of our selves is - or might be - just like them. And in reality, yes - if we truly stand up for ourselves and demand that we be treated fairly - well, it's dangerous. Just like it was for my subordinate and my old Nboss.

So, there are two "problems" here. Avoiding the secondary wounding of thinking/feeling "all about them" and also the fear that if we do take care of ourselves first - something bad will happen. THAT is a rock & hard place... until we change ourselves. I can deliberately not spend time thinking about my brother, thinking of ways to "fix" him or explain my reality to him and hope that he cares or understands. Yes, it means he will continue to attack me for things he did not do and could have; simply because I did engage and he didn't. Until - or even if - he ever understands that he doesn't get to make the rules about other people's behavior and reality... I can't - I really am responsible for - not letting him stop me from doing what it is, that needs doing... or saying.

I'm really not afraid of him getting angry with me or attacking me. That's just the "old reflex" that prompts me to fight back. I can choose to not take his words personally, as if they were authentic feedback, because what he's doing is projecting blame. And the other people involved are well aware of this. I really don't have fight hand to hand with him. I can simply disregard his criticism and unreasonable demands. I don't have to explain the "rules" in the business world to him... he's made it very clear that he doesn't want to be engaged in the process, the way it's "played". And this time, he doesn't make the rules. Not my problem that he doesn't like them, either. This world doesn't revolve around him and he doesn't control it. OH... and I don't either; I'm merely responding when prompted for feedback or decisions. I don't need to consult him to have an opinion and I don't have to know what he thinks - to speak myself. I'm not at all worried about "how this looks" to others, because this is the way things are done in reality.

I can do that, because neither of us has a "power" advantage over the other. An Nboss situation does put one at a disadvantage, being dependent on the income and the "good graces" of someone we would much rather not have a thing to do with. So, it's important to pin him down on what he wants - preferably in writing, like an email. That way, when he denies he said it - you can show him proof. It's a lot of extra work for you... and it's not a 100% guarantee, either. Always ask for clarification from him - he'll like this - by restating what you think he said. He's not interested in your opinion, most of the time - and if he does ask, it helps to stay as matter of fact, as possible. If he tries to blame you for "sins of omission"... you can always remind him you weren't asked; you were told what he wanted (and the proof in writing is useful here).

Finding ways to limit the personal interactions is important when someone gives you the creeps, too. It sounds like you don't have a lot of ways to insure your physical area is N-free...
... so sensory stuff can help; soft relaxing music (Pandora is a good computer choice), scents, talismans - like emotional "worry beads" (I kept sea shells for that purpose in the office)... even white-noise machines (I liked ocean waves)... are non-threatening, non-triggering ways for you to define your "safe zone" and purify it of the noxious intruder. These things also helped me re-center myself after having to interact with Nboss; re-establish my own equilibrium, emotionally. Even just making a cup of tea would often be enough to brush the emotional debris off... for me to go on. And no: smoking never worked as well, because that was an "invitation" for me to start ruminating - rewounding myself. Yet it was still a reflex...

and what I needed to change, needed to learn was how to reaffirm myself, validate for myself that he was crazy, and let it go - quickly - instead. And just "do" without caring about right/wrong, consequences (if he didn't ask my opinion), or even if it made sense. That was the absolute hardest thing for those of us in the departmental support group: learning to not care, because we were all programmed to do the best possible job, anticipate negative consequences, and avoid them. But it was the only way we found that we could survive in that situation; if we cared - we hurt about things it wasn't in our power to change.

It is de-humanizing, granted. And that's why the "take care of yourself first" mantra was so popular. We truly hated being in that position. We took turns being outraged that our only choice was to not care - and trying to talk each other down off those ledges until one by one, people found a way to leave.

The only real regret I have is that I covered his ass, so long - saved him from his own incompetence, arrogance and stupidity over & over. And my subordinate's approach - that of being a "Cassandra" and pointing out the errors and problems and injustices all coming from him - is what really got her fired; everyone wants to pretend that the "Emporer has clothes"... and because she was RIGHT and cared enough to say it loudly & repeatedly... she was a threat to the illusion... and that would've made a lot of other people look bad, too.


Gosh, I hope in all that personal "processing" there's something you can use, Hops! I was in that job for 9 long years. Way too long.
 
 
 

sKePTiKal

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 01:43:51 PM »
Hey Mo2... go for it! I've been thinking about this a long time. It was Hops' question about how to protect herself and deal with Nboss that brought it back to me - that and realizing that I needed something similar with my brother.... realizing that we can't just have all the N & wackos beamed to another universe....

in practical terms, we need how-tos for co-existing with "the others", when we've made a conscious choice to do so - or when there is no other choice, for the immediate future.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 01:49:48 PM »
Thank you, Amber: )

You've done some amazing work, and I appreciate your sharing: )

Mo2

sKePTiKal

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 02:33:39 PM »
eh! I don't know about the amazing work... I AM able to look at myself, some. Now, if I would just really follow through on what I see... myself! It's still quite an effort - but worthwhile, I think.

I react - those reflexes respond - faster than even a thought or breath can save me from my own emotions & lizard brain, sometimes. But I am finally learning that I don't have to "beat myself up" for having that response: it's legacy "neuro-programming" and I have to accept that and just keep trying to do something different, until it becomes a "habit".

OH... and a test for N-spots: if you can truly say or feel you're sorry for something - being wrong, making assumptions/presumptions about others, and you don't expect the universe to revolve around you or conform to you... no N there. Just human "self-interest"... and that's a good thing, 'coz it follows the mantra of: take care of yourself first.

Maybe the mantra should be: do no harm to yourself????
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 05:47:03 PM »

Maybe the mantra should be: do no harm to yourself????




I like that mantra.

I also like......

do unto yourself, as you would do unto others.

So many people are kind to everyone else, and forget themselves.

Can anyone else think of appropriate mantras?

Mo2

sKePTiKal

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 05:44:42 AM »
Wisdom on this topic from Izzy:

Quote
To keep reliving the wrongs done is to keep oneself from growing beyond their 'torture, lies and crazy-making''.

Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 08:56:57 AM »
What an interesting way of putting it:

Izzy wrote:

To keep reliving the wrongs done, is to keep oneself from growing beyond their 'torture, lies and crazy-making."

I think processing the wrongs requires some compulsive rumination.

On the other hand, it's like a little dog rolling around in it's own poopie.

Eventually, we have to get up, clean ourselves off and go about other business, bc it's time.

Because there's a time and a place for everything, including life after the N's, and other wackos.

Mo2


teartracks

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 03:41:59 PM »


Since what I wrote here didn't qualify as a mantra, I moved it to a new thread.

Hope that's OK, Iz...

tt
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 04:21:29 PM by teartracks »

Hopalong

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 04:58:56 PM »
Reality is my friend.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 05:55:45 PM »
Portia, Yes, dogs do that; there's nothing a dog likes as much as a really nasty stinky mess. We used to read "Hank the Cowdog" books with our children --- Hank the Cowdog loooves to roll in the grass around the septic tank.

Sorry, I don't have anything really useful to report ... except I have noticed that people have been really hurt often have a real affinity with animals ... an animal is such a gift ... they can't talk, but they can listen!

lighter

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 11:58:34 PM »
Yep, Portia.

Kids roll around in their poopie too.


Some kids more than others.

I'm told my sibling and I emptied our diapers, on one occassion, and painted walls and selves: O

Bleck.

::shrug::

These things, they happen.

Mo2

sKePTiKal

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 06:38:37 AM »
I need some kind of flashing neon post-it note... or electric shock collar... or something...
to keep reminding myself of the basic fact in all this topic. It is SOOOOO easy... to get mentally back into the same old groove... of putting all the focus of mental/emotional time & energy into going back over what I've already processed into compost. The power of habit... the "comfort zone" of the familiar.

At the same time, consciously "putting it down & walking away" brings up the other reflex "consequences"... p/m-anic "busyness", escapism, feeling "bad" (pick your poison: guilt, anger, frustration) because I'm NOT devoting my every waking breath to "figuring out the N's"... I'm not wasting my self by making them the "center" of my universe.

But this time is a little different; when I find myself returning to rumination... there is a small post-it written in pencil in my mind that reads "it ain't worth it"... and I do something else; find something else to think about.... and keep trudging on.

It amazing how many times a day it comes up.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

CB123

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 07:08:55 AM »
Phoenix,

I cant tell you how many times I have read your post that initiated this thread.  Every paragraph contains something that I needed to have shouted at me once again. 

I really, really, really am encouraged by how you've grown and healed since you have been here.  We have a lot of new people on the board right now, and I think that they would get such a boost to read your earlier posts and your early struggles and watch how you have worked your way out of it. 

One of the things you said was about dealing with N's without the power advantage.  This is what I am really thinking about now.  It is much easier for me to deal with someone unreasonable (N or not), if I "equalize the playing field", or else stop and recognize that it already is.  It is very easy for me to slip into the powerless mode--completely on my own.  Of course, any N within range will pick up on that--but many times, I am the one who puts myself there.  Simply refuting that in my own head, changes everything.

I remember the point in my marriage when, after ANOTHER pointless interaction, I was sincerely frustrated with the time it had taken from other things I wanted to be doing  It shifted from a personal wound to impatience over how it was interupting my life.  Gradually, I started changing the way I interacted with him simply because I had other things I wanted to do!

Thanks again, Phonex.

Cb
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

sKePTiKal

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Re: What helps: Dealing with N's (and other wackos) by PhoenixRising
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 07:48:39 AM »
You're welcome CB - and it's good to hear from you!

Ya know, about maybe retelling my story and how I got "here"... (which is just temporary; another stop along the way...) - I don't think I can, unless I pull out all the journals and literally copy some of the emotional dreck and poison I had to "vomit" to be able to really SEE it. Just like Mo2's image of rolling in doggie-doo... it would be difficult for me to do, right now. I simply can't face it right now.... not again. Where I am now, feels a lot better.

It's too easy for me to get caught into "making it all about the N" again... still. That risk just isn't on my to-do list these days. Maybe later... right now it's "my turn" to star in my own life.

The other thing about doing this, is something that just dropped out of my mouth, the last time I saw my T.  I was heavy into the Left - Right brain info at the time, and overlaying my experience on that context... and making new connections; getting some new insights... what my mouth said, was...

"so... this can just happen organically, huh? No plan... no how-to... no "prescription"... no "timeline" -  just sort of live it"? And she agreed that would be the best. With organic processes... sometimes the origins and the historical processes that make something what they are now, are literally transformed into something else... until it's as if the real "origin" ceases to have existed. The fossils of emotional wounds crumble into dust. The mummified false or past "selves" disintegrate... slowly at first, then more quickly... when exposed to light, air, rain & snow and "now"... and become "food" for something new to grow.

I'm a lot more interested in what that "something new" might turn out to be!
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.