Thank you mother.

[Portia]

Hiya Cj,  it’s very good to see and read your post above. It sounds like you’re doing so well! I’m glad, I really am.  

Can I tell you how the ‘triangulating’ happened in our house? Mother made sure she was always the victim and in a way, I think that meant she was mostly in control. Although she would tell you that my step-dad was totally in control of her. And mostly I believed that. I’ve only just worked out how this might have been how things really were in our house, and I don’t know if it’s true. I guess I can only find a way to explain why I felt like I did. And to know it wasn’t my fault. Until now I sort of did believe it was my fault. I hope you don’t mind me rambling here.  I’ll take a chance and ramble anyway.

How did she get to be the victim? To explain her ‘depressions’ to step-dad, she would say it was my fault, that she was worried by me, upset with me, whatever. But not unkindly, she’d do it out of ‘love’ for me no doubt, in her mind. So step-dad would blame me for her state of mind. She would take me aside and tell me how they argued about me, about how to raise me, rules and so on, about how step-dad wanted to be more disciplined but she ‘stuck up’ for me, she wanted me to have freedom (the freedom she didn’t have with him? Who knows).

So to me, she was the good guy and step-dad was the bad guy. On the surface. But kids know when something isn’t true don’t they? It didn’t feel like she gave a toss about me and her actions didn’t show that she cared. But then she also let me know how depressed she was, how step-dad controlled her, so I guess I had to sympathise, empathise even, share her emotional problems. Then whenever I tried to ask for something for myself, like why aren’t we ‘normal’, why don’t we do things like other families (like have holidays, go for picnics, go for drives, whatever) I was told by him I was trying to upset her; and she would tell me I was trying to get between them. What can a kid do? It wasn’t my fault. It wasn’t your fault either.   If babies cry, it’s because they need something. They can’t help it, it’s natural, normal. I get told I cried a lot too. Like it was my fault, like I chose to cry. What nonsense eh?

I was lucky, I also saw my real dad. She was also a victim there: she made him out to be another scourge of her life. Maybe he was, but she didn’t have to say unkind things about him to me.

I wasn’t respected at home either. I was like a lodger. As for your mother getting a place of her own when you were a baby, you could ask her why she didn’t. It could be money reasons. About you wearing a cross (I used to do that too, as fashion): why didn’t your mother get involved in the conversation (confrontation)? I don’t know.  But it must have felt horrible to you, perhaps like she was either siding with him, or just ignoring the whole thing, like you didn’t matter? And you do matter. Can I tell you that? You matter as much as anyone else.

CJ when you said about your granddad depending on your mother and yet not, I thought how confusing and frustrating this could be. I was constantly asking myself, why does she stay with him? Does it matter to me now? It matters to me because I’m trying to work out where I fitted in to the weird, sad family dynamics and how that has affected me, in what I do today, even though I haven’t lived with them for many years. I was blamed, shamed and used by my mother. I wasn’t allowed to be a child. I wasn’t allowed to be a separate person. Even now she acts as though we have some special connection. And frankly, if we do, it’s some basic biological thing. It’s not out of thoughtful, considerate human love. It’s not her fault either. But that doesn’t lessen the impact it had on me.

When your mother asked ‘why?’ after your questioning, what did you say? And *how* did she ask you ‘why’. Maybe she was just curious as to why you were asking: maybe there was no ulterior motive, she might have just been interested in you, yes you,  for a change? I don’t know, I wasn’t there. But I wondered if maybe this was just an innocent question. I know I’ve been so screwed up that I see ‘motives’ everywhere sometimes, even ‘do you want a cup of tea?’ can seem demanding or something.  Sad I know.

I don’t know if any of my thoughts help you CJ. I wanted to reply because so many of the feelings and experiences in your post are similar to mine and I wanted you to know you’re not alone by any means. love, P

[Cj]

Thanks for the reply Portia. I'll get a proper reply up soon, after I've had a proper read.

Cj

[Cj]

Hi Portia,

Thanks for the reply, and sorry I took so long replying. Wow, that certainly sounds like a complex affair. Very confusing. I still feel quite early on in working the 'dynamics' out in my situation, I mean its only recently I've even started thinking about them.
One thing I was thinking about though is the step dad thing, I know it doesn't really address directly what your talking about here (maybe it does), but I never had a step-dad. I sometimes wonder how it would have been if I had. I always remember my mother telling me when I was playing up/misbehaving 'You wouldn't be so out of line if someone like (enter her current boyfriend) was around, thats for sure!' (Unfortunately her current boyfriend was married and it was never gonna happen (but thats another story...)). The idea in itself of having a step dad stepin sounds a bit screwed, especially if you don't get on with them and/or this person with no real connection is raising you (anyway they see fit), but its kinda accepted and so common isn't it? Sorry I'm stating the obvious here. How did you get on with him?
You said kids know when somethings not right. Did you know something wasn't right at that time? Or did it occur later. True kids know, but I guess they also learn to 'not know' or supress things?

I don't feel I'm at a stage where I can ask the things you mention, about the past, like why we lived in that situation, despite my 'progress'. You see to my mother questions like those, have always been viewed as 'a threat' I think, or thats how she takes them. To be honest those things are more likely to come out in anger these days lol, but at least I'll feel more focus, calm and justified. Maybe.
I thought about asking my mother why she didn't want thing to 'work out' between her and my dad. (She told me a story about how he came to the hospital, and 'wanted things to work out 'we can make it work etc', but she 'wasn't having it' and said 'no'') Sometimes I wonder what the fuck was so bad about this man, (I really don't think there was) and how much influence my grandfather/family had on this.
But you know what, it angered me, its making me feel blocked, because I know if I did ask my mother she would deny telling me that (above) when I was a child. And that fills me with fucking frustration when she does that. I'd just feel my head being stretched in two again in that case, and feel she was tearing me apart. Truth/Untruth. Being able to stick to my guns, and not doubt what I heard (which I guess is what is at play). Crazy making indeed. So, no, I won't be bringing that up for a while, 'till I can deal with it better, and have more strength.

Yes, I know what you mean about seeing motives behind everything:S, coming and going with people. I would say her reaction was puzzled/wary/quiet surprise. But they very why is annoying in itself I feel. She would always say that sort of 'whats brought that on?' (me wanting to know). And to me that says 'Everythings fine as it is (to her) no need to talk about this/that'. As if wanting to know is an inconvenience, but maybe thats me seeing motives...

Cj xx  

Hiya Cj,  it’s very good to see and read your post above. It sounds like you’re doing so well! I’m glad, I really am.  

Can I tell you how the ‘triangulating’ happened in our house? Mother made sure she was always the victim and in a way, I think that meant she was mostly in control. Although she would tell you that my step-dad was totally in control of her. And mostly I believed that. I’ve only just worked out how this might have been how things really were in our house, and I don’t know if it’s true. I guess I can only find a way to explain why I felt like I did. And to know it wasn’t my fault. Until now I sort of did believe it was my fault. I hope you don’t mind me rambling here.  I’ll take a chance and ramble anyway.

How did she get to be the victim? To explain her ‘depressions’ to step-dad, she would say it was my fault, that she was worried by me, upset with me, whatever. But not unkindly, she’d do it out of ‘love’ for me no doubt, in her mind. So step-dad would blame me for her state of mind. She would take me aside and tell me how they argued about me, about how to raise me, rules and so on, about how step-dad wanted to be more disciplined but she ‘stuck up’ for me, she wanted me to have freedom (the freedom she didn’t have with him? Who knows).

So to me, she was the good guy and step-dad was the bad guy. On the surface. But kids know when something isn’t true don’t they? It didn’t feel like she gave a toss about me and her actions didn’t show that she cared. But then she also let me know how depressed she was, how step-dad controlled her, so I guess I had to sympathise, empathise even, share her emotional problems. Then whenever I tried to ask for something for myself, like why aren’t we ‘normal’, why don’t we do things like other families (like have holidays, go for picnics, go for drives, whatever) I was told by him I was trying to upset her; and she would tell me I was trying to get between them. What can a kid do? It wasn’t my fault. It wasn’t your fault either.   If babies cry, it’s because they need something. They can’t help it, it’s natural, normal. I get told I cried a lot too. Like it was my fault, like I chose to cry. What nonsense eh?

I was lucky, I also saw my real dad. She was also a victim there: she made him out to be another scourge of her life. Maybe he was, but she didn’t have to say unkind things about him to me.

I wasn’t respected at home either. I was like a lodger. As for your mother getting a place of her own when you were a baby, you could ask her why she didn’t. It could be money reasons. About you wearing a cross (I used to do that too, as fashion): why didn’t your mother get involved in the conversation (confrontation)? I don’t know.  But it must have felt horrible to you, perhaps like she was either siding with him, or just ignoring the whole thing, like you didn’t matter? And you do matter. Can I tell you that? You matter as much as anyone else.

CJ when you said about your granddad depending on your mother and yet not, I thought how confusing and frustrating this could be. I was constantly asking myself, why does she stay with him? Does it matter to me now? It matters to me because I’m trying to work out where I fitted in to the weird, sad family dynamics and how that has affected me, in what I do today, even though I haven’t lived with them for many years. I was blamed, shamed and used by my mother. I wasn’t allowed to be a child. I wasn’t allowed to be a separate person. Even now she acts as though we have some special connection. And frankly, if we do, it’s some basic biological thing. It’s not out of thoughtful, considerate human love. It’s not her fault either. But that doesn’t lessen the impact it had on me.

When your mother asked ‘why?’ after your questioning, what did you say? And *how* did she ask you ‘why’. Maybe she was just curious as to why you were asking: maybe there was no ulterior motive, she might have just been interested in you, yes you,  for a change? I don’t know, I wasn’t there. But I wondered if maybe this was just an innocent question. I know I’ve been so screwed up that I see ‘motives’ everywhere sometimes, even ‘do you want a cup of tea?’ can seem demanding or something.  Sad I know.

I don’t know if any of my thoughts help you CJ. I wanted to reply because so many of the feelings and experiences in your post are similar to mine and I wanted you to know you’re not alone by any means. love, P

[Portia]

CJ I was just about to go and I saw your post above, so a quick reply from me, I'll come back and read again though:

I got on sometimes with step-dad but he was a control-freak. Not good. And yes, having an outsider move in to the father role was crap (note! when that person is without any love or compassion etc. Some stepdads are great, but not mine), it doesn't work. He already had children of his own too (they stayed with their mother). Gave them as much love and attention as he gave me (sad for them). Yeah, it wasn't good for me.

She would always say that sort of 'whats brought that on?' (me wanting to know). And to me that says 'Everythings fine as it is (to her) no need to talk about this/that'. As if wanting to know is an inconvenience,

Oh I recognise this! Yep, it's like: what's wrong with you, asking questions? Why do you want to know? (The sub-text being: you're wrong/bad/stupid/different/annoying/etc). And we were both just ordinary, curious children. That's what children do - ask lots of questions! That's what can make us lose our voices, being 'told' asking questions is wrong. So selfish of them. Heck I understand CJ, now I know why her "why?" would have got to you. The answer, if I ever had the courage to use it, might be "WHY NOT?"  (((CJ))) bye for now, P

[Portia]

Hiya CJ, a few more thoughts.

'You wouldn't be so out of line if someone like (enter her current boyfriend) was around, thats for sure!'

 It’s classic how she totally refuses to take any responsibility herself. The answer in my mind to her comment above is “presumably that’s because he would take an interest in the person I am and encourage me to be the person that I want to be?” ha ha ha! I know that’s not what she meant. But in saying that above, she washes her hands of you doesn’t she? Doesn’t think she has any responsibility for the way you are. Or maybe she does and this is her way of shifting the shame/blame. It seems to me that she is a typical ‘all men are to blame’ woman, seriously unhappy.   Sorry CJ.

She told me a story about how he came to the hospital, and 'wanted things to work out 'we can make it work etc', but she 'wasn't having it' and said 'no'')

 Yeah, one day maybe you will ask why not. But you’ll need to be so strong and calm! Because I guess she won’t want to tell you the whole story. And to get to her version of what happened, I’d guess you’d need to keep asking questions, relentlessly, even if she became upset, angry etc. Could you do that and keep calm, keep prodding away for her version of reality? It is tough. I’ve only scratched the surface. However, when I have asked what I have thought are upsetting questions, I’ve been amazed to find that she doesn’t get upset at all! Especially if I make it clear that I want to know for curiosity’s sake, and not to blame her, or blame anyone, just to know what happened. Tricky though.

'whats brought that on?'

I just want to come back to this phrase. I was subjected to exactly the same question! I asked my H if he’s ever heard it – no. It’s so aggressive but passive too. So accusing, as if asking a question is like an illness. And also, it implies that we can’t think for ourselves!  It’s like saying: who’s given you that idea? (because we can’t possibly have our own ideas can we?). It’s a very nasty little phrase. I want to answer: “my brain brought it on. I can think. Surprise,   surprise!”. Ahhhhhh. I guess the phrase is indicative of their fear – attack being the best form of defence and so on. Sad eh? Thanks for reminding me of this belittling and crazy-making phrase. I feel like I’ve exorcised it now!   (((CJ))) P

[Cj]

Thank you for your reply Portia.

I asked my mother about my dad tonight as a matter of fact (date of my last post). I was interested in her reponse (regarding my question as to  whether he had ever made any attempt to see me (which I asked)). She replied he hadn't, not once, and  ' I would have told you if he had tried to see you. God, I wouldn't keep something like that from you *****'.
Now, maybe I'm searching for hidden meanings or being super wary, but a way of interpreting that is that is its saying 'it is however, ok (for me) to keep some things from you. Does that sound paranoid? Not really...

When I brought up the fact she told me as a kid that 'he wanted it to work' and asked why it didn't, she told me thats 'not what (she) meant.'   , and that 'he wasn't commited, nor wanted to be tied down'.    If she made that decision herself, she could at least have the balls to say. He still only stayed ten minutes away, so to go from that, to never wanting to see me seems contradictory. One minute he 'wanted it to work', the next 'he wanted to at least see you at the hospital'. I'll get to the bottom of it eventually. Whether it really matters NOW (or really ever did) is irrelevant. Knowing I am getting closer to being able to take things up with her, and stand my ground, is whats important.

Anyway, I'll get back to this when I have more time.

[Portia]

Hiya CJ, you sound pretty cool to me.  Hey,

God, I wouldn't keep something like that from you

Maybe it’s genuine. Maybe it’s about what she thinks you might think of her? (“How could you think I would keep something like that from you? I’m not that bad a person. Do you think I would be that ‘bad’ to you?”) Either way, she has some morality doesn’t she? And the whole exchange sounds like a reasonable, adult conversation. Way to go CJ, I’m a little envious!

Whether it really matters NOW (or really ever did) is irrelevant.

Well, we do have a need to know our roots. I wonder if somehow she’s ashamed of something between her and him. I don’t know. It’s about their relationship. She’s hiding something, maybe from herself. It’s her stuff though.

Knowing I am getting closer to being able to take things up with her, and stand my ground, is whats important.

Oh you touched my nerve there! I’m still scared. Scared of ‘hurting’ her and therefore myself. I’ve stopped communicating with mine, and I don’t know if it’s the answer for me. Maybe I’ll get strong enough to stand my ground. Maybe there’s no point (for her....but for me?) in doing that with mine. Work in progress.

Very good to hear how you’re doing CJ. Thought-provoking too... Thank you for your post. Best wishes  P

[Cj]

Hi Portia, hope your doing ok.  

I think its more how she feels about herself probably, and in turn *thinks* I feel about her. True, lack of communication is probably my failing equally, or not wanting to, as well. Maybe I need to start doing so, maybe I'll even want to as time goes on.
We actually get on on not bad atm, but that doesn't mean were actually *close* if you get my drift. And I still haven't fully digested my past, and feelings towards her in that respect. Nowhere near it.
You mentioned being 'used' by your mother, and that got me thinking about whether I was 'used'. At times I'd be company for her. I sometimes think I took the place of a surrogate friend a lot of the time. I remember one time I was around 19 and we went to the cinema, or she'd want to meet me for pizza ever thursday after I'd finished work. I just clicked that this only happened for around a year or so. I'm now thinking 'why then?'. I mean there was no sudden 'drifting apart' (because it was questionable whether we were that 'close' anyway, aside from her unspoken conviction/ 'this is how it is' of 'we're close, aren't we son?'. You know the one.... When I was a kid also maybe.
So I'm thinking convenience.
I mean jesus.....I LIVED with the woman lol, it's not like I get a call for her: 'hey son, we don't see each other much atm, fancy meeting up for lunch, catch up?' you know?. I mean, what ****ing 19 yr old guy goes to the cinema with his mother on a thursday night, y'know? LOL. I just went along with it. Probably scared of saying no. (Scared of hurting her). I mean I don't think any of it was her being interested in me as a person,(maybe not even at all), anything past that sort of act. When I think about it, its amazing how little interest she actually showed. And I didn't even realise....
A lot or most of her 'real' friendships always went wrong. I remember one time when I was a little younger I said to her I was unhappy (didn't say I was, because of course I wasn't really good at 'I' s, and expressing 'my' feelings, which were vague, even in the capacity they were felt) because I didn't have many friends, causing her to march (away, a common tactic when she wants to avoid something) up the stairs in anger asking 'Am I not your friend????'. Yeh, not healthy....
I am still uneasy. Its strange and new talking to her as-an actual-person, and realising how awkward it is. Still learning. I spoke to her the other day like an actual person, and it left her uneasy, I could sense her awkwarness. But I can't tell yet whats at play. Is she just not interested at me when I'm being a person, and have more of a sense of myself, or does it make her uncomfortable, and thus I should be compassionate, if anything? Maybe she was just shocked. I often wonder if me 'becoming' will make her re-evaluate herself., which she obviously hasn't had to do, me being the way I've always been, (and rather conveniently to (?)).
I'm kinda rabbiting, and this is all about me, :S, but wanted to get back to the board before I drift away again for a year.

Best wishes Cj

Hiya CJ, you sound pretty cool to me. Hey,

God, I wouldn't keep something like that from you

Maybe it’s genuine. Maybe it’s about what she thinks you might think of her? (“How could you think I would keep something like that from you? I’m not that bad a person. Do you think I would be that ‘bad’ to you?”) Either way, she has some morality doesn’t she? And the whole exchange sounds like a reasonable, adult conversation. Way to go CJ, I’m a little envious!

Whether it really matters NOW (or really ever did) is irrelevant.

Well, we do have a need to know our roots. I wonder if somehow she’s ashamed of something between her and him. I don’t know. It’s about their relationship. She’s hiding something, maybe from herself. It’s her stuff though.

Knowing I am getting closer to being able to take things up with her, and stand my ground, is whats important.

Oh you touched my nerve there! I’m still scared. Scared of ‘hurting’ her and therefore myself. I’ve stopped communicating with mine, and I don’t know if it’s the answer for me. Maybe I’ll get strong enough to stand my ground. Maybe there’s no point (for her....but for me?) in doing that with mine. Work in progress.

Very good to hear how you’re doing CJ. Thought-provoking too... Thank you for your post. Best wishes P