Mothering Again...

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, dear:

something you said:

Otherwise, I have to keep my boundaries up.

AND the illustration you gave - letting her spew all her rage & blame out onto you - sparked an idea that might help you start to figure out what's going on - subtext and context stuff. Granted the idea is colored with where I've been in myself - attachment.

It sounds to me as if she'd like - as if she were an infant - to not have any boundaries between the two of you. Her feelings - yours too.... for mirroring and marking back to her, maybe?? She wants you to be upset that she's upset. Assuming you've told her how this is affecting you - wonder why she isn't hearing??? She wants to projectile vomit it all out onto you - and expects you to clean it up - only because you ARE mom. It's like she's pushing the limits... testing you... wanting you to be angry with her and punish her... instead of trying expand your capacity for taking all her crap. Because deep down, perhaps that's what she believes she deserves. For mom to be so angry, so fed up and out of patience and energy... that you forcefully abandon her to her fate.

I sure hope I'm wrong, Hops - coz truthfully, I wouldn't know how to handle that situation either. We all have our limits - our breaking points - for being in this kind of hostile environment. And sure enough - you need to blow off some steam and anger about this, too. No, I don't think you're self-pitying in acknowledging how painful this is. And frustrating! I'll keep checking in on you about how you're doing. Make sure you get at least 15 mins outdoors in the peace & quiet enjoying the spring change in the weather (even the rain)!! It will help a little.

[teartracks]

Hi Hops,

Today I reread the post I left...doesn't make a bit of sense...too late at night I suppose.

What I was trying to say is that I'm very sorry for the hurt you're experiencing and that when someone you love deeply sets out to hurt you it is a double hurt.

Also trying to say that when you have that deep and abiding love, it's especially hard because  it's impossible to depersonalize the hurt.  And that even when you think you can't bear anymore, you do, for you want to be strong for them.  

You've showered your daughter with love and a soft place to land.  You can't go wrong showing that kind of love.  

Hope this makes a little more sense.  

tt

[Hopalong]

PR, thanks hon...that bleak view may just be true. And if it is, I need more starch in my spine.
My poor kid.

TT, thank you. I so hope you're right!

I am wiped out but DO have one piece of great news...she didn't tell me, but the friend of mine did...at the last minute, she accepted the job she had told the interviewers she didn't think she wanted (they held it for her for a week, just because of the boss' kindness to me). She won't earn much but she'll be out of the house every day, no longer able to sleep in the basement all day long, at least in contact with other people...it's GOT to help her! And she'll be walking, which ought to help in springtime!

Love and thank you all so much again, I owe more answers...will write again asap.

xoxo
Hops

[lighter]

So glad to hear there's good news, Hops.

Just jumping in late, but.....

you have a chance to model for your daughter how to state, and defend, healthy boundaries (when she's spewing.)

This can be an opportunity for growth and teaching, not just an excercise in pain and remaining stuck.

I especially like these rules:

#1.  If you want to talk to me, you may not yell, curse, name call, change subjects before one is handled or leave without setting a time to return and finish the discussion.

If someone can't follow those rules, they don't get an audience.  They get to see me walking out of the room or getting in the car and motoring away,  (in a very calm manner, hopefully: )

Mo2

[Hopalong]

I think you're right on all counts, dear CB.
The little power struggles are pointless and it's much better to just not have a need expressed and muddle on. Mostly, I don't ask much...but any small request does get magnified into The Battle. You're right, I vacuumed before (now and then when the dust bunnies grew 2' high) and will do it again. As to the lessons about whether I can/want to manage a house this size, that's all moot until my brother responds to the last settlement offer. One way or another, the estate has to be settled, either by me buying him out so I can sell it or keep it (the only choice for me, as I can't sell it WITH him, that would be BULLY II)...or if he never will, then eventually back to court for a forced sale (and at that point no judge would force me to work with him). So I'm safe here for now and have adapted to the limbo. For my D, it all adds to her feels of instability. She says, I'm sleeping on the couch of a person who's sleeping on the couch. (In the longer term, I have come many miles in letting go. If it's clear at the time that I can't keep it, I'm ready to let it go and make a cozy nest somewhere else.) Just not clear yet.

I do have to (and have grown eager to) let D go. When she was in Miami, down to $150 and sounding irrational ("All I need is a bicycle")...I didn't have the heart to say, Gosh, let me know what happens. I did intervene to "rescue" her and she resents it bitterly that instead of paying for a truck, gas, fuel to get her home, I didn't just send her the money to do whatever she wanted with. I just couldn't. She'd just stiffed me for thousands, I am hurting financially, and I knew that whatever I sent she'd blow through and it wouldn't be enough to keep her safe. Now, she's safe, but furious. One sticking point I will talk through with my T today is she wanted to keep her things in a storage unit down there, and I pushed her to bring it ALL here. So now, she has the monthly expense of that (would have down there as well) and also felt that it was the last thread that kept her linked to her dream there. She really resented that I pushed her to get it all in one place, especially this town, which she hates. She said for her emotionally that was the last straw, and I believe her. She also has a complex argument that because I said I'll get you a UHaul but not a rental car, and I'm not paying for a storage unit, I didn't give her the help SHE wanted but only the help that I wanted...that I really owe her that money so she can start again.

I know what she'd prefer: I give her about $10K I don't have, so she can get a car and move back there. On the one hand, it's tempting. On the other it would be disastrous for me financially. And it's really not enough to get her into a safe situation. $20K would be, but I don't have it. So, one step at a time.

Thank god for a good T, friends, and this board.

You are right on the pulse of it when you talk about me REALLY letting go and releasing the outcome, in faith that I can have a good life whether my daughter rejects me forever or not. I think...I have no choice.

And the medium chill courtesy without engagement about our relationship is critical and I have to stop agreeing to the marathon sessions with her when I feel absolutely verbally beaten up. I think the more I consent to it, the more it escalates. Hopefully, we'll find a new family counselor who can help us with hearing each other, soon.

Must go write. Thank you CB, and TT, and everyone, for all the kindness and wisdom and caring.

Beyond thanks.

Hops

[Hopalong]

Thanks, M02--

It's not yelling and cursing...it's a cold tempered knife work. She talks, nonstop. What she does is to describe me to myself, taking every failing, every weakness, every imperfection, and narrating it to me in a detailed pretty vicious portrait of blame and failure. Why every piece of her desperation is my fault. At great length. With many intimate details.

All designed to blame, and hurt.

The bottom line of all of it: YOU are responsible for my life. So you OWE me the money I need to leave.

(CB, I really do not have the money to "let her go". The emotional part, I am working on as hard as I can. But I do not have the money that would help her get out of here. That's the bind I'm in.)

The look on her face is....bully. She's verbal. Smart.

Hops

[Lucky]

This might not be of any use but if I were in your shoes I would be snarling at the girl. She is really acting intolerable. She is hurt (also by you) but still that does not give her the right to treat you like you and your feelings don't count at all. She is no longer a child so there is no need for her to behave like a toddler or a teenager. You don't deserve such harsh punishment.

[sKePTiKal]

When I said that you are on the verge of a breakthrough, this is what I meant: I think you are going to have to be willing to give your daughter the freedom to walk away from the relationship so you can come back to gether when you are both on firmer emotional ground.

What CB said. Repeat as needed. 

Seriously, CB's post is full of wise, useful, practical info. And mine was a bit muddled, as usual. This bit above stood out to me as the fulcrum for change.

The yin to the yang; the flip side of "attachment" - is separation. How we separate ourselves from our moms and become that independent, self-sufficient person is a process that has far & deep reaching bits that hook into our identities - and yes, in the life-history of "this happened; he said - she said" narrative in one's brain. (all that vituperative blame)

Sometimes, we do have an opportunity for a do-over in the separation process. Maybe some of the bleakness in my first post can be offset by the opportunity you have now to see that you can walk alongside your D on her journey through hell. I still believe that she'll work it out and later on, your relationship will be stronger for your willingness to put up with the HOW of her processing. I have to reread CB's post again - there's a wealth of goodness in it - so for now, I'll just give you the one thing I've learned about this process which I know is working for me - and my D.

Less is more. The less I do for my D the better. Some things are unavoidable - like the financial support in a crisis. I couldn't live with myself, otherwise. But, I always clearly point out what I think she needs to do and how I will/can help (and let her know that's still her choice to accept that or not) and never, ever forget to also tell her that I have full faith in her ability to choose wisely for herself and to accomplish what it is she needs & wants to do or attain. Then I get out of her way and except for progress reports or contact & interaction of a general nature... I stand aside and just observe, so that when she asks for reassurance or advice (and she does) I can answer with my perspective. When I don't know what to say - I just repeat my reassurance that she'll figure it all out or succeed, as much to remind me - as it is boost her confidence.

Fact is: our D's journey and the paths they take or find themselves on belong to them. We can't choose or protect them from them. It consoles me - and I hope it will console you - when I am asked to walk alongside for a bit or provide perspective from where I sit, without resuming my "mom" role. My goal has been to find a way to move from re-assuming my role as "mom" to my D to becoming her friend. My D is 32 and such a strong personality we call her "a force of nature" and we are still working on and refining this. The boundaries aren't set in concrete - they shift continuously back & forth. It's always a juggling act and we don't always get things "right". We do step on each others toes in the process. It helps when there is the ability to cut each other some slack for those less than "perfect" moments and confidence in each other - that we're doing the best we can, right now.

And yeah - she and I have been through some ugly painful times together too - to even get to the point where we can both see this now. Times when everything I said was "wrong". Your D is earning her life-wisdom merit badges - the process, the method, the fall-out is all hers. But the safe place, the workshop, to work through all that is YOURS to give and she needs this. Yep - she's making a huge mess and blaming you and being a brat while she's in the process of reinventing herself. But you know about "creative messes"... beautiful things can come from them. Patience with her procrastination & stumbles and take care of you instead - let her take care of herself. You don't have to participate in those berating sessions - just "don't do it now". Things will look SOOOO much different with the distance CB pointed out and a few months from now. Much better to de-brief after a new foundation is laid, than during the process itself.

((((((((((Hops))))))))))) Even if I'm totally off-base with this, it's coz I've walked in your shoes and I care 'bout you, sweetie. You aren't who she's angry with, at the bottom of all this. She won't know that for awhile yet.

[teartracks]

Dear Hops,

All this is about releasing your daughter to take responsibility for her life.  Can you have that (her taking responsibility for her own life) as your focus as you practice tough love?   

Love,
tt 

[sKePTiKal]

You cant help her by giving her $10000 or $20000 or even the cost of moving out of the house.  She is stuck in her own head--just as all of us here have been--and she is on a journey to get out.  Look at Gaining Strength!  At Axa...at Izzy.  I remember where they were a few years back when I was beginning my own journey out.  We all muddled around and ranted about the people who had done us wrong and when we were through, and sitting on the ground panting with the exhaustion of ranting, we looked around and said "now what?"  All of a sudden, we wanted to be somewhere else: in a broad sunlit place with all the possibilities that we had been without for so long, stretching before us.  Your D will get to that place too, but she is not through with the first step.

This is so absolutely on the money that I have nothing to say or add to it - at least until I pick my awed jaw up from the floor.

[Hopalong]

Lucky, PR, CB, TT...

I am so sorry I've let this lapse.
Absolutely HAMMERED with deadlines right now and I have to really gather myself emotionally to do your kindnesses justice. But there is SO much help and wisdom and comfort in your responses.

I'm just letting them roll around inside until I can gather the words again.

For no good reason it's easier for me to post on others' threads when I'm still processing something very big, so I may take quick breaks to post still, before I update here.

But please know how profoundly I appreciate what you've written here, and how deeply helpful it's been. You give me comfort and hope and new ways to see my situation and that helps me be more compassionate to my D and myself.

(My jaw dropped in awe too. And for all of you.) I'm moved and grateful and HELPED.

D has gone off to her job 3 days in a row now, such a huge help that will be. Even more than earning a bit, it's OFF the couch, OUT of the basement, and OUT into the world and interacting with other people. Thank God. Six months of her self-imposed jail time was more than enough and I was afraid she would literally go around the bend. It had begun.

One other hopeful note is that we have an appt. with a new family T whom my own T recommended highly. That's on the 7th. So perhaps we will make some progress again.

Such amazing insights about the ghost of my mother's modeling, CB, and the proper perspective on petty power struggles (I've stepped out of those as much as possible). And things ARE feeling better.

Tonight's our next "talk time" so we'll see. I plan to be calm and strong.

Lucky, thanks for having my back. Sometimes just a little spurt of indignation is heartening too.

PR, you're so right, it's all about separation. And I am newly dedicated to enabling THAT, not daily dependency. I am just as eager to help her move on as she is to go, the only issues to sort out are how I can do that without breaking my own financial back. So it will definitely be a while, and meanwhile, I will practice that patience you talk about as profoundly as I can.

TT, yes. I'm ready to let her accept responsibility for her life. SHE's not, but I can step back and stop being "hooked" by her insistence that I do it for her, whatever her justification.

And tonight, I will continue to take care of myself and leave the talk if it turns bullying again. That is a regular message I can send, in calm, that is tough love. Serving as her whipping post has undermined us both and my guilt is all expiated now. It won't motivate me to help her and it's toxic to us both.

I noticed her making food and offering to share it, often, since she started her job. This morning I got up and made lunches for us both.

Small things. But they're what it all adds up to, in time.

Releasing and RE-releasing, and thanks again, must dash to work.

love and thanks,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Our second "sit down" session, last night, went better. At the beginning I told her my commitment was to listen to her compassionately and without interrupting, but that if I came to feel overloaded with blame and criticism, I reserved my choice to leave the conversation. I meditated on compassion and "white light" as I listened to her.

Some blaming (well, a lot) went on but without hostility...and other things came out too. She talked more and more about how utterly miserable she is and how she can't take it much longer, living here. She said a lot of things that I could understand--she hates being in the basement, if she were in the master BR she'd feel dominated by me and the tenants' presence means she doesn't feel at ease on the first floor either. She talked over and over and over about my forcing her to bring all her belongings here with her, and how that was the last straw as she now feels every thread has been severed. Her friends aren't talking to her and she feels they assume that because she's "home with Mom" she's safe and well if inconvenienced, where the truth for her is that it's completely toxic, she feels absolutely no hope, and she can't make progress in this house. The longer it goes on the more she feels she's losing her connections and community in Miami, school, her tutoring job, the friends she had made. She was only there 2 years and if she stays away much longer she'll not be able to rebuild.

What I'm worried about, desperately, is that I think she's spiraling downward, mental health wise. I have offered her every possible resource and she turns them down or places obstacles. I am truly afraid, because of a few of her remarks, that she is contemplating suicide.

And I will tell my counselor and she and I do have a family counseling appt. on the 7th. But for me the real issue is, she needs individual therapy and support, desperately, and she's not getting it.

I will keep trying and I will share, in counseling, what my concern is. I think it's getting way past the point when worrying about whether she loves me matters. I am so worried about her.

I wrote her a letter, up until 4 a.m., and haven't sent it. It was all about spiritual strength and ways of finding it, and more suggestions, and wishes, and things that have helped me survive the darkest times. But I don't know that she can accept any help from me and I don't want to make things worse.

Thanks for listening,
Hops

[Worn]

(((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))

I don't have any insights.  I just wanted you to know I feel your pain.  Take care of yourself.  You are a wonderful person! 

Much love, Worn

[CB123]

Hops,

I am so sorry for this pain and anxiety.  I know the sleepless nights with your thoughts whirling and whirling.

Please keep coming back here so we can hold your hand and be support for you.  You will need support, too, lots in 3D as well.  I hope she will agree to some therapy and support...she has kinda got herself boxed into a corner with all her requirements.  When my kids have done that, they have later told me that they just felt desperate and cast around in all directions trying to figure out how to get relief.  Her feeling of being trapped in any room of the house makes me think of that...

I know you are worried sick...and I agree that you two need some outside help...but I do think this can have a positive ending, and that she could possibly be going through this same thing if she were in Miami.  I am glad she is here with you, even if she does think that that's what triggered her crisis.  She may very well see that differently when she is on the other side of this. 

Love you
CB

[Hopalong]

thank you Worn, for your kindness...
and thank you, CB. You have my profound gratitude.

I did tell her in my long letter than she could be feeling it in Miami too. I emptied myself of every possible thing I could suggest.

She had mentioned just in one brief moment last night, with a hopeless look, that she wished she could belong to the nearby gym. I asked about walking, using my exercise bike. She just shook her head. She wasn't asking me for anything. I recognized that this was one small thing that would help her help herself, and it would also get her among people. The isolation she's in is profound. She walks to and from work alone, she works in a cubicle among strangers.

So I went today and bought her a 3-month membership and gave her the card. I think it was just like buying her medicine. She needs to get stronger and if this is a tool that works for her, I could give it. She said thanks and looked glad.

When she responded to my letter-email, her answer was two lines: I do not need any advice from you. Stop sending it.

So...I won't try any more pouring-out letters again. I hope some of it sank in anyway. I asked her a lot of questions about her thought patterns and depression and begged her to fight.

I think there's not a lot more I can do.

Thank you for being here. I'll surely be leaning on you.

love,
Hops