Identifying behaviors which create the voiceless role

[Hopalong]

I think for me the behavior has been an open eagerness.

A high school bf once said to my Dad, Mr. Long, Hopalong is about as hard to read as the Sunday paper.

I had empathy, eagerness, vulnerability, every emotional response on my face like a billboard.

5 decades later, I've learned a bit of mask.

Hate that, but it seems necessary, just as wee critters dive for the underbrush in the wild...

I have to be my own shelter.

Hops

[HeartofPilgrimage]

NLAS, the only thing I can add to what everybody else has said about those weird "opposite" messages we sometimes get is ...

For me, I had to realize that I was too extreme both in being nice and in being bitchy. Basically, I would disrespect my own feelings and my own rights, and take it and take it and take it from somebody else until I had just had it and then I would rip 'em a new one. I had to come to grips with that and work to change my pattern ... to be more honest in the moment and not wait until I was ready to throttle the other person.

[bearwithme]

Sorry.  The post below is a repeat of my last entry, I did not mean to quote myself in the proces of quoting Ami:

This said it! This is true and now I wonder what other people think of the "weak person" and do they KNOW that person is "weak."  Ami: I have a sister-in-law who loves to attack me when my guard is down (so it seems). She knows I'm nicer than nice and when I'm not looking, she let's me have it.   But she is seen in the family (my husband's family) as such a great, smart wonderful person.  They all talk about her as "tough as nails" or "she's so incredibly pragmatic and 'tells it like it is'".  If she's NOT confident, then why do people say that she is?  I have to think that they don't see the evil side of her because SIL likes the family and wants to belong.  SIL wants to push me out!

Ales2:  Sticking up for myself at the appropriate times is the biggest problem I have.  It eats away at my core.  To RISK not being NICE, for me, is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute.  It defies my logic.  I have worked on this since I went to therapy 8 years ago.  I need the tools to be assertive with boundaries and oh how I try.  I feel this has to do with quick thinking in a situation that calls on you to stick up for yourself or to be assertive.  I suffer from "slow thinking."  AFTER THE FACT, I pound my head saying, "why didn't I say this, or, why didn't I say that?"  And then I beat myself up over not sticking up for myself and allowing my voice to be 'heard.'

It's not like I don't know what "sticking up for myself" is all about, it's just my timing.  How can I put the "after the fact" thoughts in to play when I need to?? 

Bear

[river]

swimmer, I read your original question differently

Has anyone here looked at the actual behaviors which "invite" a voiceless role in a given group.  I marvel how people in my profession can actually lack skill, but somehow they are never scapegoated or made wrong.

this sounds like you're asking about why do groups stay silent and collude when theres something wrong, eg, an important skill thats lacking. 

.... am I on the right track here?? 

[swimmer]

All these posts are thought provoking in a healing way:).

I just get so annoyed at work because usually my experience background is shot down in some way or another.  I'll have the answer to something, and meanwhile people are literally scrambling around me trying to solve something.  When someone from the outside of my group comes along, they come to me and my coworkers hate that.  That's what I mean by having the skill needed at hand.  It's like I'm invisable.  It usuallyhappens after I have a good evaluation.  People notice you aren't slumping after an eval, and they pounce on you.  I NEVER talk about any success I've ever had, or praise.  I don't gossip, and this might be a red flag, telling people I'm nice.  I never try to be good and correct gossip, I just find a way to get busy and work.

That's why I'm wondering if any of you guys were regretful for a specific statement or reaction you thought put a target on your forehead.  I think Ami is right on, that being nicer to other people than yourself is a good place to start:).   

Keeping a low profile is important I've noticed, what are some of the "rules" you've lived by knowingly or without realizing that nurture this low profile phenomena?   I'm gregarious, so this does not come easy to me.

I'm not sure if this makes any sense?  This thread has grown beautifully so keep it going as well:)))

     

[KatG]

N’s hate seeing other people praised or looking good in front of them.  They have such low self esteem, it becomes a dagger for them to take out and beat you down with.  I had to ask someone at work to stop praising me in front of others, so I know what you mean by low profile.  They can’t handle any attention being on anyone else but themselves.  That’s one of many reasons for them to pounce, invalidate you.  At least with the spotlight not on you, their horrid attention/reactions gets drawn elsewhere.

It doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do.  These people are too terrified to lose complete control of everything.  All or nothing mentality.  They must live in constant fear of rejection.  They must think that a human isn’t capable of loving unconditionally (just themselves).  Well, by holding on too tightly to controlling everything, they could potentially self-fulfill their prophecy.  Do they know that subconsciously, making them worse?   I’ve wondered about the gossip thing also.

I do not regret standing up for myself at work, even though I was severely punished.  It opened my eyes, I now know what these people are capable of, and I will never expect any anything from them again.  One way street with you being the one to give.  You either get out to stop the bleeding, or continue to let them sponge off you. 

N’s won’t share.  They can’t stand you having something they don’t.  So, they either take it from you, or one-up you by obtaining something better. 

It isn’t being nice if you’re allowing yourself to be a doormat.  That’s not being nice to yourself.  It is hard to find the balance!

[river]

posted by bearwithme;

To RISK not being NICE, for me, is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute.  It defies my logic.  I have worked on this since I went to therapy 8 years ago.  I need the tools to be assertive with boundaries and oh how I try.  I feel this has to do with quick thinking in a situation that calls on you to stick up for yourself or to be assertive.  I suffer from "slow thinking."  AFTER THE FACT, I pound my head saying, "why didn't I say this, or, why didn't I say that?"  And then I beat myself up over not sticking up for myself and allowing my voice to be 'heard.'
It's not like I don't know what "sticking up for myself" is all about, it's just my timing.  How can I put the "after the fact" thoughts in to play when I need to?? 

This takes the words out of my mouth (so to speak!).   So much of my story, those missed moments.  Specailly this:
 

It eats away at my core.

  .......This describes it so well.   Because for me, it means i'm out of integrity for not having spoken my truth.  Yet, it happens so, so quicly, that I close down on myself, my logic somehow comes down and shuts out me for what I would have said.   
Currently I'm practicing staying conscious in situations where I could shut down, that is, staying wth my real self, staying present, etc. 
I thnk, one has to have a process which enables one to re-grow those damaged parts where we fall into that ravine anyway.   Im trying to create this process but cant prove it yet, still in early stages. 

[bearwithme]

I'm with you on all of this River!  Let's try this together.  I need an example to follow and to practice.

This got me thinking:  Has anyone heard of those workshops where you role play being assertive or sticking up for yourself.  I saw something once where a group was demeaning  to a woman and she had no idea what was going on and they kept making fun of her, personal attacks and odd things, etc., then they had her stand up and take the floor and the room was silent.  She had all the time she needed to say what she wanted, even cried, and finally told everyone (hypothetically) off!  She was interviewed after and she said that she finally understood what it means to say what you mean and mean what you say and to preserve your own moment in time....she said it was a "physical" reaction and not emotional.  I don't know what she meant by that.  Perhaps her heart stopped racing and she calmed down enough to get the right words out, etc.????

I would like to do something like this, really.  I think it would be a good exercises for me.

Just thinking about stuff.....


Bear

[river]

What a story !


".

to preserve your own moment in time....

.................
 those words hit the spot for me!!!     going to keep and use those words best as I can. 

....she said it was a "physical" reaction and not emotional.  I don't know what she meant by that.  Perhaps her heart stopped racing and she calmed down enough to get the right words out, etc.????

...............
but dont you think, if it happens so instantaniously when we dont say the words, then its almost like a physiological reaction, rather than thought or emotion, so, therefore, the converse would also be true.   You know all the research thats so talked about re neurological stuff? ~ well, that could be it, one can re-wire on the spot !!  : ? 

In my time, I've been to so many groups etc and learnt assertive skills, then inspite of all I know, in a situation, ~ I find I've done it again, - hopelessness and despair.   So, I've needed a deeper process than learing the skills, tho the skills are vital too, but you got to be present internally to even be able to use the skills. 

 

[Hopalong]

Hi Bear,

If you search Assertiveness Training or ask a women's organization where these workshops might be found in your community, that's what you need....

I requested them locally and a women's organization began to run them now and then.

They're an amazing experience. Really nips passive aggression in the bud and teaches you to feel safe about being in the present moment. Then you can speak.

hugs
Hops

[swimmer]

All in all, it sounds like the best way to avoid this voiceless role is to... stay low profile, somehow "privatize" success, express thoughts in a "non-emotional" way & practice assertive skills when getting beaten down.

Swimmer:)   

[bearwithme]

Reading these posts again got me thinking about my quirky habit.  A confession of sorts.

I have a habit if talking to the wall after I've been beaten down.  I especially do this when I see my sister-in-law who has been less than nice to me over the years and has insulted me and yelled at me in public, etc.  I even talk to the mirror and "stick up for myself" to myself.  I will be driving in my car and have a full fledged argument about what just happend and I will say the things I should have said.  But shamefully, I do this over and over again until I'm all stressed out again.  Then I take a deep breath and try to shake it off but it really never goes away.

I know, I'm weird or schizophrenic!

Bear

[Hopalong]

You thought you were the only one whose mirror and car interior know exactly what you want to say???

Not soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

xo
Hops

[bearwithme]

You thought you were the only one whose mirror and car interior know exactly what you want to say???

Not soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

xo
Hops

LOL!!  I'm so in good company!!

[swimmer]

I agree, interesting story Bear.... This reminds me of a few select times in my life where I really told off my NM.  One was when she was suicidal (a dear HS friend of mine commit suicide and she knew this).  I came home from college on a whim (big mistake), and decide to call just in case... It was snowing lightly etc..  My step dad said I'm so glad you called, your mom has locked herself in the bathroom blah blah... At that time I did not know what was going on, so I panicked, called a close friend as I wanted to find a sane adult for some support.   Anyways.....

When I got there, she was still in bathroom, finally came out after a while.  I'm getting somewhere here I promise:)...... We were all sitting there in her bedroom.... Dear family friend, stepdad, myself & her.  I had this flash of clarity and words started coming out of my mouth I hadn't planned on saying.....About how thoughtless she was, seeing her daughter go through the pain and guilt of a friend's suicide, then this.... Everyone in the room was speechless and my mother said she was impressed by my "speech"... Along with our dear fam friend an stepdad, they were like, wow!  I really felt like my body was speaking, it was as if I didn't have a thought, but was saying everything right.  It was completely visceral.

I'm not sure if this is the same, but it reminded me of this memory.


Swimmer