Friendless N Moms?

[sunblue]

As i've been reading some of the threads lately, especially as it pertains to Nmoms, it seems there are two categories.  The first is the kind of Nmom who, because she's all about the image and how others perceive her, is very social, engages with others (even though they're superficial, selfish interactions).  the second kind of Nmom is the opposite.  She doesn't have any friends, has no interest in making any and is pretty antisocial.  Of course, Ns don't know how to be a friend...they certainly have extreme expectations from others which doesn't apply to them.

My Nmom falls in the second category.  She sits so high on her throne, she apparently always thought she was too good for others.  Or, somehow, all those long-time "friendships" just disappeared, always because the other person did her wrong. 

What I realized is because of the neglect of Nmoms like this, we, or at least I, never learned how to make friends, how to socialize effectively.  Now, I'm not anti-social in the least.  Throughout my life, there were sort of acquantances in my life, even people who would say I was a wonderful friend....they just never reciprocated.  I often wonder why that is.  I know as a daughter of an Nmom, which is often the case, I tend to overcompensate by giving to others when they don't give back.  I suppose that's because we never got what we needed from our parents in terms of nurturing, attention and affection. 

I wonder i fyou were the child of the kind of Nmom in the first category who was social...even though the friendships might have been superficial at best...did you find it easier to make and keep friends or relationshps?

I find this interesting...and can't help but wonder the what ifs.

sunblue

[Portia]

I think they can be in both categories. Social and surrounded by 'admirers' when on top form: alone and dismissive of everyone when 'everyone' has not met their needs and they've either wised up, or been dumped.

People generally don't reciprocate with me because I don't let them know that I have needs.  Of course, the few friends that look more closely than what clothes you wear do know me and do reciprocate. I'm lucky to have maybe 2 friends.

I can socialise: I just don't want to. What do you see? Masks and madness, mainly.

[JustKathy]

Hi Sunblue,

I fall into the category that you do. In fact, what you wrote describes me perfectly.

I also grew up with no social skills, and did not know how to make friends. I'm super friendly and outgoing, and am always well liked at the office, but when I leave a job, the friendships end there. I, too, feel that my friendships are never reciprocated, and also wonder why. If I have great friends at the office, why are those people so quick to break contact with me once I leave that job? Or is that just typical behavior. Once you leave the inner circle, that's it?

I DO have a bad problem with giving more than I get back, so maybe these people were never really friends to begin with, but mere acquaintances. I tend to get taken advantage of, will do favors for friends, even offer them services that I would normally charge for, because I think I'm helping a friend. Then they take what I gave them and leave. I do spend a lot of time beating myself up, and thinking that no one likes me, and that I'm a huge sucker, and so on, but I know that's not the case. I always have friends on the job or at school, but no long-term bond is ever formed. Always very temporary.

[Sealynx]

Justkathy, Portia and Sunblue,
I have the same pattern in my life. I am well liked at work and by my students but when it comes to close friends I don't have any that I feel really close too or enjoy being around and have done far too much for others who I doubt would call if it weren't for advice. I also find that the few people who seek me out are not my type at all and I don't understand what they want or what I give them.

I have a male friend with whom I share some things with, but he has a lot of issues and I feel that if it weren't for those issues, his life would not include me. Like Portia I think part of the problem is that I don't appear to have any needs. Like many of us I had to take care of me because no one else would. I once had someone tell me that I just don't give off a "spark". I think that is true.  There is a magic that people seem to find in each other that just isn't there for me. I learned to look for and expect to fulfill their wants and needs. I have come to see most people as just another problem I don't want.

Recently one of my neighbors I was trying to get to know better tried to set me up with a friend of hers that was just diagnosed with cancer!! She thought I'd be good for him!!..What about me??? I guess like Portia said, I appear to be so well put together that I can take on the problems of the world...and should never ask for a fun night out!!!

[sunblue]

Wow!  I so identify with all that you've all said here.  I also understand Seal's remark about being set up with someone because she's be "good" for them.  So similar here.  It's always what we can do for other people...never what they can do for us.  For me, that just reinforces the deep feelings I've always felt that I didn't matter, was invisible, was only good for what I could give others. 

And yes, I find I can make work acquaintances...who don't hesitate to confide in me, ask for favors, lean on me....but they don't seem to be there, especially when they move on to other jobs...

It seems we can't win.  The "spark" that is there in others, others who come from differnet kinds of upbringing, is missing...but how could it be there?  Is it possible to have that bright spark, when you have the challenges we do?  I know others faced with different kinds of challenges can still have that spark...but someone the hole that is in me prevents an authentic spark....

I think it's just harder for us to have relationships....what role models did we have?

[Twoapenny]

Hi Sun,

My mum falls into the first category - lots of friends, lots of social engagements, lots of parties.  Their house was the house of fun, if you wanted a drink and a good time our place was where you headed.  Both my parents are very attentive hosts - your glass is always topped up, there is a huge amount of food (and my mum is a very good cook), nothing is too much trouble, the music's playing and everyone is having a good time.  But it's very superficial.  There's no real conversation, it's all gossip and chit chat.  Everyone is slagged off when they leave and their 'performance' is rated and discussed, along with their outfit, weight, relationship with their husband/wife/children.  Anyone who is bags of fun scores highly, anyone who isn't (someone who doesn't drink, for example) will be crucified once they've left.

I have terrible problems with relationships for the simple fact that I never had any kind of relationship with my parents or siblings growing up - we each had our role to play.  As a consequence, I carried on my role in my own life - I was the queen of fun, the original party animal and had dozens of 'friends'.  When I had my son, though, the partying had to stop - and I realised I didn't really have any friends and the few I did have I pushed away - I was so insecure I scrutinised everything they did and said until I convinced myself they were 'after' something and cut ties with them.  I am very, very lonely and very aware that I am not setting my son a good example when it comes to building relationships with others.  I have a couple of friends I can talk to about most things but I see them only once or twice a year because they live so far away.  I find it impossible to talk on the phone about heavy stuff - I don't know why, but I just can't seem to do it.  So I think that, whichever kind of N you grow up with, the outcome is probably very similar.  It's a good thread, very thought provoking, thanks for posting it.

[Portia]

Sealynx

Oh, that spark, I wonder what they meant? The spark of 'using' 'taking' 'neediness' 'hunger for love'? Yep, that kind of spark appeals to a lot of people. The magic of recognising something from babyhood etc.  "I learned to look for and expect to fulfill their wants and needs. I have come to see most people as just another problem I don't want."  - agreed, except: now I can see their needs and don't want to fulfill them. And most people are not my problem, but most people probably are a problem,to somebody - and sometimes i can see those problems too. Problems? Well, just being human stuff I guess. Death and taxes.

But, typically, I got caught out after typing today because I met someone who I know but see rarely,but really like, and we chatted for quite a while. I deliberately caught his attention with a big grin. Haven't seen him for over a year. He remembered our conversation from then and asked if the wedding took place and I felt my world sort of slip very slightly. I said yes, and that I'd done my bit,but he wanted to know: was it any better for me? I laughed "no it's worse" but said I'd got lots of support from some friends who "know all about it" (more than he does) and smiled, to make it okay for him (because that is required, here in the real world). But back at home later it hit me hard for a moment, you know how something catches you unawares,when you're doing something mundane? And some kind of small pure panic/fear went fast through myhead. And i thought: I must tell those friends, tell them how damn important they are to me. How i would be mad without them. How my other half would be mad without them. Anyway,it only lasted a moment, that fear, and the brain said 'it's okay and it's real'. Without my friends, what wouild I have done? But, without my friends, I wouldn't have done what I did do, I wouldn't have ...trusted my instincts so much as to push them. I wouldn't have....who knows. It is what it is.

[Sealynx]

I think its like that story I told about the two children at the beach, one already horribly frightened and the other open and protected without knowing she was being protected. Once the world view is set, it colors everything, forever. I think I can get better at certain things but I will always know more about how much people can hurt me tham I do about how much they can love me.

I was watching something on Ted Talks today about how memory tends to judge things by how they ended and not how they went. If all my early experiences ended badly, every time a new experience doesn't end well, it adds to the pile of negative feelings and I can't see it in balance. I don't have all those wonderful childhood memories to fall back on. Its bleak. I'm always at a loss when some meditation or book I'm reading says...go back to a time in childhood when you were really happy. I can't find any.

[sunblue]

Seal...I can so identify.  I remember a doc once asked me to tell him a speciific example of a time when I felt joy and happiness....more than a moment.  But I couldn't.  There haven't been any.  And yet ,from a very young age, I remember myself always being the sentimental one in my family....still am.  I always really valued the concept of family and friends.  I just never had any.  But that doesn't mean I don't think they're the most important thing you can have in life.

I also seem to have a different definition of friendship than others do.  I have a work colleague who refers to me to others as her "best friend".  I don't feel the same.  My view of a best friend is someone you can count on, who you can trust and confide on, who you can call at midnight to pour out your feelings to.  I don't have anybody like that...but if I did, I'd reserve that term just for special people in my life.

I, too, always think of others first, tend to protect them, even when it would be helpful if I could share what I'm thinking or feeling.  But my thought is always of the other person first.  I always thought it very perplexing...that I would go out of my way to be a wonderful friend to others (something other people acknowledged) but somehow always found myself without real friends.....I was just never important enough to anyone else to have a real friendship or relationship with...it was always transitory, temporary or superficial.  I truly don't understand it.

I have this work colleague who thinks so highly of herself...has self confidence.  She boasts how everyone loves her--especially men..because she's so beautiful and smart and sexy.  She comes into my office every day and literally "twirls" and asks me to tell how howgreat she looks.  I can never be that.  I can never think that highly of myself.  In fact, it's the oposite.

So I guess how I was raised had a total effect on the ability fo attract and form relationshps...and it's quite lonely.  So I can identify with all of you.

[Portia]

Sealynx

I will always know more about how much people can hurt me tham I do about how much they can love me.

Understand this, something I've wondered is: there must be some kind of use for this, some way to put it to good use, as in a job or other activity, but I can't see it. Well, I can't see it because I always see alllllll the 'againsts' before I would put credibility in the 'fors'. Obviously.

Sunblue,
She comes into my office every day and literally "twirls" and asks me to tell how howgreat she looks.

Your company employs 3 year-olds then?

[sunblue]

Seal:

LOL!  Yes, welcome to my world...3-year-olds who twirl untl someone agrees with her that she is the "fairest of them all"!...The really sad thing is that she should know better..she is an executive earning a salary to match.  She is know throughout the company as someone who gets away with murder.

So, by day, I deal with an N boss and 3-year old colleague....and off hours, Nmom and enabling dad...

It does seem like the Ns are taking over!

Sun

[Sealynx]

Sunblue,
I have one at work too. The first time she blew up I changed my office hours so I didn't have to be around her anymore. She just had another blow up at the office manager yesterday. She apparently feels she can get away with abusing certain people. She has no idea whose toes she stepped on yesterday. Our office manager doesn't take S(*^ from anyone and several of us have already spoken to the boss about her rages. She isn't full time yet and may just have sealed her doom!!

[Worn]

My nm has lots of acquaintances that think she is 'an angel'.  She does not have any real friends though.  I don't think she fully understands the concept of friendship.  In fact I'm sure she doesn't.  The give and take, the sharing, that's just not in her makeup. 

One time, while throwing a fit over why she had to watch her grandchildren, after she'd already agreed too and my sister had made plane reservations, etc. to go visit her best friend.  She said this beauty, "I just don't understand why you have to have friends.  I just don't see what you get out of it."  Hah!  Perfect.

Worn

[Hopalong]

NMom had social acquaintances, many activities...many people who loyally visited her...a few old friends.
But I think she always had trouble experiencing genuine closeness.

I'd listen to her talks with her female friends and they seemed so empty, un-connecting. But it was partly generational too. Maybe there was more connecting beneath the surface than I understood. She was born in 1910 after all...

At the end of her life, we had a wonderful daytime caregiver, and Mom said to her, D, you are my best friend.

It was heartfelt, and poignant too.

I so wish for her that she'd been able to not keep her family's horrible secret all those years (her father's abusing at the least, her middle sister)...how very close she might have become to several wonderful people, how much better than would've been for her. But on top of that psychological obstacle, was the generational obsession with roles (females' appropriate blah blah blah) and appearances.

I'm so sorry she was afflicted with the damage she had. Now that I'm healing, it's easier to feel compassion for her. She was a lively woman, remarkable in many ways, who could have had much more joy.

Hops