To Mud and CB, and everyone

[debkor]

FP,

The people who taught me (there was something wrong with).  They were beyond old school strict.  Sure they believed in thier faith and were only teaching what they believed in and trying to teach me to believe. 

Remember I went to catholic school so I was not just being taught religion.  They screamed, raged, humilated, name called, punished,
as any, disordered N or abuser would.

It still feels a little bit creepy for me to even be saying this (about nuns).  As a child I had seen them as the right hand of God but represented nothing of whom I thought God to be but how was I to be sure?  I experienced them (actions and all) and learning about God.

Hello!  Conflict!

In reality I do think that my teacher's (projected) some of thier childhood upon the student's.  So I do feel some what sorry for them
and do forgive them. 

I only spoke about my experience in grammer school but my friend's in other catholic school's (teaching's were the same) but teacher's were different ...had a good experience. 

I also failed to tell you that when I graduated catholic grammer school I went to a private high school.  All my friend's went to different schools (our whole young life) some different catholic and some public.  As a teenager's we were so bonded we all wanted to go to the same high school.  In our last two years of high (don't know how we did this one but we did) we got our parent's permission to leave the schools we were in and all go together.  Some couldn't go private, some couldn't go public, so we went catholic. 

My best friend (I wrote about on the holocaust thread) who was Jewish went with us.  She was excused from religion class although she stayed sometimes to just listen about (our faith) and share some of hers.  We celebrated in class our faith and her faith (on holidays).

The only time I stepped back into church was the day we graduated.  I sat beside's my friend.  My family sat with her family.
And when we were leaving....We cried our eye's out. 

We loved it there and the teacher's.  They taught but they didn't abuse.  I still didn't believe everything......

but as you can see::

When it was called upon for (my own personal belief's) and what was taught...I doubted myself.

I guess the catholic church had thier own doubts themselves (as time moved on) a different generation and changed things...
and are well aware of so any people's pain (due to old school).  That is why they let me roll on with Anger...

What are you going to do, ya know? 

I have no choice but to understand and forgive. 

My D is soon to be engaged and wants to be married in Catholic Church.  And I said, Go for it!
My experience is not hers nor did I let her experience anything with Catholic Church. She has choice now.

I do think she will have a good experience.  I did later on but was so sour to go all out.

I don't want her to be sour for my lemons.

Love
Deb

[mudpuppy]

Hi FP,

  I have no desire to get into the inescapable mire of a religious debate so will try to avoid stepping on any toes.
When I say I seek the kingdom of God, not an organized religion I am careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I do go to a non denominational church and I subscribe to the basic tenents of orthodox Christianity because I judge them to be true, but I am also careful to not to be blinded as to what is of God and what is of man.
  What I don't subscribe to are the adornments and man-made doctrines that have added to the simplicity that is Christ.
I believe the Catholic Church, while full of many wonderful Christians has added man-made traditions and doctrine to the Gospel, just as Calvin hung his own peculiar ideas on it as well.
  Since I judge Christ to be the truth I have to take Him as He is. Every idea that veers from that truth is invariably a method by which the originator of the idea seeks to lower God to his own level and create a creator more like him or herself. I have no desire to worship myself nor a God like any other man or woman nor do I believe such a God exists. I find it easy to believe in a supernatural Creator because I see the evidence for Him every day around me, but to me it takes a real leap of blind faith to believe in a God who is moldable or who conforms Himself to his creatures. I don't want, nor do I think there exists, a God who believes the things I do. On the contrary, I seek to know His thoughts and ways and make them mine.
   Regarding the various gospels besides the synoptic ones and John; as part of their not throwing the baby out with the bath water the early fathers really did know what they were doing for the most part. The four Gospels of the NT had an unbroken provenance from their authors to their disciples and then their disciples and were only seperated from those forming the canon by a generation or two. The various gospels such as the gospel of Thomas were rejected not because they contained inconvenient truths but because they were known to be later forgeries with no chain of authenticity. They do contain many truths and admirable doctrines but it's a pretty poor forgery that doesn't. Unfortunately mixed with the truths are obvious untruths written for the most part to support some creed looking to supplant or modify the simple message of Jesus; such as gnosticism.
   Paul stated in 1 Corinthians that he did not come to the Corinthians with excellence of speech or the wisdom of men but was determined to preach only Christ and Him crucified. Somehow man has turned the simple truth of God's love and sacrifice into the millions of contentious stupid books and competing doctrines.
  I will only comment on McDonald's ideas to the extent that they are not contrary to Calvin, whom I consider one of the great but unfortunately also one of the more pernicious minds in history, so much as they are contrary to the words of Jesus Himself and His apostles.

mud

[Gabben]

As a young child, I used to theorize that this world was actually hell and that depending on the life one lived here, one would be reborn to Earth (hell) or go to heaven.  

St. Thomas says: "Christ, although established king by God, did not wish while living on earth to govern temporarily an earthly kingdom, because He came to raise men to divine things."

Hi Deb,

Considering the SA you went through as a child you are quite brave and openminded.

Gabben