Dismissiveness - the scars of living amonst the Ns

[Gaining Strength]

For example I always got DISTRACTED by others' apparent needs.

isn't that the way of the child of Ns Hops.

I'm angry but I don't think my emotions are in my way.  I have learned not to trust anyone again.  I had learned most of that already.  Now I have learned it fully.  But I was getting caught up in others' needs.  That comes from that longing - no  - need to belong, to connect. Oh well = that appears to be available for the many but not all.

There is a bizarre legacy of children of Ns that is so far outside the realm of justice in most world religions.  I can't fully articulate it but it is something like this - the hurt a young child of an N experiences is so acute but society expects happy faces so if a child or adult is not putting on the happy face after experiencing such extreme emotional pain then the people around that person participate funther in the banishment.  Happy faces only need show up!  For some a mask would come out but not for all.  Not good in either case - "who I am - hurt and all" is not welcomed in this world.

[sKePTiKal]

Oh hon.... you're right; she's truly insane. Makes my mom look like an amateur...

You so need to have to some PEACEFUL refreshing downtime... a get rejuvenated "time out"... following a plain old bitch, vent, dump out all the crap session. Some of us are willing to listen to your tale of woe - you don't need to show us a happy face until it's there for a real reason. And for those that do have that expectation?

You don't owe them a thing, now do you?

I made up my mind a long time ago, that I wouldn't satisfy that "why can't can't you just be pleasant and sociable" expectation, when I really wasn't feeling that way. "How are you?" was - and sometimes still is - answered with: "Oh, I'm OK" or "I've been better" or "Surviving, under the circumstances". Why lie when I really wasn't "fine"?? I figured, if they cared they might at least ask "what's going on?" you know? But, they'd better have some time to spend listening, too! 

[James]

GS..............The miscommunication and lack of understanding that we find in all  humanity has it's roots in the denial of human feeling right from the get go. Underneath this is genetic foundation driving individual survival, then the greater.... meaning species. I am also beginning to sense that it goes much much deeper to the survival of life itself in all its forms. Moving to the core so to speak. With deeper  understanding.... insanity becomes logical and then meaningful communication is possible. The holder of the notion that something is insane is fooling himself. It is he who is trying to settle his own deeper fears by the separation of self from another.  Denial is powerful and only when we surrender our defences can we see the truth. As you said earlier it's the push and pull in dialogue or or observation that serves your exploration. Intellectual observations help but when we embrace by feeling our emotions huge understanding emerges. It is a walk through fire and all the pain it brings but on the other side is a sort of genuine SATORI. It is here that life gives up its secrets. Life is feeling not the intellectual. You will feel it in your body not your brain. The brain can be burned, cut it feels nothing unlike the body. In this way fear and pain are are dissvolving in my own life.  Side note..........When I said "I was looking for your approval and will not burden you with is". This was the childs words and knowlege.....My need for love.........in a small world... me and mom.... where the reality she denied in her feelings.......was that she felt like I was a burden. If she had acknowledged it she would not have projected her feelings on me and left me what she thought was wrong to acknowledge...the truth. I carried this reality when I was around women. wanting approval feeling like I was a burden. Even here intellectual understand is not enough the pain must be felt in order to feel.   Hope youre doing OK.  Jim   

[teartracks]

GS,

"who I am - hurt and all" is not welcomed in this world.

I think you nailed it!

tt

[Gaining Strength]

It's sad isn't it TT.

[Gaining Strength]

but when we embrace by feeling our emotions huge understanding emerges.

and this is so much more difficult than it sounds.  For me - connecting to those pains - is still overwhelming.  And moreover, I haven't a clue of what to do with those feelings.  I'm sitting here wondering what "thing", what "action" what anything is the reason my brother and sister-in-law quit speaking to me.  I can think of a dozen actions/lack of actions on their part during my father's hopitalizations that would explain why I might be angry with them but honest to pete I'm missing what on this green earth I did that gave them both the mind to quit speaking to me.  I am certain that what ever it is, in their mind is more than obvious.  But this is but one of many primal pains that I live with in the here and now.  Don't even know how to let them all in and what to do with them when I experience them.

What I have noticed is that when people have called to ask how I am and I share one teeny, weeny pain or struggle the reaction is an explanation of why I shouldn't feel the pain or frustration.  Usually the immediate response it, "Just let it go."

Life is feeling not the intellectual.

I know you are right but how do you get into and through it.  How in the world do you get to another side without self-destructing?

When I said "I was looking for your approval and will not burden you with is". This was the childs words and knowlege.....My need for love.........in a small world... me and mom.... where the reality she denied in her feelings.......was that she felt like I was a burden. If she had acknowledged it she would not have projected her feelings on me and left me what she thought was wrong to acknowledge...the truth. I carried this reality when I was around women. wanting approval feeling like I was a burden. Even here intellectual understand is not enough the pain must be felt in order to feel.

I completely get this.  I completely get how my two year old self lives on in my body today and needs two year old things from even strangers on the street.  I even see that when we meet people who actually might give us what we need in that regard we spurn them b/c we are looking for that need from someone who has the same dismissive attitude that "mother" or "father" held as though the only action of value is getting what is needed from someone similarly wounded as "mother" or "father" and that is part of the reason we continue to repeat and repeat that very same wounding through out life.  But you are describing a healing and I am trying to hear what you are saying.  Not quite getting it - believing you but not yet understanding how.

[ann3]

Hi GS,
I'm gonna jump in here:

"How in the world do you get to another side without self-destructing?"

How are you defining "self-destructing?"  In view of what you've been thru, it's OK to fall apart for a while.  Maybe when your son is in school, you can take the time to scream, hit a pillow with a baseball bat, cry for an hour or 2, veg out in front of the TV, what ever you feel like doing or not doing.  Just feel what you feel & don't think about what you feel.  Don't question what you're feeling, just feel.  In a few months, you can look back & say "ah ha! that's what I was feeling!"

"And moreover, I haven't a clue of what to do with those feelings."
Just feel the feelings & don't worry about what to do with them.  Just feel, just be; just be a human being, not a human doing.

Post mortem is a really, really difficult time, esply in view of how the chips have fallen.  After my NM died, I avoided speaking to people because many don't know what to say & it irked me to hear their Hallmark Card b*llshit.   I felt the most safe in therapy sessions.  Other than that, I felt like crap.  And it takes time to adjust to the new reality.

A therapist friend of mine told me that when an N parent dies, the adult child has a "complicated grief" full of regret, anger, guilt & sadness.  That describes how I felt.

Is there one activity you can find that brings you moments of inner peace?  Taking warm bubble baths was my salvation.

Hope that helps a bit.

[sKePTiKal]

Yep... I'm with Ann on just feeling the feelings. Sometimes remembering brings the feelings on...

and my current theory on feelings (you knew I had one, right? LOL...) is that IF we just feel them and "let them be what they are"... they only last so long. The more practice I got at just feeling... the shorter duration and less overwhelming the more toxic feelings were.

And then, like a snippet of paper set on fire - the feeling just burnt itself out - it was gone. For me, that's "letting go"...
letting myself go into the feelings until it dissapates. Afterward, you feel empty - like a detox treatment - empty, but CLEAN and freshly ironed... like spring.

[Hopalong]

Me too, GS:

I completely get how my two year old self lives on in my body today and needs two year old things from even strangers on the street.  I even see that when we meet people who actually might give us what we need in that regard we spurn them b/c we are looking for that need from someone who has the same dismissive attitude

lives on in my body today and wants two year old things from even strangers on the street. 

Wanting is the two-year-old, the defining what is need vs. want is the woman GS.

I know you're able to sort out the difference. Maybe in a way, now that one object of your yearning is forever out of reach, your choice will be to comfort your own inner two-year-old. Comfort doesn't mean only letting her sob until she breaks in two and believes anguish is the only truth in the world...it means gentle touches, little acts of love and reassurance, picking up her space, feeding her fresh whole nourishing things, taking her for a walk in between bouts of tears. There may even be something to dig up, soon, for a planter...

Kindness. For you and for M.

Forsythia's budding up here. I'm going to cut some and bring it indoors to force it the rest of the way.

I have faith in you.

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hey sweetie... how's it going?

I've been thinking about ya and I'm hoping that the clarity and breakthroughs and progress you were making are still all right around you; still accessible to you even with the the additional crap you have to deal with now. I think it's important to guard all that progress even in the midst of new difficulty... and it's also important to recognize, that we're just ordinary humans...

we feel defeated sometimes
we feel like the deck is stacked against us and ask "why me, god?"

But it's good to remember that those feelings are temporary... and also how to give them the space and time they need, to be able to move on to other feelings.

Sending you a big hug...

[James]

Hi GS............At times I feel overwhelmed too. "you're wondering what "thing", what "action" what anything is the reason my brother and sister-in-law quit speaking to me. It sounds like you are trying to say you FEEL hurt/rejected?

When you try to share some of your pain you are met with "just let it go"..........are you trying to say it hurts when people do not hear me?

"how in the world do you get to the other side without self destructing"..............are you trying to say you are afraid?

It helps me to identify what I'm feeling and then let myself feel it. It helps a lot.. My agony seems to come from not being allowed to feel what I am really feeling. 


Jim

[sKePTiKal]

:: waving ::

HI! I was wondering how it's going with you...

[Gaining Strength]

PR

I made up my mind a long time ago, that I wouldn't satisfy that "why can't can't you just be pleasant and sociable" expectation,

How did you do that?  What did it look like?  Can you remember an example?  I would like to do this but I don't really know how???

James

You will feel it in your body not your brain. The brain can be burned, cut it feels nothing unlike the body. In this way fear and pain are are dissvolving in my own life.  Side note..........When I said "I was looking for your approval and will not burden you with is". This was the childs words and knowlege.....My need for love.........in a small world... me and mom.... where the reality she denied in her feelings.......was that she felt like I was a burden. If she had acknowledged it she would not have projected her feelings on me and left me what she thought was wrong to acknowledge...the truth. I carried this reality when I was around women. wanting approval feeling like I was a burden. Even here intellectual understand is not enough the pain must be felt in order to feel.

I have read writings that describe what you describe here.  it makes sense to me.  I believe you but I have no idea how to get there myself.  About your writing above concerning the child's words about need for love - I completely understand that and am often aware of how that plays out in my life.  Being aware and becoming aware more frequently is necessary and very helpful.  I completely get how "intellectual" doesn't do what "feeling" does.

Ann3

Post mortem is a really, really difficult time, esply in view of how the chips have fallen.  After my NM died, I avoided speaking to people because many don't know what to say & it irked me to hear their Hallmark Card b*llshit.   I felt the most safe in therapy sessions.  Other than that, I felt like crap.  And it takes time to adjust to the new reality.

I am laughing with recognition, especially over "Hallmark Card b*llshit."  Thank you.  that really connected.

A therapist friend of mine told me that when an N parent dies, the adult child has a "complicated grief" full of regret, anger, guilt & sadness.

Thank you.  Very helpful.  What I don't feel is "loss." and that feels weird, sort of like something is wrong with me.  Not because anyone says so, not because I don't know better and yet to not feel loss when my father dies is ... so many things - so many empty, "different", marginalized things.

PR

and my current theory on feelings (you knew I had one, right? LOL...)

Ha, ha, ha, ha - yeah - I did and thank goodness you do!!!!!

is that IF we just feel them and "let them be what they are"... they only last so long. The more practice I got at just feeling... the shorter duration and less overwhelming the more toxic feelings were.

I'm getting it.  James was saying the same thing, and Ann3 and you.  Hearing it in different ways, even though it is not new, is helping it to begin to break through.

Here is the rub.  Often when I am feeling these things either I am not alone or being out in public something happens to provoke or trigger them and the emotions I (with emphasis) feel are ones that society frowns upon and so it starts this repetition of feeling, acting, consequences that always results in me being marginalized or not experienced favorably.  So I usually just stuff it and get irritated, aggrevated, impatient, frustrated, dah da dah da dah and so on.

Hops

Forsythia's budding up here. I'm going to cut some and bring it indoors to force it the rest of the way.

Here too and jonquils and other flowering trees.  Good idea.  Monday I hired a woman off the street to help me and my son clean his room.  Tuesday 4 women came to help me clean one area of my house.  They are coming again next Tues.  Embarrassing? yes A blessing?  yes.

PR

we feel like the deck is stacked against us

I really do PR.  I do feel like the deck is stacked.
I would only admit that here.
It is one of the questions on some psychological evaluation that prove you've got some psychological disorder.
But isn't that deck stacked against children of Ns.  It looks that way to me.  Not that all such children come out damaged in the same way.  My brothers and I each fared very differently.  but I do feel that the deck is stacked - not impossible but stacked none the less.

But it's good to remember that those feelings are temporary... and also how to give them the space and time they need, to be able to move on to other feelings.

Good advice, very good.

[Gaining Strength]

It's like one thing starts it all and then there is an avalanche.

Late last week a tooth ache started.  Made a dental appointment.  Thursday afternoon - in severe pain, went to  bed.  Same thing most of Friday.  saturday - OK - took child to a cub scout campout/competition.  That night the pain was excruciating - had to drive myself 1/2 hour into town to ER.  Back by 6:30 am when everyone getting up.  Learned later that day the the 3 other boys in the den all slept in the same tent - every other child except my child.  when I mentioned it to the den leader he just blew it off.  I feel like I am fighting the world to get my child accepted.  So clear I will never be.  Got to dentist yesterday.  the afflicting tooth was one of my wisdom teeth - she pulled it - much better now  - but very tired and hungry - hadn't eaten since I went to the hospital.  Then I had a bizarre experience last night that takes far too much writing to explain but what I got out of it was that the people I was dealing with were looking at the situation from one perspective (not mine) and I was approaching it from another on top of feeling very, very beaten up and marginalized and a-l-o-n-e.  Recognizing this perspective thing is helpful in understanding but it was not helpful in getting through the experience.  I am so worn down that I don't have much cushion.  I really need some cushion because my nerves are raw and feeling very exposed.

[Hopalong]

Oh, GS.
I'm so sorry about the tooth.

I really know what you mean about the avalanche-cascade-streamcreekriverocean of hard things...

These times are really, really HARD.

I am sending you a lot of love and strength.

It's ox-mode time. Just stepping.

love to you and NO you're not weird that you don't feel grief for your crazy abusive unstable unpredictable and witholding father, imo...

And I'm totally with you about enduring the embarrassment to get HELP with your house. So delighted to hear you've made that choice.

xxoo
Hops