Voicelessness or ???

[ann3]

CB's contribution is worth re-reading a couple more times... it started this avalanche of ideas falling together into some kind of coherency.

CB's contributions are always worth re-reading.  CB is a very wise woman.  I have learned a lot from her & I marvel at her journey:  such courage, grace & piercing perception.

[Gaining Strength]

As has been the case recently, my time is very limited but I simply wanted to drop in and say that reading from the beginning, your point:

The connection between the communication issue - the feelings of being insignificant, out of place, "not allowed" to express myself; or my feelings - the connection between that and the RULES, is where I'm going. It's been another splinter festering, for a while.

is so similar to what I have been writing about most recently.  Trying to get perspective from the outside in - so difficult.  Why is my perspective so difficult to convey to others????  
Exhausting. Frustraiting.  Isolating.

So..... what I think all this was about, is the residual toxicity of the radioactive waste of toxic shame. And how that was actually involved in a doublebind, for me. The old, not accepted "the way I am" feeling, being targeted in the FOO... twisting myself all up to at least find a "useful" place there... and therefore, being "different" from other people, when away from those idiotic RULES... and therefore again - having the basic anxiety of worrying about what the RULES are, in places where the kind of abuse I had to accept as "normal", do not exist.

I live this.  The more stressed I am the more I feel caught in the vortex of it without relief.  Less stress, less aware of the stuff you are describing.  When maxed on stress - it is ALL I can see, feel, be.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi GS...

I so feel for you and what you've been going through - your dad & all that PLUS where you are with the inner work. It's just SOOO much all at one time. But you're really handling it pretty well, I want you to know that's what I'm seeing in what you've posted about it, so far. I hope that's helping build an inner sense of confidence - I have been "hearing" it between the lines of some of your posts... but I do know when life is crazy-busy sometimes we ourselves, don't take notice of those kinds of changes in ourselves. S'OK too! There's only so much "us" to go around, isn't there? Only so much time...

You & I have from time to time "paralleled" or overlapped on the same topic; the same points of work... and been able to help push each other along. I have so benefited from your way of describing what you're dealing with; how you understand it and I hope I've helped you too. I almost actually started to just post on your dismissiveness thread... to join both our points of view on this... but I sensed that it might only have muddled or confused the clarity of what you were saying - so I brought my "stuff" over here. And actually, this thread derived from a conversation over on Lighter's thread - and something I tripped on over there that I'd been avoiding looking at in 3-D...  anyway, I felt like I'd be in your way and that this was a big topic for you. I wanted you to have your space and soapbox, to hear what you have to say... and we could go back to comparing notes, later! 

One thing I struggle with - and that hubs has been working with me to get through (hence, his involvement in "styling" my communications sometimes) is that those old relationships... the old FOO stuff... is so subtly interwoven internally... that I often don't notice that I'm expressing myself always from a negative angle; hell - I even can SOUND like my mother; freaks my girls out! (They've been given explicit permission to always point out to me when I do that.) When that negative lens and soundtrack was operating a lot more of the time than now... I really didn't notice how I sounded - verbally or in print. Well - my excuse for that is simply that this is how everything was expressed in my FOO. Positive expressions could even be dangerous emotionally - in that one would be humiliated or shamed for being so "stupid". Put downs... for seeing blue sky and sunshine... and drinking it in and revelling in it.

SIGH. So of course I learned to put myself down for anything hopeful or positive... and in an attempt to be taken more "seriously" - heard - I learned to communicate always from that more negative or cold, hard rational place... once I started really hearing "Twiggy"... and her emotions (the old inner child work) I started to see beyond the Mr. Spock mask... and since negative was so familiar, I was able to dive into the loss, grief, and pain... and on the other side found the carefully hidden away positive, optimistic, happy-silly part of me. I started to work on expressing myself in a more balanced way - not avoiding the negative things in my expression, but adding more & more positives. And I felt completely uncomfortable, unsure of myself and self-conscious doing so. I had given hubs the permission to help me learn how to do this... and over time, as my confidence grew and it didn't feel so unfamiliar... I needed him to help me with this, less & less.

I guess it wasn't until just recently that I noticed - hey, I can do this all by myself and don't need an editor. It's unfortunate that I expressed it via resentment for his voluntary assistance - I've already apologized - neither of us realized that he could "stand down" from that role... but now that he has, the constant ouch of that splinter in our communication with each other seems to be going away, too. And I feel more heard - like he's able to sense my emotions in/through what I'm saying better than before - too. I'm keeping my fingers crossed - waiting to see how long this lasts! 

--------------------------------

Guest: I too have a small inner circle of people... but that's been an involuntary choice. For so long, I felt so uncomfortable in large groups of people... so overwhelmed from a sensory perspective... that I would just shrink in, and smaller, until eventually I'd have to flee and get some air. Now, I have boundaries that help me hold my own in those situations... I realize that I was trying so hard to control - or if not control, "know" everything that was going on around me... to feel safe and relaxed. Going to Walmart used to be like going into battle for me... and now hear I am dining with, swilling beers with - doctors, lawyers, businessmen, bankers and the southern debutante crowd and of course, part of me felt anticipation of another kind of battle... a rowdy art school grad, who can hold her own in biker bars, and has broken up her share of bar fights? In that setting?

Well, that description of me is only a partial one. It's not a fair comparison... because of all the OTHER things I've done and been successfully... that put me on a more peer footing with these folk (who are NOT their jobs or their bank balance... they are people with stories, too; sometimes like mine - but always interesting). It was just the old "mom in my head" tapes running again about "those people"....

I'd like to add to or at least keep the current members of my inner circle... but where I need to work the most, is in populating the circles that are a little further out. People that may never ever hear about Twiggy... but that might be interested in just shopping or having lunch or kayaking together. Making connections of friends of friends... finding things to do with people who are NOT my hubs! (and finding him a fishing or golfing buddy...). And to do that - I've got to be able to stop the instant excuse that springs to my lips every single time I'm invited to do anything... "I'm not sure I have time"... sigh. That's just a rationalization; an excuse for the reality that I'm a little in awe and a little scared and little self-conscious - and even a little afraid that I won't like x person... and what do I do then??? hahahahahaa! Like they're gonna be as awful as the bioNic mom...

[Gaining Strength]

that I often don't notice that I'm expressing myself always from a negative angle;

I so clearly know what you mean.  I am very grateful that your husband is participating with you in sorting it out.  That must be quite a gift.  I find myself doing that as well but unable to get that perspective from the outside.  I do find that with certain people I am able to confirm my perceptions.  Right now I have the great gift of having one of the few people whose perspective I trust working as a sitter with my father.  The other day at the hospital I thought a nurse was being rude and difficult, but I knew that I was frustrated and irritated and that my perspective might be out of kilter so I asked Lo and she confirmed my perception.  It was such an insignificant issue but the experience was manna from heaven.

{didn't read past this part of your post - got to get to hospital - so, so thankful for your presence here.  I learn so much from your work and you are one from whom I gain insight and perspective.  How odd that it can happen in these parallel universes; that it does not necessitate shared space, time or even experience.  How very odd.  But great thanksgiving from this corner of the world.}

[sKePTiKal]

hahahahahahahaha! I know, Guest, I know...

and even though I still agree with you about the difference in those kinds of connections (always preferring the serious ones) I'm getting the idea that I might just be missing some plain ole' fun by not indulging in the "superficial" connections, more than I have in the past. I have a LOT to get past that lives in my head, before I'll get to that point, probably.

Hidden well below my intellectual, pondering brain... the one who wants to be "taken seriously"... and who thinks her importance in this life can only be granted by others who do take her seriously...

... is the girl who wants to try to FINALLY figure out how to apply eye shadow on her hooded eyelids... (even tho by now, at this age, who the hell cares???)

... the same girl who wants to flash her pretty painted nails under her mom's nose and say HA! see? I can grow my nails long and keep them nice... so sorry 'bout yours...

... the same girl who will try on any style of clothing because "it's pretty"... only to laugh out loud at the reflection in the mirror that's more "oompa-loompa" than sophistocated... and then run out & show the salespeople how silly it looks!

There's a type of fatigue that sets in... always being serious, always doing the "right" thing - and agonizing for months over what the "right thing" is... always taking each day as if it really matters how I spend each hour, minute... if I should exercise or eat less to lose weight... or if I should reach out to the family member who confided her marriage is on the rocks and hasn't told anyone else yet... or should I write my congressman and weigh in on an important decision... or what kind of retirement plan I should establish for our company.

And the funny thing is - your two descriptions of people? I'm seeing both sides in the same people. Or at least, I'm sensing it's there... in a few cases, I know for a fact. Yes, men shop & "do lunch" - though it's usually more at a sports bar or on a golf course; my hubby is absolutely tireless as a shopper (and one of the worst gossips I know), and I'm the one begging to "go home now". I only have a limited attention span for shopping; after awhile it all looks the same to me.... I don't need it, therefore I don't want it. MOST of the time.

And the thing is - I've denied myself or been denied this kind of silly, non-important stuff in my life. For all the usual reasons... and who knows? Maybe it is fun... I can't really say until I try it.

Yes, life is short - so why not enjoy some of it? Somehow, I can see St. Peter saying - what? you wasted all your time trying to solve the problems of life & politics & the world??? And you thought I had a prize for you, because of that??? Here - have a lollipop and go play.... you're a silly thing.... and he'll pat me on the head and send me to the swings.

Balance, is what I think I'm looking for - not all one or the other.

[Hopalong]

Brings me joy to think of you designing, CB...

I am absolutely positive your creativity is not "gone" when you can't attend to it.

It's banked, glowing, ready for the breath that will help it flame again, when you are able to catch some air...

Just be kind to yourself. Just know that while you are plodding through this tough patch -- you know that absolutely everything changes.

This will too. And colors and flavors and joy and design will all still call you.

with love,

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Figured out the conundrum of the sibs... and hubs... and feeling "shut down" by him. It's really hubs' issue... not a real sensitivity of the sibs; it's just a convenient way for him to deflect responsibility for his own feelings. I'll figure out a way to move forward with him... it'll probably tax my patience, but it can be done. His eyes don't very often flash in anger - especially at me - so I know he's feeling some boundary violation... related to letting go the very concrete reminders of home, mom, his own past. It would help if I could get him to open up about his feelings, specifically... but he's keeping that pretty private right now. Sometimes, it's just a matter of timing - he has helped me quite a bit without getting in my way or monitoring each and every move and how I'm executing it. I don't think he can predict exactly what will be "touchy" until we get there, either. Guess I'm gonna have to add more communication techniques to my "repertoire"... and maybe get creative about keeping him involved in the process; he agrees on the outcome we're working toward... it's just the process he's having trouble with... and I'm the bad guy for just going ahead and getting it done. There's a lot of symbolism - and emotional reality - involved in the process. For both of us. For me, I'm continuing to "tend to" MIL... she knew that this work would fall mostly to me. For hubs, he packed most of the stuff to bring here, for her... that we're now packing to donate, if no one claims it. Less than a year ago. I can see why he's touchy...

Guest - I'm one of those people who don't know how to have fun. I lost the knack for this somewhere along the way of being too serious - and wanting to be taken seriously. Art (even after getting two degrees and actually selling work)... became so "not fun" for me, precisely because my "policeman" isn't telling me I have to go have fun... but because he's criticizing, demeaning, and putting me down and upping the bar on the definition of success and even fun... I used to be killer at backgammon; baseball; volleyball and cards... I haven't played in almost 30 years. MIL did persuade me to play cards with her... and I noticed how much I looked forward to this (I sold my policeman the idea that I was just playing to keep her engaged... right? It wasn't 'coz I liked this... nooooo)... even though I didn't win. Both MIL & hubs gave me grief over the way I played my cards... because statistically I was insuring I wouldn't win... and when I did, I kinda had the last laugh. (I didn't win very much, tho).

Oh, sure... my study of neuroscience gets added to the serious kind of fun column. My reading to keep up with current events. My "by the seat of my pants" self-education in running a business, financial stuff and legal stuff. Yeah - I can do that kind of fun. But something that simply "feels good" - like being with people, relaxed and enjoying myself? simple PLAY? Mr. Cop jumps up and says no, no, no... what do you think you're doing? This isn't going to be pretty; you're not like them.... they won't like you... and ... and... and...

Hubs has been trying to get me to "play" for 10 years. My T tried to get me to play. I "played" a bit with tai chi and push hands... but mostly I turned it into another serious study. My dog tries to get me to play... and sometimes I oblige him; it's just "another thing I gotta do... play with the dog".

Truly. I think the whole idea of FUN has been ruined by having FUN defined by the RULES. There was acceptable fun... you know - what Momster thought was fun. And too many things that were unacceptable.... one didn't even DARE think of engaging in those for fear of drawing the Momster's attention - which was always stop that, don't do that, how could you do this to me???? Simple innocent enjoyable fun simply didn't exist - and where it appeared to exist, was equated with being dangerous.

SIGH. Yes, Guest... when it comes to girly things and my mom; yes there's still some vindictiveness. She dressed me like a boy from the time I walked... taught me all kinds of guy-stuff... and that it was "normal" to not have girl friends (because - she said - they'd never like and would always be jealous of me) and to compete with boys and be a tom-boy just like her... and when I asked for a specific dress one time, it caused a huge argument between my mom & dad... because she said I didn't need a dress. I absorbed all the "girly" stuff I could from the neighbor who mothered me... and guess who was jealous about that relationship??? Ruth couldn't understand how I could be so serious at 10, 11... that I'd never played this game or that... had never had a birthday party... never been taught any of the stuff that a girl that age needed to know as she matured. Thanks to Ruth, I did know. Thanks to Ruth, I made friends at school - girls and boys - and learned to laugh.

And Ruth nurtured my creativity... she saw it was an outlet for expression that I might be "permitted"... something that might not threaten the momster; well - she was wrong - but it was inconceivable to her that someone could be like that. The same kind of innocent disbelief my MIL had about "people like that".

What Hops said about creativity being banked - it's true - and in my case, it's relevant here to mention that it might also come with compounded "interest". It's not just saved for the next opportunity... it's growing. And just like unexpressed anger - unexpressed creativity is starting to leak out, run over the edge, splash out here and there... and it's manifesting as "FUN"... in all these girly ways... and I'm think I can finally fulfill one of my promises to myself - made when I burnt the last canvas I'd painted... to be able to change my palette of colors from the deep violet, blue and crimson shades... to something infinitely brighter. And I've found a source for custom-cut foam, that I can cover for banquette cushions in my kitchen... and this year I'm planting canna lillies for more color in the landscaping... and I'm growing my hair out again - but this time, I'm still keeping it styled; the new guy I'm going to is a wizard with hair... and he's fun to talk to, too...

and.....

I wonder how far I can drop-kick that policeman on my shoulder?

[sKePTiKal]

almost forgot... the policeman always, always puts conditions on fun.... you can have fun WHEN or IF... and then sets the bar so impossibly high - or adds in something that's never completely done (like cleaning the whole house so it's TV show perfect)...

this kind of "conditional thinking" is right up there with rationalizations (excuses)... for being completely un-useful and old programming code. And I know where it comes from - the old external "controls"... and the promise of a trade... IF you do x, y, & z... then I'll love you - hear you - see that you're not me.... sigh.

And one new thing - that goes under the attachment issue - is attunement. It's connected to the communication issues... I'm pretty sure.

[sKePTiKal]

So..... attunement:

in those first bonding days... when a mom soothes an infant with caresses, food, eye contact and holding and warmth... movement, like rocking... and the little eyes start to close, and muscles relax... safe...

later - when a mom knows whether "that cry" means hungry, wet, cold, or scared - or angry...

later still - when two people instantaneously have the same idea at the same time; being on the same wavelength; empathy... irrepressible giggles...

... maybe even the "recognition" feeling I had, reading CB's reply... that "WOW"... it was absolutely right; dead on... she "knew" what I was trying to describe and could say it... while I was still grasping for the words that "fit"...

So, maybe... attunement is the result; what is produced in the Mirroring/Marking interaction... of that primary attachment. That sense of connection, understanding, being "together" in the connection and understanding of each other.... the essence of being "heard"... the "thou" of "I and Thou".

In push-hands practice, in tai chi... it's called "listening energy". With practice, it's possible to "know" - i.e, predict - when and where one's partner will make an offensive move. There are physical cues... tension in that muscle, a look in the eyes... but the other cues aren't physical. The usual explanation is that it's possible to sense the chi building energy prior to making the move... but I have experienced this "knowing" before even the idea to make the move enters the awareness of partner. I don't know what that is.... but it seems a lot like attunement.

[aside: push hands practice is wonderful as a way to understand the intricacies of boundaries... and to develop non-aggressive assertiveness]

It has occurred to me, that a lot of the difficulties I've noted in this topic could be related to an "awakening" awareness that I'm craving - have a need for - attunement. Because of my programming to "protect the sick one at the center" - even from my own needs... because of the policeman on my shoulder enforcing [read: controlling] that kind of one-way connectedness... in those ways, I have learned NOT to seek out, ask for, attunement. I "understand" attunement to always be a situation where I must adjust & translate - learn the other's language of attunement - change, censor, edit, "correct" myself - to connect with someone else. Where I am the one mirroring... marking... creating "attunement" for someone else.

And the timing of this awakening makes sense... because MIL is no longer here; she did this for me "enough"... even though I wasn't "asking" (I didn't know I needed...). So where do I go "seeking".... right back here... uh-huh. You guys all certainly "get it".

It makes sense that a lot of my discomfort circles around hubs... and his piles of magazines and paper... early on in the relationship, he flat out stated that all he wanted was to feel "comfortable" in a relationship... and it's plain as day, that he feels comfortable with all his "stuff" strewn every which way... where he left it. And my failure so far... to get him to understand how uncomfortable this causes me to feel... is because I feel like I'm living with my mother (the ultimate packrat hoarder of junk)... who didn't ever give a rat's how I felt - as long as she was made comfortable. Translated: attune to me... I don't have to attune to you.

I've let him get away with that.

"Play" - in all it's forms - requires as a prerequisite... MUTUAL attunement.

More later - I had a dream about the policeman, too. This is only now beginning to settle around me.

[sKePTiKal]

It's OK, Guest! Of course we've talked about this... of course I've told him this is how I feel... for 10 years. (He & I don't try to do much "mind-reading"...) We even talked about it yesterday, right after I posted. His "stuff" was the topic of our very first argument.

He even said, I'll deal with some of my piles yesterday. Did he? uh-uh... does he even realize it yet? that would also be no... because I haven't brought it up again. I am absolutely bored and tired of playing this game... and I am close to the point, where I'm not even going to worry about making him angry... I'm going to do what needs to be done and let him know why. Again.

But really - this is only a repetition; a now-manifestation - of "old stuff". Stuff I'm trying to work through... via the opportunities of current events and situations. So I tend to bounce back & forth... from as objective & philosophical a level as I can attain... to connecting present with past... to seeing the pattern of past in present... and finding out where the "switch" is... to change it.

Hubs knows all of this. I don't think he wants to make our relationship all about his "stuff"... but he has and it's time for him to hear that... I know how I've cooperated... made it possible...

... but just like any "game"... it's hard to "play" if you don't say what you WANT, instead. And I still need to do that.

This thread isn't supposed to be about hubs and this one thing that drives me mad... but it's a very apt symbol... something concrete in "real life" that goes right to the heart of where I'm trying to "work"... even though y'all may not be able to see that yet, with all my carping on hubs (we will get to a new compromise)... I don't mean to confuse you...

[sKePTiKal]

The struggle with hubs over his "stuff" is a symptom. My feelings about it in the present...

... come from trying to resolve, sort out, get past, let go... feelings from the past. From that other relationship - with bioNicMom. I'm not sure that it's possible - in this case - to resolve the old stuff... through finding a solution to the present discomfort.

For one thing - hubs is NOT my mom. I don't think he could stand being in the same room with her - and he's only met her once. My relationship with him isn't like that either - EXCEPT for the bits of me that are replaying old crap... trying to shed old crap. That said; clear and direct communication about this, isn't getting me any closer to the result I want. But what I haven't said (CB's point) is WHY I want it... I've tried to say this... but it's incoherent still. I don't really know why it's such a big friggin deal for me, in other words. The connections... and yes, attunement is a big huge part of this... are beginning to come up now.

It's not sufficient to simply say... the piles of clutter make me anxious; make me feel suffocated; appear to accuse me with their presence of being lazy - and the neglected to-do list... while I selfishly attempt to engage with people and feel some connection - mutual caring, play, attunement. It's not sufficient for ME, as an answer. It's just STUFF, right? So get a shovel... and when I was tuned into Twiggy's story... as it poured out and I "further processed" it... the house stuff simply didn't register for me; I didn't care about cleaning until the dog hair changed the color of the carpet, you know?

My OCD issue with the STUFF right now... is that it's another symbol for something emotional, again. Like smoking, for those who remember that line of thought... the rationalizations, the reactions, the power struggle even... self-soothing; self-validation; and yes, attunement... I tell hubs - and remind myself - there are much worse things than his stuff and a cluttered house.

Sometimes, things just fall out of my mouth - my brain doesn't think it first, and I don't intend to "say" such & such... and yesterday, talking with hubs about the stuff-piles - I said "Can't I just make things pretty?" "Have a pretty house?" Sounds really superficial seeing it in words on the screen... but it's not. The Penn Dutch side of me has fun, enjoys "making pretty". It's play for me. I set up still-lifes all through the house - and rearrange them - until I find a grouping or placement that's "just right". Drives hubs crazy - because I "move" things all the time and he can't find what he needs. Underlying all that is simply: I WANT... and wanting what I want, to matter enough to him. Attunement. Come to Amber's world... play with me. I'm tired of always adjusting to you... going to your world.

Along with that - up came some Twiggy-type memories this morning. My mom insisted - forced - policed how clean and neat my room was. Later, that expanded to the rest of the house (cinderella, here I am)... Barbie doll clothes couldn't just be shoved into the case... oh no! That's why she bought me the hangers - put all those little, teeny tiny things on the hangers and keep them nice. And yes - if I didn't - the shaming and punishment rained down... and I was a horrible child who didn't appreciate anything that I was given or was made for me... years later - I got immense satisfaction from giving away all those barbie clothes (yes, mother kept them and then paid to ship them to me when I was in my 40s and my kids were grown!! AFTER they would've enjoyed playing with them...). I gave them to a co-workers' little girl who lost all her toys in a house fire. They were toxic for me.

I can't quite find the connection between her draconian training of me to be the ultimate housekeeper - and her painfully obvious packrat, hoarding issues that she developed as time went on. Maybe it's simply one aspect of shifting responsibility... or the parentification role-reversal... and I'm not sure it's relevant. Maybe it is, too. Another memory surfaced - it's just a snippet - of us during that time when the "policeman on my shoulder" showed up the first time - and she was actively gaslighting me, kept me at home and didn't allow me to go to school, and indulged herself in 24/7 introjective projection.

Money was very scarce after my dad finally escaped the madness. Instead of going to the regular grocery store where prices were lower - mother's agoraphobia was running high - we were in one of the little mom & pop convenience type stores buying milk, bread, bologna. I can remember the lady owner asking mother what was wrong with her "little boy" (AGAIN she was insisting I dress like a boy; I wasn't "careful" enough to wear my dresses; I had to "save" those for social events we never had)... because I stood there with tears just streaming down my face - not blubbering, no - I knew better than to make a sound... and of course, I got shamed publicly for this, too. And verbally attacked later - for trying to make her look bad....     SIGH........

I cried a LOT like that for months.
-------------------------------

Hell is living with a parent who's mentally ill. Nothing quite approaches that for it's awfulness, it's confusion, the shame and humiliation. As if it's all my fault she was/is like this.... I heard that it WAS my fault enough times, even when I so needed some kind of normal emotional support - and my poor kid's brain just wanted all the agony to cease and to feel safe again - when I just wanted that connection I could see in the lady-store owner - concern, caring, kindness... i.e., attunement and soothing; protection and safety.

When all I wanted to be allowed to say - was - please rescue me from my mother! without shame.

I saw my dad for a few minutes before he left - after all the dreadful things I'd suffered through that day - and I begged him to take me with him. What did he tell me? You'll be better off with your mom. I really didn't understand what I did that was so bad that I deserved that fate... and at 12, one is positively helpless to anything constructive about it. Raped, shot at, then abandoned to life with my mother... like a life sentence... for WHAT? What did I do???

I couldn't tell ya. I don't know what I did to deserve parents like this... I kept the secrets, kept my "big mouth shut", got very creative with ways to cover up, whitewash, spin the reality of my FOO... even let my mother brainwash me about who I was... who my dad was... and did that sacrifice EVER get me the simple recognition of me - for who I really was; what I really felt; or the impossible to grant thing that I wanted? Just to have a normal family that I didn't have feel ashamed of?

Nope.

The force of that reality slamming into a 12 yr old's brain and heart was like being hit with a rocket. I might be able to pretend to other people... and even try lying to myself - denial - but there was simply no escaping the reality. The absolute and total LOSS.

And I guess I'm reminded of that now... still processing the loss of MIL; still trying to adjust to - accommodate - hubs' and his sibs' feelings of loss... while minimizing my own. There were no grand gestures from MIL - that proclaimed "I'm listening and I care"... and I never ever dumped it all out on her... I got the sense that I didn't have to. She saw pain and shame and knew exactly how to alleviate it. 'Course, this is a woman who lost the love of her life in her 40s - with a handful of a teenager (hubs) and two smaller children to raise... and she was more than capable of the challenge. And always, what she did and said came from a place of unconditional love... that was her reality and it was more than enough to share with anyone - even me.

This probably STILL isn't real coherent or brilliant or whatever - but this kind of babbling is how I process things... burrow right down into where that "burr under my saddle" is irritating me.... after HOURS of dancing of around it.... complaining about the burr under my saddle... this is still a recently "learned skill" for me and doesn't come all that naturally.

[sKePTiKal]

CB:

hubs is a people pleaser... hardly the thoughtless ogre I've made him sound. The magazines and papers that make up his "piles" are molehills - not mountains. I've never picked up a dirty sock - ever! He doesn't leave cups sitting around. I'm making a really huge deal out this (he is so good in so many other ways - can't I just overlook this one thing??) - because I wasn't respecting my own right to feel loss... and that circuits around underground... just below the skin... and then pops up in some triggered fashion like this.

It is odd that it is this one particular issue that "sticks" for me. It is odd also... that after all this time we haven't found a way to resolve it. I still need to work through the connection - figure out my role in all of this (I'm convinced I'm the partner in this co-dependent two-step) and then do something different. It's probably something really, really simple and I'm looking at all this complicated stuff - and missing it. As usual! LOL...

We've tried the separate space idea... doesn't work because of his need to share, he "gets lonely" if I'm off working alone and will come find me, and of course he has to print out paper of his latest fun find - or stuff he thinks I will like. Next thing I know... a pile is started! He's like a charming 6 yr old - I just can't kick him back across the boundary every single time. And I can't train him either... I almost don't even have to say a word - he sees me looking at a pile... and he starts to defend himself!

He promises that he'll go through the stacks... recycle stuff he doesn't need to keep (and that will go in a file cabinet - years now, he's been planning that)... and then OH LOOK - a heron! Did I tell about what I was looking at online this morning? Are we going out today? Wanna go to home depot with me? Wanna ride somewhere & get lunch? OH - I'm SORRY - I meant to do that today, didn't I? I was gonna empty the dishwasher - but you should'a heard Joe on Squawk Box this morning!

I admit - there are days when I'm like that too.

But when he asks me to do something - it's done before he remembers what he asked me and I don't just "forget"... or let my stuff spill over into his space... right now, his clean laundry will prevent him from getting into bed, until he puts it away. The reason I do things "right now" - is because I've learned to cope with my own distractable nature this way. Maybe I'm trying to teach him how to cope with it... beyond his perception of the necessity to "fix" it...

wouldn't surprise me.

[sKePTiKal]

I went back and read the first post on this thread again... I'm making myself dizzy with all the dancing around I'm doing... ignoring the elephant in the room ... and oh look! there's a fox on the dock!  sigh.

so... I was feeling like I couldn't invite people into "Amber's world"...
and that I was speaking in tongues when I talked, because I wasn't feeling "heard"...

and you all are giving me all kinds of really useful insights, advice... and I feel like I'm rejecting a lot of it; denying what is probably obvious to you... and I'm what? too stubborn to look at it? too embarrassed to look at it?

So here's my "question of the day" to look at, for me (y'all got better things to do)... can I define "Amber's World"? What am I talking about? If it's a question of attunement... why do I automatically - without question; without fail - immediately assume the role of "the adult in the room"... and is that REALLY what I want? (calling Pavlov again....) Am I making attempts to attune to others... and that gets in the way? or am I still that "closed off" and too scared to let anyone in... still...because I haven't answered the first question:

Define Amber's World. This might take awhile...
Thanks everyone.

[ann3]

"why do I automatically - without question; without fail - immediately assume the role of "the adult in the room"... and is that REALLY what I want? (calling Pavlov again....) Am I making attempts to attune to others... and that gets in the way? or am I still that "closed off" and too scared to let anyone in..."

Amber,
This is what I'm hearing you say:  you feel you're overly attuned to others, but not attuned enough to yourself & that you automatically assume the adult role.

IMO, one of the best ways to start examining this is to say:  In my FOO, I had to assume the role of the adult because it felt like there were no other adults, so I felt forced, compelled to take that role.  And, because as a child, I was conditioned (pavlov) to automatically assume the Adult role, I continue to automatically assume this role, even tho, at times, I do not want to do so.  As a child, I automatically assumed the Adult role as a means of protecting myself & surviving, but, now, I am an adult & so automatically assuming the Adult role now no longer serves my needs & it may indeed inhibit me from fulfilling my needs.  How can I break my conditioning?  

And, do I see that sometimes, I auto assume the Adult role as a means for control:  things feel chaotic, someone's gotta take charge so that there's some order.  When no one steps in to take charge, I assume the adult role in order to fill that void.

Next:  giving up some control & learning to tolerate icky, uncomfortable feelings:  what if I refuse to automatically assume the adult role?  Can I condition myself to feel it's OK if things are chaotic sometimes?   If I decide to not always, automatically to attune to other people, can I condition myself to feel OK about it?  Can I condition myself to sit & feel icky feelings which may come if I refuse to auto attune myself to others?

Also:  I'm tired of automatically assuming the Adult role because when I do so, I often do not get my needs met.  I'm not doing enough things that please me & instead am often doing things that please others.  I'm putting the needs of other over my needs.  Do I feel self-assured enough to shed some of my Adult role?    How can I balance pleasing myself & pleasing others?

John Bradshaw discusses the various roles kids take on in a FOO; he too took on the Adult role, as he was the 'little Man' of this FOO, his dad was absent & his mom was overwhelmed & helpless.  Bradshaw discusses implications of having the role of Adult foisted upon one as a kid & how it effects one later in life.

Amber, is this helpful or am I on the wrong track?

[sKePTiKal]

Yes, Ann - very helpful!

I know about those "icky feelings" - which ones you're talking about. For me - any deviation from the adult role in any situation... brings up those icky feelings. And somehow, I think this is the flip-side of the boundary issue I have - where I feel safest withdrawn and as small & unobtrusive & un-needy as I can be. Coming at the same thing from another direction...

Life and my own choices have been challenging that status quo... I'm asking "why not?" and the inner self is predicting doom, disaster, scandal....and being targeted. I don't have permission (from myself) to be anything other than the "responsible adult".

It's really odd - how with this kind of personal history - one frames so many things on old references... old contexts... and can turn even the nicest things into icky ones...

it IS possible to see hubs' stacks of magazines - and all our interactions about them - as a game - therefore PLAY...
instead of some sort of boundary issue; control issue...