Tiger Mother - Anyone read it?

[Ales2]

Has anyone read the book by Amy Chua? Its become quite a controversy. I want to read it but dont want to buy it. I will read what I can online and get it at the library when it arrives.

Dr. G - Have you read it? Do you have a professional opinion? Any chance you are writing an article about it?

From the articles and excerpts I've read, there is alot of emotional and verbal abuse in the book.  Chua sounds very narcissistic, although I wonder if it is the superficial kind, i.e not coming from the trauma and psychological damage of her own childhood.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

[Guest]

There was an article on her in the UK Guardian a couple of weeks ago. I didn't read it; she struck me as up herself, just scanning the page and seeing her photo.

[Lollie]

I saw her interview with Stephen Colbert the other night. (It's On Demand, if you have it.) She didn't seem monstrous or anything. She said she was quite surprised by all of the negative attention the book (and she) was getting because the book is a memoir and not a parenting manual. She also said it was partly her story about being raised by strict Chinese immigrant parents, and how that influenced the way she raised her daughters.

I'd have to read it myself before making any real judgments.

[Guest]

Culture probably plays the major part here. I read Oliver James's interviews and research in China and was struck by the differences (helped me understand just how differently we view 'what life is about'). He mentions it here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/16/amy-chua-strict-chinese-parenting
but also mentions "the epidemic of narcissism now afflicting the USA" (has he looked at his own country?). Can't remember which book of his I'm thinking of, but I do remember the differences in views about the 'individual' - what it means to be one, what makes a person, what life's goals are (top-scoring achievement, prosperity, public standing and reputation, looking after your parents, respect, fitting in with your social group). I remember finding the whole book worrying. What was it...ah yes, 'Affluenza' - reasonable pop psych book dressed up in a 'theme' to satisfy what publishers think the market will buy (and are probably right). I think he holds back from saying what he really thinks to earn a crust; or, he hasn't yet decided what he really thinks; or, he's keeping to some idea of what someone in his position is supposed to do; or he's too respectful of the elders in his profession; or he's stuck with speaking in his own profession's circle, albeit with a common touch. I get the feeling he wants to go further, but holds back. Interesting. Not that that has anything to do with the topic....*coughs* are there any nibbles over there...?

[sKePTiKal]

I devoured the article that started this whole uproar in the Wall St. Journal. I've read some of the comments about her - rebuttals from western moms and Ms. Chua's explanation of what context she wrote from. It was pretty much tongue in cheek, making fun of herself - and her parenting style... and she really didn't expect so much attention on this topic!

No, I don't think she's an N-mom. And while culture is a big part of how the book is presented... her viewpoint, even...

if you take the east-west element out of it and just look at some her descriptions of how/why she took such & such a position with her Ds... there are some very interesting things there. Maybe it's because I taught myself how to play piano with both hands, synchronously... and I so connected with the little girl who struggled to the same - it wasn't easy at all for me... but that story and her explanation of why she persisted struck me:

she said she believed in her daughter's ability to be able to play the song well... so she wasn't going to let her "give up". And sure enough... after days & hours & tears & throwing things... sure enough the little girl DID play it correctly...

To contrast with that - my mom pleaded with me to stop; constantly told me that I would "never get it right" and she couldn't understand why I played the same song over & over & over again. That, folks - is an Nmom. (I started to practice when she wasn't around.) I persisted in spite of her and eventually played Rimsky-Korsikoff in recital.

I think there's a difference between insisting on practicing the piano because you BELIEVE the kid is capable and you want them to develop that confidence in themselves... or to persist, just to please yourself... or to punish the kid for not getting it correct. I think, that if after months and years, the kid still couldn't play the piano piece correctly... instead of blaming the kid, the mom would've blamed herself.

And chinese parents aren't the only ones who believe that video games, tv, and movies are bad for kids...
Ms. Chua also admits that she's modified her beliefs about parenting some, too...

I think there's something to be said for both cultures of parenting and we can probably learn a little from each other. I think maybe Ms. Chua was trying to say that, too.

[seastorm]

I think there are cultural norms for parenting that vary from country to country. Alice Miller has explored this extensively. She explains that parenting with insensitivity to the understanding of child development and childrens needs for connection and love resulted in a nation that emerged as Hitler's Germany and was capable of detaching to the point where they exterminated innocent people.

I would agree that Chinese parents have very different values but probably ( hopefully) not all of them act like stern automatons. The Chinese population in many ways still behave as if they are still feudal serfs. No wonder given the oppressive history. Hence the desperate desire to have their children survive. Given Maslows hierarchy of needs, they are still at the survival level. In countries that are traditionally more democratic and economically thriving parenting seems to be much more benevolent and the individual needs of children are appreciated and valued.

I haven't read the book but I think it is great that it got people thinking and talking about parenting. The author has brought up a subject that has strange taboos and she is the lightning rod for the reaction. The book seems to be a report on child abuse without insight into the subject or resolution of how it needs to be different.  At least, she is finding her voice.  I wonder what will come next.

Sea storm

[sKePTiKal]

Sea - I agree with you that it's a good thing to make parenting a popular topic! There are a lot of viewpoints that would make for a really interesing discussion... and parenting is SOOO important, as we all know.

Even in western culture, the idea of a sacred childhood, is relatively recent... "children" were necessary as a labor force, when our country/economy was mostly agricultural. I guess that's why my Grandma was the oldest of 10 children, you know? And the Amish/Mennonite families still tend to have larger families. Can you imagine being mom to 10 kids? That's like a day-care center!

And the current "norm"... of keeping teenagers "children"... or of them remaining dependent has extended into, at the very least, the 20's... (I know there's something very "wrong" with this, but I've not quite defined it... higher ed is partly involved.) From the education angle, I'd love to see the "grades" condensed and accelerated... so that 16 yr olds are graduating high school... but then, instead of sending them right to college - where their every need is provided for again - have a new (old) "system" where they apprentice out in the "real world" for real wages (maybe a separate pay scale while learning a skill or providing service - because they still live with mom & dad) and they begin to learn those subtle life lessons that constitute "maturity" BEFORE they begin their higher education careers. It would help them a lot, I believe. It would also help higher ed figure out how to balance their mission and their bottom lines... (that's another rant...)

At the same time we keep kids dependent on families/parents - we also force them into isolation ("go do your homework")... or by virtue of economic necessity - neglect their attention-needs. I'm thinking latch-key kids. Home school kids have some of the same issues, too, I've noticed - and some additional ones. The "problem" young folk I've been involved, with all have issues of discipline, self-control, entitlement, organization, and feeling like they - and what & who they are - matter. I've seen this same problem across cultures (our school was at least 10% foreign students - from all over the world) and across socio-economic levels.

(I don't think the "self-esteem" movement - especially as implemented in education - has been very successful... because if a kid never makes a mistake; never fails... it just logically follows that they don't succeed - or know the difference between success/failure... our whole society seems to think that "failure is not an option" and that it's the same as permanent "losing"... whatever happened to "learning from one's mistakes?"... some of the greatest inventions came from "mistakes" (not to mention art... music... etc.)

Maybe I'm just old & cranky this morning! I sure don't think I have the single "right answer" to how to raise kids... but I have thought about it a lot... including wishing I'd done things a bit differently or not done some things...

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Ales2,

I haven’t read the book.  But I’m glad the author is not talking about her method as a general handbook of parenting.  The method may have “worked” (more on this later) with her kids, but if you randomly assigned babies for her to mother, the method might have been a disaster.  Remember, genetics counts for 50% of how kids “turn out”.  Her kids were likely genetically gifted and compliant enough to achieve “results”.   What if they weren’t?  I doubt she would have written a book!  Parents simply don’t have the amount of control over their kids to shape them into whatever they want them to be.

Second, what should parents aim for?  This mother had her own particular view of what an ideal adult life looks like.  But, of course, I know plenty of people who are extremely high achievers who are very unhappy with their lives, in part because their quest for professional success precluded or took the place of satisfying intimate relationships—or because their preoccupation with perfection made it impossible to deal with flaws in themselves or others.

Thirdly, I know very successful people who achieved their work life dreams through untraditional routes—and were not pushed at all by their parents.  (Once again, I think genetics plays a large role in this.)

In sum, I think this is a book about a particular mother and particular children.  Little can be drawn from the book (at least what I know of it) about the “best” way to parent.

Richard

[Meh]

I haven't read the book, I've seen a brief news television show interview the mother.

Without reading the book, my understanding is that the mother is overstrict. I don't think I would necessarily consider that to be as bad as Narcissism. I think a parent who is over strict at least cares about the children's ability to compete in the world and that is useful and pragmatic on some level.

I think I would have preferred an uptight, intelligent extremely disciplined parenting style over my own mother.

Even if the mother is controlling and demanding I heard her say that she didn't want to lose her daughter by being over-bearing- but maybe she was just saying that for the benefit of TV.

I wish my parents had been over-bearing and had forced me to play musical instruments etc.

[Gaining Strength]

Richard - thank y9ou for that post.  Your remarks clarify my own reaction to what the interview I heard on The Diane Rehm Show. It was sort of crazy - in one breath she would make a statement and then in the next she would retract her statements.  I certainly know her tactics would not work with my wee one. (not that mine do.)

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi GS,

I'm glad my comments were helpful--and best wishes to you (I've been following your "Dismissiveness" thread).

Richard

[Ales2]

Thanks everyone for the input.

Dr. G. I agree with what you said - especially about some high achievers with unsatisfying relationships.  Interesting that you include genetics - I thought that would only apply to at-birth learning disabilities, not the ones leaned from negative environments.

Thanks!