charN

[Hopalong]

Bones' thread with the Ali anecdote made me think about starting this one.

I've often heard--and used--the term "charm" or "charming" as an epithet when describing Nism.

How to tell the difference between manipulative creepy charm and real grace? I mean, my sociopathic N-brother would "try" to be charming in a roomfull of people and my "falsity! bluster! That smile doesn't mean he likes you, it's teeth-baring! Whoa, he just told a major lie" aah-OO-gahh sirens would be going off in my head...

And when my mother was charming it was so twinkly-sparkly-perky it just...didn't matter. She really had no agenda other than securing the moment, I think. She did have a broad agenda of social climbing and social security (not the financial kind) but she was a fluffy bunny. She was charming to look at and sometimes to hear but mostly she sounded like someone making pleasant noises with no content. I am sure she did care at some level but she left havoc (at least in my life, though she was an asset to my father's).

My father's charm, though, I always felt was real. Or maybe it wasn't charm at all, but a close cousin I don't yet know the name for. He bantered and laughed and people just gravitated toward him...he had a musical voice and ready laugh and a wry wit that were delightful. He also had a way of being unselfconsciously present with and to people. He was self-deprecating. He could bore, on occasion (recited itineraries, but to him they were poetic) -- but most of the time, people would just show a little rush of gladness when they encountered him. He radiated the desire to put others at ease and I think he was happiest serving others.

Where I knew my brother was known, I knew my mother was admired, and I knew my father was loved.

Rambling on, would love to hear others' thoughts on what charm is...when it's N, or not.

xo
Hops

[Guest]

Hmmm Hops.

How to tell the difference between manipulative creepy charm and real grace?

Well I wouldn't call 'charm' 'grace'. So, charm...

The power or quality of pleasing or delighting; attractiveness
A particular quality that attracts; a delightful characteristic

and then we get the 'magical' associations (is this coincidence?) such as: an action or formula thought to have magical power.

I can see where I might use 'charm' to describe something other than an adult in a positive way. But to say that an adult is charming or has charm, I'd tend to be using it in a derogatory manner, meaning that they are manipulative or superficial. Okay, nothing wrong with being superficial - or is there? There is, to me. So: I don't rate charm at all.

Real grace is a totally different thing, to me.  Tutu - charming?

'Charming' is weaving a magic, a manipulation. If I was 'charming', I'd be acting towards an objective. This might be a positive objective, but it still wouldn't be 'me' being 'me'.

Grace is someone 'being'. So much bigger and so different a concept that I can't start to expand more.

As for how it works with Nism, I reckon their particular charms work with a certain sort of person. And on a big scale, it changes and gets called 'charisma'. Bill Clinton comes to mind. Is (was) he charming, and/or does (did) he have charisma? And for whom?

I doubt there was any charm or charisma in my family. Or I just saw right through any attempts at it.

[sKePTiKal]

I was gonna ask about charisma... is this simply a synonym?

To my way of thinking, the magical definitions of "charm", charming, and even charisma... are closer to the truth. And they apply equally to what we're provisionally calling grace right now. There are "spells" woven when in the company of one who's genuine, delightful, comfortable to be with and entertaining, in a real way. It's like the good hostess role, you know? The fact that it's a face one puts on with company isn't enough to totally condemn or fear or despise it.... charm isn't of itself a false, bad thing when the intent to share time together with people one cares for and about and to have a good time.

So, for me the difference is that empathy and caring motivation or gene that seems to be lacking in the N... the hole in the soul, that the N desperately tries to cover up with so much illusion. It can be comical to watch how desperately an N will work to try to make that hole invisible... how loudly they'll protest and shout their "good works"... but the dead giveaway is always the subtext of "me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me" that's obvious to everyone (except those with their own holes and motivations and desperation who might believe they have something to gain through acceptance by the N).

That subtext is kinda like the background singing girls, on the Velvet Underground's "Walk on the Wild Side"... the "do-do-do -- dooooo" part ... it's always there; fading in & out; and it's only the solo lyrics volume that drowns them out or tries to draw attention away from them. Harmony, rhythm & melody - all separate yet woven into one charming, unforgettable song.

[teartracks]

Hi Pr,

Walk on the Wild Side gives a new meaning to Hop's question about charm.   Also, its a tutorial on how to be unforgettable!

tt

[river]

I would go with how you feel inside for 1, and the other one, what is the underlying motivation.  If not sure you soon find out when all 'charm' is dropped when the reason to charm goes, ie they've got what they want, or discover you're not it!   If its genuine charm it wouldnt disappear on that basis.   

[lighter]

Hey Hops:

I think being charming is having the ability to make other people feel validated, appreciated, and special in their own skin.

Everyone needs to to feel that whatever is at the core of their being, is known and accepted by someone.

Charming people let us know that they see what's inside, and that it's what we want them to see, and that they believe it's true.

People who act charming, in order to manipulate, aren't really charming at all.

They're manipulative.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Ahhhhh, thank you all....
These are such great responses.
For me, charm is a "chewy" topic--probably in part because of Suthrun Womanhood training.

One weird thing about Nboss (well, there are many) is that now that I've seen him with his mask off, sometimes he'll say something to me that's clearly the straight truth. To him, anyway.

Today, it was: "What we're all trying to do, morally, is spend as much time as we can in the "gray area" and find out what its borders are, how far we can go."

I almost choked on my sandwich.

Hops

[Guest]

"What we're all trying to do, morally, is spend as much time as we can in the "gray area" and find out what its borders are, how far we can go."

I'm having some mental contortions trying this one on in different ways. Oh dear Hops!

[sKePTiKal]

Suthrun Womanhood

Hops, do you mind if I use this as a segue to a whole new topic? It's a rather broad, all-encompassing one... and I been a-thinkin' on it for a while, since I tripped over a thought that came out of the blue... seemingly. I think you'll have plenty to say about it!     We've kinda danced around it here, for a long while.

I like what Lighter said about charm... there is real, genuine charm from the "goodness" of the person. Not all charm is intentionally manipulative... now the question, is being able to tell the difference! And I don't think we can without a lot of experience with a person, except for those rare individuals that radiate goodness like a bright sun in mid-winter.