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Pain + Avoidance --> self-abuse

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sKePTiKal:
That's the question, Guest... still working out the answer and it may be OK, if I never get to a final, definitive "... and that's that." place. As long as I simply start walking down that path...

and the short answer is, no - I don't believe I own the infinite, penultimate futility or darkness that is my mom's waking (and probably sleeping) consciousness that results from always blaming (and giving away power of to) others. There is my own sense of futility re: having any ability or power or enough caring to impact and wake up my bro and mom from their limited view of reality. There is loss - for sure! Even the loss of my own self-soothing illusion that I MIGHT be able to "be in the right place at the right time with the right words" to be the catalyst for something of that nature. The loss of hope... and the acceptance of letting that "quest" go.

The personal darkness that I do own: is what I call the creative void - and it's a warm & fuzzy cocoon that always passes back to morning again. It's actually a nice place... healing... it's more like a litter of kittens all piled and jumbled on top of each other, resting & recharging for the next "play" session.

I have LOOKED under the bed, in the closet... for those awful, terrible, shiver-me-timbers, pee-inducing fearful darknesses within me. Stared 'em all in the face now, even the big boogie man of the certain knowledge that I too, will one day, die. Those places that I thought were so shamefully bad... I've mostly studied and claimed as part of myself -- and they were normal reactions to painful situations outside of my control - then.

That's why I think, it's finally time to take on the challenge of the most stubbornly difficult or resistant one -- and figure out the "how" of the best way to help this one thing grow, evolve, and change within me.

Guest:
Been thinking about your post Amber and where and how you seem different to how I am...

(I think you mean ultimate and not penultimate, just a feeling.) Interesting that you point your 'futility' towards any actions regarding Mom/Bro. That took me aback. Futility for me is huge, but that's a whole different thing and certainly not about FOO or PDs or anything there connected. Not about quests for sure. Wow, quests, I remember those.

Ah the kitten card. :D With marshmellows. 8) That's good, in a 'that is a goodness' way. (To me the void is the void, it's not creative or anything, but that's different.)

Death ain't the boogie man really. The boogie man is the boogie man; whoever he is: the one who could torture, torment and make your life a living hell so that death is a breeze. That's where fear is useful. I guess.

Transformation goes only so far. Some think that humans can go further...probably just by talking themselves into it; evolving their own brains etc. On a small level, fair enough, within the bounds of what is possible for everyday humans today but beyond that? They need their heads examined. Dr Guest says so.

But your personal quest, why not, you have good reasons to live and thrive. They are no doubt a great en-courage-ment?

sKePTiKal:
I used to be involved with a group (and married to someone from it) that believed in that "above & beyond" kind of transformation. Some of the basics of that were actually helpful in therapy... but I agree wholeheartedly, that the natural limiting factor is that we're all sorta normal, everyday, run of the mill humans -- and we all do, think, and feel all those human-scale things which are stuck with the labels good and bad... but that this doesn't really qualify us as "good" or "bad" people; healthy or broken people. That's something else again.

Finally watched The Black Swan with hubs and the first real friend I made post-Twiggy days... we've stuck together since junior high school...preteenagers... boyfriends, husbands, kids, losing parents... she is also a "survivor" and has a story with overlaps into/onto mine. She and I were able to talk about it, right after it was over... hubs was too much in shock after it; called it "disturbing"; and exhibited a need for some reassurance from me, that it was "just a movie"... that things like this didn't really happen, did they? He's not talking about it, too much yet. (and he thought he was going to sleep through it!) And damn, if every single book I'm picking up these days - all fiction(?) - doesn't have abuse as the central theme of the book.

Of course, friend has a FOO-story too embarassing to share, except with someone like me who no longer lives in the town and won't judge her by her family. Poor hubs must've felt like there there was something in the water, where we grew up!

But back to the movie - I'm still trying to put into words for myself, the ending where she says: it was perfect, I was perfect... along with the "price" of being perfect. Friend and I absolutely understood and didn't question the main char's self-hatred nor the "accident" which finally provided the kind of oblivion and peace which she simply didn't find anywhere else. Hubs is afraid of that; probably "getting" that this is what I'm currently zoomed in on changing in myself... and has seen it when it was out of control, in me and other people. That kind of unconscious, conflicting, and self-abusing "throw myself under the bus" mental process.

Asking myself: is it true that everything has a price? Is that the mentality behind internalized self abuse? The silly, incorrect, and just plain "wrong" idea? And isn't "beating ourselves up"... forcing ourselves to "stay with the pain"... or living in depressive "flatland"... or smoking or worse... just our "inner parent" imposing that price; consequence -- on ourselves? And if we're adults; grandparents even... do we really NEED an inner parent anymore? (inner children are more fun once they realize they're allowed to BE children...) What if those inner parents are cruel and nasty and manipulative SOBs?? Over controlling; self-boundary intrusive yet still neglectful... abusers? Shouldn't those kind of inner parents be overthrown in a coup? or taken out with the trash?

and THEN, I read an article about several studies into "Loyality"... and am left puzzled; something I don't understand in the context of how I understand loyalty; what I was taught about all that loyalty entailed. "Studies looking at loyalty and trust suggest that these qualities may be fundamental to human relationships", some psychologists say. OK so far. I can agree with that... it's what all people need to connect with another. HERE's the part that doesn't jibe with my experience:

"Therefore, staying loyal to someone, and preserving a mutual feeling of trust, [my emphasis] allow people to be able to function with others without constantly suspecting their motives". Later, the article says, "People who were apt to forgive their partner without that partner making amends tended to show a gradual erosion of their self-respect." Well DUH - we call that being a doormat; throwing ourselves under the bus; I hope they didn't get a grant to come to that conclusion.

So all this is rolling around together, in my head. (please - if you see a hole in this premise and line of reasoning - pls kick it wide open, ok?)

Trust is experience based. When you meet someone new - you take a risk, and trust them to fulfill their promises - keep a secret, show up at the agreed time, whatever. To do what they SAY they will do.

Loyalty is something based on.... what? belief? past experience of trust and reliability? our own unconscious wants & needs? attachment?? I was taught that "loyalty" had no connection with trust at all... it was those family roles... that mattered more; one forgives family everything; or at least I had to; I have a hard time coming up with examples of when it worked the other way for me. (OK - so I don't really believe that anymore; but the old reflex - tradition - or foo-script is still there.)

My friend's FOOstory involves classic domestic abuse; her sister is being loyal and going back to sick (and criminal) hubby despite the fact that she absolutely can't trust him. I stayed loyal to my FOO over the years, despite what that did to my self-respect... and have not ever been able to trust them, over & over... it's been proven that even when they SAY "it's only because I care about you; it's good for you; for your own good" - it absolutely wasn't in my best interest. And the loyalty conflict issue - comes out, is acted out in me - I think... perhaps... as this self-abuse. To be loyal to these people I can't trust... is hurting myself. But to be loyal to mySelf - to protect myself via boundaries and all these other skills - is to violate that loyalty to FOO. And there is no "middle way" for my mom or bro - and me. Not to them; not part of their reality... and definition of trust & loyalty.

So... I don't understand how there can be these "relationships" - where the basics don't exist - trust and loyalty. Seems to me that these two things are pre-requisites for defining that a relationship exists. And, in interactions where one "trades" one's self-respect for the illusion of a relationship... for a one-way relationship of loyalty and forgiveness of all things... how does that eventually turn into such vile and intense self-hatred, that one unconsciously punishes oneself? Is that where the drive to perfectionsim comes in? Codependence? or is it that pain - like water - seeks it's own lowest level? And that this kind of pain is the top of the list of unbearable pain, and therefore activates an unconscious activity to stop the pain?

Musing... pondering... letting all this roll around in my head (out loud) for awhile. Y'all don't have to try to answer my questions... unless there's something there for you, too. If I don't say things out loud like this, I can't always hear when my thoughts & ideas are absurd. No one says - hey, what about??? or that's just wrong... or...

Hopalong:
Hi PR,
What popped up for me was the notion of "tolerable risk". That relates to how much threat you are experiencing.

For me, at the peak of battling to cope with a frank reality that my brother would happily have destroyed my life and was (fortunately incoherently and ultimately, to the court, irrationally) trying to do so...to have any contact with him whatsoever became an intolerable risk. When that switch flipped, that this was a matter of both self-preservation and my inherent right to dignity and peace, I finally was able to release him to be who he is. But he is no longer in my PHamily. Amazingly, for my main abuser, I had to go through some grief. I had no brother any more. (Never had had a protective, kind, good older brother. But still, there was a part of my identity in which, I had this relative. Didn't think I needed to grieve any about that, especially given what an enormous relief it was, but the psyche knows what it knows. And that was good. To see it, not worry about how nonsensical it was. To let that grief happen too.)

So when the definitions of right and wrong and loyal or disloyal come up in your current effort to find safety and health, I think what you may be trying to do is simply define for yourself, in a way you and your conscience (as opposed to your guilty fearful self) can live with, what tolerable risk is. (That's what ongoing relationships with difficult family involve, I think. All a choice. NC is always on the table. But...so is some compromise...if the payoff--having the relative and that part of your own identity--does not involve intolerable risk.)

Hell, even the most loving, healthy relationships involve SOME risk. We can disappoint each other. Even "good" and "safe" people will hurt somebody sometimes. But, I think when we come farther along in healing, that knowledge becomes tolerable and doesn't necessarily mean a severing. Depends. Case by case. With friends, family, PHamily.

It might involve a lot of pendulum swings. You might even need that extremism for a while. Perhaps the adrenalin it provides also gives you power, to contain the old fears. And to prevent you from slipping further into self-abuse. The danger is that in the raging battle to save oneself from abuse, one can unwittingly slip occasionally into shades of abusiveness oneself. (I know I found that dark wind in myself. Who, me? I was stunned. Had no idea I even had that darkness. It was as though Mother Theresa woke from a nightmare in which she was plotting how to stomp on somebody dying in a Calcutta gutter.) After a while, I realized that under enough strain, any psyche can morph and strain into something new, something distorted. Well and truly including my own.

So forgiveness, when it came, was a mercy to me. (All done, regarding my mother. Not completed, regarding Nbro.) Because I could forgive myself, too, for the dark places I fell into. AND REALIZED I COULD CLIMB OUT FROM.

For what it might be worth, the legal battle ended with sociobro about a year ago. I continue with NC and assume he will, as well. But oddly, I am beginning to realize that if, one day, I wound up seeing him, or chose to attend a funeral he was attending, or whatever...I don't think I'd be all that fussed. Saddened, some, to see him and remember. But because the switch flipped for me, I have already saved myself.  Nothing he could do or say to me, or about me, ever, will change that.

It's like I've had surgery. I have no desire or plan to ever see my brother again (though hope I may one day see his kids or my SIL). But I'm realizing if I did, he could dance around me, stick his face in my face, exude all the evil toxic crazy vibes he wanted. And I would be able to stand there sipping my punch, and know I am fine. The brother-terror-gland has literally been removed. There's nothing he can squirt at me that would reactivate it.

So...it really doesn't matter if I see him or not. I will never seek him out, because his behavior was truly sociopathically vicious, but I don't need the razor wire any more. I am my own safe fence.

Jeez. I useta be able ta write better imagery.

love,
Hops

Guest:
Tolerable risk, nice one. I was thinking about tolerating ambiguity; rather off down my own meandering nonsense path, thinking about 'trust' and 'loyalty'. Ambiguity pays a big part of course.

I wondered if there's more trust for someone I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them vs. I wouldn't trust them as far as I can spit. Maybe they're the same distance/difference now that I'm not as strong as I used to be.

"Under enough strain, any psyche can morph and strain into something new, something distorted." We are all rapists and murderers under the circumstances necessary for each of us to behave like that. Fact, I would imagine. Why would any one person be different?

Hops, about safety: okay, so you wouldn't be fussed at seeing him, but presumably if he was wielding a large machete you'd feel pretty afraid? It's still necessary to keep in mind that a few would be violent - inner safety and boundaries are one thing. They don't stop the knife.

What's loyalty. A loyal person to me is one who has integrity, who is constant, and who will withdraw trust once (HA! once, not, if! :lol:) it has been violated. In everyday terms, not in ultimate compassion type terms.

I gotta say i have zero interest in seeing Black swan. Mind you I have little interest in films these days. My head is full enough and all the stories are the same really.

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