Author Topic: Should therapists self-disclose?  (Read 15851 times)

Meh

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2011, 02:30:13 AM »
Well, I'm glad you have self disclosed on this board, glad that the board exists.

Glad because knowing that there are other people who have similarly confusing and grief inducing family relationships, probably does reduce my own emotional confusion and strain a little bit.


BonesMS

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2011, 07:22:02 AM »
Now if only we can find more therapists who GET what being a survivor of a Narcissist is all about.  Unfortunately, Dr. G. is unable to clone himself and be everywhere.

Bones
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Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2011, 03:31:28 PM »
Hops,

You have seen all types (in terms of therapist self-disclosure and boundaries), and I appreciated your perspective and where you have ended up.  You’re right.  In and of itself, self-disclosure does not make for great therapy—the text and subtext of that self-disclosure are critical.  But I think, as you do, that “feet of clay” are usually damaging.


CB,

Personality disorders including Borderline Personality Disorder present a whole different challenge for a therapist.  My “kind of therapy”, I found, largely failed with patients with BPD.  DBT (a mixture of cognitive therapy and mindfulness training) is not relationship based, but largely technique based.  (Couple’s therapy, too, is largely advice-based, and not relationship based—so I’m not surprised self-disclosure didn’t help.)   So, I’m not sure that Marsha Linehan’s acknowledgement would have helped her patients had she offered it in real time.  Still, like you, I admire her admission—and I believe her having had the disorder was crucial to her finding something that worked for others.

Ales2,

I think your therapist telling you that his children were in therapy, in order to reduce your stigma/guilt was a fine thing to do…

Boat that Rocks

Here’s some evidence of the value of therapist self-disclosure:

Therapists Redraw Line on Self-Disclosure
By ERICA GOODE
Published: January 01, 2002

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/01/health/therapists-redraw-line-on-self-disclosure.html


PR,

“I find the idea that a therapist is an all-knowing, all-powerful Oz who has all the answers and the magic ability to "fix" me... well, it's off-putting. Yet, I think we all start the process with that stereotype in our minds.”

I agree.  In the psychoanalytic heyday at the major teaching hospitals and institutes, this is what, in my experience, therapists wanted people to believe.  Many people were either not helped or damaged as a result.

“Personally, I don't think a T's personal history is relevant to being able to guide a client through the process of learning a new balance within themselves. You reach out, steady them, help them find their balance... then slowly, give them the room to realize they can move around just fine, without wobbling and falling again. That doesn't require the T to have experienced vertigo, you know?”

In my experience, both as a patient and supervising other therapists, those who had experienced “vertigo” (metaphorically speaking) or some other disorder that allowed them to know something of what it was like from more than an intellectual perspective, were much better at helping those with the disorder.  But there are many variables here, including whether the treatment was technique based (e.g. cognitive therapy), how severe the problem was, how broad or narrow the problem was, etc.


Bones,

If the therapist is narcissistic, self-disclosure is of no use at all…


Guest,

Yes, it definitely helps to know something about the therapist’s specialties before you start.  The internet has been a wonderful help in that regard.


TT,

“It's kind of like a piano tuner knows how to tune a piano, but not necessarily know how to play a piano in the strict sense (if that makes any sense).”  

For some problems, technique based solutions work fine.  But for other’s, IMO, a relationship is required—and the better the relationship, the better the outcome.

Bones,

“On the other hand, I had the unfortunate experience of a therapist abandoning her patients in group therapy because an issue that came up with us triggered her PTSD.  NOT fun!”

That’s a very sad situation.



Thanks to all for your responses,


Richard

« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 08:20:24 AM by Dr. Richard Grossman »

Hopalong

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2011, 09:20:04 PM »
Hi Richard,

No big deal but what I meant to convey actually is that perceiving "feet of clay" has mostly been the opposite of damaging, in my view...

Quote
from my own experience, I am both encouraged and humbled by seeing those clay feet. It encourages me to take fuller responsibility for my own healing

...sensitive/thoughtful self-disclosure by a T, done with care (as opposed to self-indulgence) is, for me, is a positive.

Hops
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Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2011, 09:41:58 PM »
Got it, Hops.  Sorry, I didn't read closely enough the second time around...

Richard

BonesMS

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 08:46:45 AM »
Hops,

You have seen all types (in terms of therapist self-disclosure and boundaries), and I appreciated your perspective and where you have ended up.  You’re right.  In and of itself, self-disclosure does not make for great therapy—the text and subtext of that self-disclosure are critical.  But I think, as you do, that “feet of clay” are usually damaging.


CB,

Personality disorders including Borderline Personality Disorder present a whole different challenge for a therapist.  My “kind of therapy”, I found, largely failed with patients with BPD.  DBT (a mixture of cognitive therapy and mindfulness training) is not relationship based, but largely technique based.  (Couple’s therapy, too, is largely advice-based, and not relationship based—so I’m not surprised self-disclosure didn’t help.)   So, I’m not sure that Marsha Linehan’s acknowledgement would have helped her patients had she offered it in real time.  Still, like you, I admire her admission—and I believe her having had the disorder was crucial to her finding something that worked for others.

Ales2,

I think your therapist telling you that his children were in therapy, in order to reduce your stigma/guilt was a fine thing to do…

Boat that Rocks

Here’s some evidence of the value of therapist self-disclosure:

Therapists Redraw Line on Self-Disclosure
By ERICA GOODE
Published: January 01, 2002

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/01/health/therapists-redraw-line-on-self-disclosure.html


PR,

“I find the idea that a therapist is an all-knowing, all-powerful Oz who has all the answers and the magic ability to "fix" me... well, it's off-putting. Yet, I think we all start the process with that stereotype in our minds.”

I agree.  In the psychoanalytic heyday at the major teaching hospitals and institutes, this is what, in my experience, therapists wanted people to believe.  Many people were either not helped or damaged as a result.

“Personally, I don't think a T's personal history is relevant to being able to guide a client through the process of learning a new balance within themselves. You reach out, steady them, help them find their balance... then slowly, give them the room to realize they can move around just fine, without wobbling and falling again. That doesn't require the T to have experienced vertigo, you know?”

In my experience, both as a patient and supervising other therapists, those who had experienced “vertigo” (metaphorically speaking) or some other disorder that allowed them to know something of what it was like from more than an intellectual perspective, were much better at helping those with the disorder.  But there are many variables here, including whether the treatment was technique based (e.g. cognitive therapy), how severe the problem was, how broad or narrow the problem was, etc.


Bones,

If the therapist is narcissistic, self-disclosure is of no use at all…


Guest,

Yes, it definitely helps to know something about the therapist’s specialties before you start.  The internet has been a wonderful help in that regard.


TT,

“It's kind of like a piano tuner knows how to tune a piano, but not necessarily know how to play a piano in the strict sense (if that makes any sense).”  

For some problems, technique based solutions work fine.  But for other’s, IMO, a relationship is required—and the better the relationship, the better the outcome.

Bones,

“On the other hand, I had the unfortunate experience of a therapist abandoning her patients in group therapy because an issue that came up with us triggered her PTSD.  NOT fun!”

That’s a very sad situation.



Thanks to all for your responses,


Richard



You're welcome, Dr. G., and thanks!

Regarding therapies that are "technique based", one thing that bothers me with that approach is the "one-size-fits-all" mode of thinking.  When I worked for three months, at a prison facility, they had recently changed from a client-centered approach to one of the technique-based approaches....cognitive behavioral therapy...and was attempting to force ALL the prison residents there to "fit the mold" so to speak.  I was NOT comfortable using that technique-based approach, (plus I had NO prior training in that method) and I was seeing too many instances where CBT was just simply NOT appropriate!  It made it difficult, if not impossible, to design an Individualized Treatment Plan while being pressured to write that plan from a "cookie cutter" standpoint.  If a client could NOT "fit the mold", (e.g. suffering from schizophrenia and taking psychotropic medications), he was shipped to a different prison and he basically got NO help at all in spite of the fact that he was CLEARLY DUALLY-DIAGNOSED!  In the end, I just could NOT condone that and stay there.  (The powers that be were also violating several state regulations which also compelled me to quit after such a short time of employment.)  The experience left me in a lose-lose situation....quit and be unable to become certified, stay and attempt to work while vehemently disagreeing with the way the clients were being treated....wait for the ax to fall on me as the now-identified "whistle blower" because I contacted the state to question what I was seeing and the state authorities used my name when they contacted my then-supervisor.  I felt I had no choice but to leave considering the circumstances.  That one experience left me with the impression that the powers that were in control was simply looking at the money going into their pockets and didn't care about the front-line staff nor the clients that they were supposed to be helping.  They seemed to have forgotten WHY the clients needed help in the first place!  I find it so sad when someone in a therapeutic professional position looks at a human being and sees ONLY DOLLARS, CENTS, AND PROFIT.  Am I making sense?

Bones
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lighter

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 12:06:11 PM »
I agree that T's that share their own experiences, and struggles, helps me bond and feel safer.

I also feel that the trust goes both ways, and that's truly a gift, IME.

Lighter

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2011, 10:19:42 PM »
I didn’t publicly answer Hops’ question about my wife’s health.  Hildy recently got the results of her latest CT scan, and all is well.  As many of you know, she was diagnosed with lung cancer 4 ½ years ago.  The non-profit she founded three years ago, Upstage Lung Cancer (http://www.upstagelungcancer.org/), is about to make a $100,000 donation (in conjunction with Lungevity-- http://events.lungevity.org/site/PageServer) to support research in early detection of lung cancer.  Hildy is the most determined person I know.  She, too, tries to turn bad “stuff” into good “stuff”...

Richard

   

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2011, 10:35:51 PM »
Hi Bones,

"They seemed to have forgotten WHY the clients needed help in the first place!  I find it so sad when someone in a therapeutic professional position looks at a human being and sees ONLY DOLLARS, CENTS, AND PROFIT.  Am I making sense?"

Perfect sense...and, unfortunately, things are only getting worse because of the financial crunch.


Richard

BonesMS

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 08:16:57 AM »
Hi Bones,

"They seemed to have forgotten WHY the clients needed help in the first place!  I find it so sad when someone in a therapeutic professional position looks at a human being and sees ONLY DOLLARS, CENTS, AND PROFIT.  Am I making sense?"

Perfect sense...and, unfortunately, things are only getting worse because of the financial crunch.


Richard


Thanks, Richard!  I wish I had the power to change things for the better.

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 08:38:08 PM »
One last thought on this topic (from me).  If you have experienced “voicelessness”, finding a good therapist in my experience, is very difficult.  When people ask me how to do it, I do not have any easy answers.  Training/experience is important, smarts are important, and “kind of human being” is important.  For me, the third factor is the most difficult to assess quickly—particularly in an era of supposed neutrality.  Professional or friend’s recommendations are not enough—one has to make the assessment oneself.  And one has to use every bit of information available.  In a sense, one has to be excellent at reading people quickly—but often in therapy relationships, just as in non-therapy relationships, we are drawn to what we know.  And what we know is/was damaging.  So we have to be careful.  If a therapist is willing to self-disclose and trust, IMO, that is a positive measure of the third criterion.  But clearly, on its own, self-disclosure is not enough.  When auditioning therapists, we have to listen to every word the therapist says, and we have to ask ourselves the same question the therapist asks:  “Who is this person.”  Every therapist will be different and every therapy will be different.  Finding the right match is, in my view, critical.  

Richard
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 08:40:03 PM by Dr. Richard Grossman »

mudpuppy

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2011, 06:29:17 PM »
Glad to hear your wife is doing well Doctor G. No sure thing by any means with lung cancer.

I've never been through therapy myself but have known a few therapists.
I'm sure, or at least hopeful, that this is merely anecdotal, but the few I have known seem to me to have been considerably more in need of intense therapy themselves rather than dispensing it to others.
Are the disturbed inordinately attracted to the field of psychology the same way, just as an example, smart, handsome, rugged dudes are attracted to the timber industry? Heh.

mud

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 08:01:37 AM »
Hi Mud,

Thanks.  Sadly, only 15% of people diagnosed with lung cancer survive 5 years—which is why early detection is so important.  If it is caught early (before symptoms appear) approx. 75% survive--my wife was lucky enough to fit into this category.  I hope your wife continues to do well…


I've never been through therapy myself but have known a few therapists.
I'm sure, or at least hopeful, that this is merely anecdotal, but the few I have known seem to me to have been considerably more in need of intense therapy themselves rather than dispensing it to others.
Are the disturbed inordinately attracted to the field of psychology the same way, just as an example, smart, handsome, rugged dudes are attracted to the timber industry? Heh.

Yup.  If I were a smart, handsome, rugged dude, you never would’ve heard from me……...or maybe you would have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg


Richard



CB123

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2011, 08:07:34 AM »
Richard,

You made my morning!  I woke up and "tuned in" to VESMB with a cup of coffee and found your youtube link. 

Oh my goodness.  Big smile!

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: Should therapists self-disclose?
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 09:23:15 AM »
Uh-oh.
Poor Mrs. Mud.

We don't even know if Mud can carry a tuuuuuuuuuuune...

and now she's going to have to listen to this!

(At least let her help pick out your outfit, okay, Mud?
She does have good taste in lumberjacks, so that bodes well...)

 :lol:

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."