Author Topic: Troy Davis  (Read 5443 times)

mudpuppy

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2011, 08:56:12 PM »
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No gloss on it, that I've heard in my entire life, has ever transmuted it to "justice". It's not. It's revenge.

No. Revenge would be the private application by, say, the victim's family, of the death penalty. That is illegal. It would be just as illegal for the victim's family to convict him in a private trial and detain the murderer in their basement for the rest of his life.
What the state does is retribution or retributive justice when society is attacked by those who would harm their fellow citizens.
It is one of the few legitimate roles of the state to criminalize acts which harm others and to capture and punish those who do so.
Jesus did not give instruction to the state, in fact he told us to render unto Caesar what is his. We as individuals must forgive, not least because we are not as individuals charged with enforcing the laws.
If the state were bound by the same rules, not only would Messrs Brewer and Davis not be executed but it seems to me they'd be our next door neighbors. If execution is revenge then life in prison without parole is just as surely revenge as well, although some apparently view it as a less drastic one. I'm not sure I do.

mud

Hopalong

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 11:57:08 PM »
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the larger one of whether the small chance of an execution of an innocent person should lead to the abolition of the death penalty.

I hope it helps lead to it.
But for me, the issue is not that the chance of executing innocents is the reason it should be abolished.
It's that we shouldn't be executing the guilty either.
The issue is that we shouldn't be executing other human beings. IMO.

The state can call it retributive justice or deliberative procedures or all sorts of other terms and those all roll off my back and brain, because although those terms are real and used in real debate...they're just not my vocabulary for it.

i'm just past the legal/societal arguments for it. I interviewed Stanley Kunitz once, and he said, "Of all the instruments of power, the state is most monstrous." (Meaning, more than weapons, more than wars...but the state itself is monstrous in its codfication of things like killing.)

My vocabulary for it is not taken from the law. I didn't take in all of Christ but the Chrisit I knew was saying, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And I don't know if I misunderstood his render things of Caesar (the state) unto Caesar...if that meant let Ceasar go on executing, it's not our business.

I don't know what he meant. I still love him but am not likely to agree with everything he said.
I just remember that my Jesus-and-me childhood got me quite clearly a sense (other side of the reality planet from a justice systems' rationale) that in the golden core of what he was, the part I was affected by and totally trusted...took me long to "Thou shalt not kill" and I thought that covered how we humans are supposed to treat each other.

Falling alssp, wth a heart of love for my Mudpuppy pal...thanks, Mud, for coming on to talk about it.

xo
Hops
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teartracks

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 12:35:05 AM »




Hi Hops,

It is my understanding that biblically a distinction is made between premeditated killing and killing someone unwittingly.  The Israelites were instructed to establish cities of refuge (six) so that one who killed unwittingly could flee to them and be protected until they 'stood before the congregation'.   This is just an interesting tidbit (well to me it is), not by any stretch an exposition of all that could be said on the subject.

tt


 

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 09:38:18 AM »
Like little children, we are:

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

I think this one through my dumb head quite a lot.

IMO Evil doesn't exist; stupidity does. Ignorance is another word for stupidity.

I guess it's partly my ignorance that keeps me going.

mudpuppy

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 01:11:13 PM »
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Of all the instruments of power, the state is most monstrous.

I've always wondered why some of the people who say this are also some of the people who insist on giving the state the most power, as though it is benevolent when exercising power we agree it should but malevolent when exercising power we don't like.
In any event glad to stop by, Hops.

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Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

I think this one through my dumb head quite a lot.

Not sure you're getting the gist of that one, FW. It's not that they didn't know they were executing an innocent man, they did. Pilate found Him innocent of any actual crime but ordered him executed on the demands of the Sanhedrin who also knew Him to be innocent.
What they didn't know they were doing was executing the Son of God, the Messiah, not just some wandering carpenter from Nazareth who refused to defend Himself.

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IMO Evil doesn't exist.

May I introduce you to my friends Adolph, Joseph, Mao, Che, most of the people who sent us to this board and a host of other people who seem not particularly stupid or ignorant to me, but quite intentionally and overwhelmingly malicious?

mud

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 02:57:09 PM »
Ah Mud, how I think about the 'forgive them' idea is not the same. I reckon if people could be faced with the full truth of what they do, they wouldn't do it. And by that I mean that the psychos suddenly have empathy, and so on. I mean if they weren't mad/disordered/mentally deficient/choose your own word, they wouldn't do it. It's a simplistic idea not worth discussing. Just me thinking about things I absorbed. Thanks for that though.

About evil: if being intentionally malicious equals evil, then evil people exist. Evil people? Evil deeds? And does it matter? I have some problem with the idea of 'evil' and I'm not sure what it is. Haven't quite thought it through. I think it's something to do with examples. I think of 'evil' as 100% full on and every horror that I know of shows a pathetic warped distorted human under there somewhere, as opposed to a human who is, well, sort of dedicated to evil. Who got up in the morning thinking "I'm going to do lots of evil today."? Not sure our brains work like that. There's always some other 'reason', it's never just straight evil-doing for the hell of it. Although it sure looks like it with some people. It really does.

river

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 03:07:57 PM »

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  And what you dont do is imagine what it would be like if you had been executed for a shooting you didnt commit, or a child of yours perhaps.
 
mudpuppy said
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  please explain to me what use it would be to imagine such a thing.   

........ then you would be more concerned, and understand why others are concerned. 

mudpuppy

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 05:38:58 PM »
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And what you dont do is imagine what it would be like if you had been executed for a shooting you didnt commit, or a child of yours perhaps.

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please explain to me what use it would be to imagine such a thing.

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........ then you would be more concerned, and understand why others are concerned. 

OK, I imagined it.
Unfortunately I'm still not more concerned and I already understood why others are concerned, so like I said it wasn't of much use.
Sorry, guess I'm just a heartless b*****d. :oops:

mud

river

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 06:38:45 PM »

Hopalong

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 06:58:30 PM »
Naaah, I know you're not heartless, Mud.
Far from it.

Truly, verily. I testify about my brother Mud -- this is a GOOD man,
who's often on the opposite side of political issues from where I find myself.
This all has humbled me and alerted me to my jerking knees and fondness for
echo chambers...


And guess what, despite this, they (whoever "they" are) still made Kunitz
our Poet Laureate...(confession: He was an early inspiration and momentary mentor, to me).

Kunitz believes the poet's role is to "demonstrate the power of the solitary conscience," as he told Washington Post staff writer Elizabeth Kastor. "It's a terrible power to entrust to people who are not spiritually great, that's all there is to it," Kunitz said of government officials. "You see it in the callousness, self-aggrandizement, insensitivity to the plight of the poor. In the general level of ethical conduct, the state has become an abomination."

Ahhh well.

I wish I understood more than I do, that's a fact.

peace and peas,

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2011, 07:20:19 PM »
Glad you said that Hops, so I don't have to contradict Mud on his self-appraisal. Oh, er :?....well, it's good for me to practice staying out of other people's conversations. So now all I have to do is sit on the hands that want to type explanations, or theories, because that don't help nobody, plus, I don't know peas from pudding. Thanks Hops.

teartracks

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2011, 08:09:47 PM »



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Truly, verily. I testify about my brother Mud -- this is a GOOD man

Yes, he is  8).  

tt



« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 08:12:47 PM by teartracks »

Hopalong

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2011, 09:22:22 PM »
but he can get cranky when politics is waved under his nose...


:evil:   (((((((((Mudpup))))))))   :mrgreen:

but who is really is, is  :arrow:

Just heard a lovely a capella group on the tube, Liberian men, who got eliminated from the SingOff competition and I'm thinking nooooooo, they weren't slick, but they brought their stories (war and refugee) into their voices and they made that sweet African soulful deep sound that just creates community wherever you hear is...
Walking out, they lit into Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, and it was bones and heart music...

Gospel's where I got a lot of my religion, such as it is.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

river

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 03:55:44 AM »
but he can get cranky when politics is waved under his nose...
:evil:   (((((((((Mudpup))))))))   :mrgreen:
but who is really is, is  :arrow:
Just heard a lovely a capella group on the tube, Liberian men, who got eliminated from the SingOff competition and I'm thinking nooooooo, they weren't slick, but they brought their stories (war and refugee) into their voices and they made that sweet African soulful deep sound that just creates community wherever you hear is...
Walking out, they lit into Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, and it was bones and heart music...
Gospel's where I got a lot of my religion, such as it is.
love,
Hops


Hops, can you send a link, I'd like some of that!!   : {       



river

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Re: Troy Davis
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 04:27:46 AM »
    ~
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   "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing"