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the shame of it

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Hopalong:
Ah-hah.
I think there's something true in that, FW, what you said about it being "special" so feel so much shame. It really could be grandiosity--which is........tada and oh horrors..........an Nspot. In my view.

Ugh. Now I'm feeling ashamed for feeling shame.

Just kidding. I'm not really. But the ego connection is definitely something for me to think about.

Sorry about the links--but if you just Google "shame definition" -- the Wiki page was the first one. Likewsie for "guilt definition."

tx,
Hops

sKePTiKal:
I'm not not sure there ISN'T something valuable in examining feeling shame, say for the actions of another person or one's country. That's waaaay too much responsibility (and punishment) for one person, IMO. But we'll save that for later.

Hops: the way shame works for me is that yes, I'm singled out as someone "special" all right. But it's more as the worstest, awfulest, most despicable excuse for a human being with no redeeming value whatsoever. Someone who must hide in my shame... and it IS a punishment - for "who one is" (as if, you'll never change unless we beat this out of you). And yet, one is who one is....

... SO. In the Wiki definition, that talks about shame being an attack on the self, which then causes the self to "split" - into two selves... it's like having an "evil twin". Some of our "urges" get labelled shameful and attributed to the evil twin which is, to the best of one's ability hidden and dis-owned as "self"... and then we try to pro-actively support the other attributes in the "good self"... except it doesn't have much passion, energy, or free will - it's always trying to fit someone else's requirements or definition of "who we are".  This is what river talks about, when she refers to the "Self in Exile". Shame is the weapon used that causes this to happen.

But, while it is definitely connected to ego... ego in itself is not a bad thing. (Not having one at all is very bad! - that's like not having any boundaries; what buddhism refers to as "ego", is slightly different, I think). Nspots, of the variety I think you're talking about here... are healthy ones, Hops.

teartracks:
Much like a sound bite, but I'll throw it into the mix.

"Guilt says I've done something wrong; shame says there is something wrong with me.

Guilt says I've made a mistake; shame says I am a mistake.

Guilt says what did was not good; shame says I am no good."


And what the heck, I like this essay, so I'll throw it in too.

“ … our models can tyrannize us by setting up unrealistic standards of
heroism, therefore condemning us to frustrated shame”
dick keyes

http://www.labri.org/england/resources/08042008/DK04_Shame-and-Guilt.pdf

tt

Guest:
Hops


--- Quote ---what you said about it being "special" so feel so much shame. It really could be grandiosity--which is........tada and oh horrors..........an Nspot.
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily; perhaps like depressed people sometimes being so self-absorbed that you want to shout at them! Too much inwards, not enough outwards.

BonesMS:
One thing that may be a constant struggle....understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame.

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