New thread for flirting, opposite sex relationship stuff

[Meh]

Wondering how this topic fits into experiencing Voicelessness.

Generally I have some sense of secrecy or privacy about flirting etc.
Maybe the voicelessness comes in because I just never discus it at all.

But somehow since the topic has come up, I think I have been talking to people more when I am out and about I think.

Sort of like "is it okay to play" ?

I have been told that I am very aloof and stand-offish sometimes...I don't know how accurate that feedback is but probably is.

On some level I wonder if I just don't know if....(Is it okay to play)?
And doesn't that tie in with anxiety also....if one always questions (IS IT OKAY TO PLAY) that is a place of anxiety.
When I write (Is it okay to play)...that makes me take a deep breathe.

It's such a basic simple thing, how can this really be an issue?

[Meh]

....so that would lead me on to consider if it really is unsafe for me to play....or it is safe for me to play yet I still feel unsafe...

How do I know if it is "SAFE TO PLAY"... I'm not so much talking about flirting, I'm talking about just simply conversing with anybody in an AT EASE way. As opposed to an anxious way.

...that would lead me on to are there more sophisticated types of play specifically for "unsafe" situations...because animals out in the wild sometimes are playing at fighting correct? If animals play fight...then it is serious play.

I'm not sure what I am getting at here. Does anybody else feel as if they are NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY???

Clearly I have discovered an affirmation here: "It's okay to play" or I am allowed to play.

[sKePTiKal]

Boat - the reason I finally started this thread is because I often don't feel it's safe to play. Play is connected to a whole bunch of other things, too. And it's a tangled ball o' yuck...

... and I'm trying to figure it out. It's not just hubs & intimate relationships... it's lots of things; lots of situations. Yes, anxiety is part of the tangle - at least for me it is.

Things have been busy on the board lately. I need to just go somewhere & think a bit. Everyone's ideas are definitely helping. Moving things along.

[Hopalong]

You've got to feel SAFE to play.

I had a friend in a women's support group once who had lived through a very very rough "on the streets" kind of adolescence. I didn't understand her for a long time until one day I told her she reminded me of the Viet Nam vets I knew, who were eternally vigilant and tense, jumping at the slightest noise. I thought she was similar in that maybe she found it hard to recognize that she was now in peace time. She connected to that; it made sense to her.

PTSD is one explanation. Though that kind of vigilance can be an undercurrent, milder, etc...

So the kinds of emotional lockdown kids of abusive or twisted or repressive situations (maybe like severely Nparent/s) have to do to survive, I think contributes to a kind of inflexibility that means all things are forced in a way. Connection is forced, relaxation is forced, and the minuet between the two is a minefield rather than a dance. If you're constantly having to summon up the emotional energy to plan and launch the inner realization that now is time for connection (ooomph) or now is the time this organism needs to relax (more effort to recognize and then get there, ooooooooommmph) ... how the heck is any energy left over for play?

I think that's why it's hard for wounded people to play. Play also requires being very much in the present moment. Not reverberating from the past or fearing the future.

It makes perfect sense to me that this is very hard...to get to be present enough to play.

At the same time it also makes perfect sense to me that wounded people can learn to feel safe again, and be present again.

Art therapy probably will help. Drama, too. Singing. Time with children. Gardening...

Feeling "jumpy" is a clue that your past or your future are climbing into the circle of your present.

(I am a human bunny wabbit. Boing boing.)

xo
Hops

[Meh]

(I am a human bunny wabbit. Boing boing.)

That makes me laugh Hops. Is that where you got the name Hops from?

[Hopalong]

Hopalong Cassidy...an early hero...

 

[BonesMS]

Hopalong Cassidy...an early hero...

 

I remember Hopalong Cassidy from my childhood, along with Roy Rogers and Dale Evans.

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

I had a dream when I was 3 or 4 - that Roy & Dale were going to adopt me (they adopted all their kids). I missed the ice cream truck, because I didn't want to wake up from the dream... and this is verified by my bro, who still teases me about it.

Hops:

So the kinds of emotional lockdown kids of abusive or twisted or repressive situations (maybe like severely Nparent/s) have to do to survive, I think contributes to a kind of inflexibility that means all things are forced in a way. Connection is forced, relaxation is forced, and the minuet between the two is a minefield rather than a dance. If you're constantly having to summon up the emotional energy to plan and launch the inner realization that now is time for connection (ooomph) or now is the time this organism needs to relax (more effort to recognize and then get there, ooooooooommmph) ... how the heck is any energy left over for play?

Boy, Hops! Even if you are bouncy, you sure see right through the kind of verbal dancing around I'm guilty of... and get right to the point, huh?? I feel like a fly under a T-pin. Caught in the act. On viral video!   ::   Thank you. I'm grateful for your insight.

Seriously, I think this is true of me and that pit of the stomach void, unable to recognize the signs of play, inability to respond in kind distance (or slipping away with my attention to slink along the wall and make good my escape only to go "HUH?" later on). I guess when you live in an environment where the "rules" are always changing - and you're not allowed to say: yesterday the rule was THIS so why is it different today???; I guess one of the defensive things one clings to is a finite, concrete, rigid definition of things. IS/IS NOT.

The party I went to for my D's engagement... a bunch of boho, young, artsy or musical people in a place where there are no "rules" except to be nice and have fun... well, this old lady had a blast!! Flirting, even. But also feeling like I was connecting - with the fiance's family, my Ds friends... most of whom I hadn't met before. I even felt like I was in my element; more so than hubs and son-in-law who aren't comfortable in the city. I'd had plenty of time to talk myself around to feeling as if I had permission to do this... and within limits of some non-defined, unknowable "decorum".

Me. The one that lets anxiety wind me up so tight about having company because something in me insists I must be responsible for insuring that everyone has a wonderful time & everything is "perfect"... feeling at a loss and frightened in large groups of people... not feeling as if I have the experience/personality/forbearance even... to enjoy such things. Or that I'll stick out as being inappropriately dressed... a wallflower... shy... NOT HAVING FUN... i.e., not engaging, so why on earth am I there? When you don't have groups of friends or birthday parties as a kid... you never learn the rules, the limits, the manners or even know what you're supposed to do at these things.

So. OK. Now I have "proof" that I know how to do this; I know how to play in that area. Feedback from D post-party was also positive, from her friends. Some of them are trying to "friend" me on FB. Hops is also right about the PTSD, in that I have an anxiety-warning-system alarm that activates all the old tapes about how I won't "fit in", I'm not dressed "right" (because mom dressed me according to her ignorance of this kind of activity), I'll say something awful (because mom thought things I said were awful...), oh yes - and all those people are automatically going to be snobs, look down their noses at me, make fun of me... and I'll see mom was right in the first place: I never should've gone. "People" are bad. ESPECIALLY people who have fun and enjoy themselves.

Projection is such a perverse thing. This is complicated for me, by the fact that my Dad liked social things - he liked to have fun, the way "other" people had fun. Oh, don't you know? My Dad was evil incarnate... because he felt the need to connect with people outside of the family... he "should've" been there 24/7, when he wasn't working... he was a bad father; didn't care about us kids... [That wasn't just an implied message from my mom; it was explicitly stated. Over & over. About how irresponsible, uncaring, etc he was... because he "escaped" from my mom's constant ego-battering, nagging, negativity and hostility.]

Voila. Guilt over having a good time. Anxiety about being one of "those" people who enjoy connecting with others and having a good time... and over time, I suppose that also develops into the same fear of intimacy -- especially since it was always torture, brainwashing, projection, and being openly criticized and humiliated -- being "intimate" with my mom. Talk about sticking your head in the lion's mouth - over & over!!! I'm reminded of FW's advice: sometimes it's appropriate to run when a lion is trying to eat you.

Sorry if this is rather incoherent; when the associations of things past & present click together for me they go really fast and in no particular order. I have to sort & organize it later... or I miss things.

EDIT IN: I almost missed this: "sometimes it's appropriate to run when a lion is trying to eat you" applies to my mother the Nlion..... NOT my sweet, gentle, playful, doting hubs. And he's not automatically "bad" either; doesn't fit Nmom's "profile" that she concocted for my Dad... because he's totally stuck to me, like glue - UNLESS we're out at a social gathering; and even then, he's not far away. He's that protective. It irritates me sometimes, but now that I understand it, it doesn't seem so annoying.

[mudpuppy]

I feel horrendously uneasy/closed off, can't think of a thing to say to him.....

Relax. He probably isn't listening anyway.

mud

[Guest]

  @Mud

That is another one of the most important things I've learned. 

[sKePTiKal]

ah.... mud! how right you are. I hope you know I'm still laughing, tho... (good timing!!)

Isn't it weird (rhetorical question) that we're programmed to constantly worry what someone ELSE is thinking about us, whether they're ready to pounce with a criticism, a cut-down, just another plop of yucky emotional crap??? All because of that one (or more) N in our life? It's a problem we don't have to have -- with other people -- yet we do.

Maybe that's a sort zen-koan answer to Boat's question about what this topic of play, flirting, intimacy... has to do with voicelessness.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi NLS...

no, there's no tight definition of what this topic is about - we've even digressed into how the concept of play (which I've been thinking about again, lately) comes into thoughts, feelings... our attitudes about relationships - what works/what doesn't - what we want to change, etc. For me, how I function in a relationship is built on all the other crap about me that is more or less dysfunctional, on any given day.

I get to protect myself until I feel ready to be vulnerable.

I think your decision here gets very close to the heart of the topic, in fact.

Like tt says, what we practice a lot starts to feel natural... our comfortzone... us. I'm gonna guess that a few of us - I know I have had this experience - I will think I'm safe and protecting myself... in the midst of flirting, or "play"... and then suddenly - without noticing it happening - find myself vulnerable. Trapped. Cornered. Forced into an either/or decision that is totally no-win. OOPS. I don't like these situations.

I don't have much practice being vulnerable; at least not enough, where I can truly trust that I will be safe, seen, heard and taken care of***. So, it's not built into my feelings... not easily recognized... I don't consciously know the various things that go into the "recipe" either... where yes, I still have my boundaries - but they're not so high & inpenetrable & formidable that the perceived message is "go away, I vant to be alone" - and I'm also feeling safe enough that I can be vulnerable... and still "play".

***
"being taken care of" seems to be new theme with me. I used to joke, that hubs & I needed a live-in mommy... but it's less funny in the context of this topic. I do think, this is an indication I have some needs not getting met. Is it possible to crave something that scares the crap out of oneself? Isn't "being taken care of" the same as vulnerability & intimacy?? Or am I being emotionally naive again??

[Meh]

Well I know that both my mother and grandmother give horrible horrible advice related to romance. More noticeable though is the over all lack of valuable wisdom they have to offer in this area.

Well except that my grandmother said "date nerds"......maybe that was good advice I'm not certain.

[sKePTiKal]

Oh, tt... I thought THIS was very, very, very, very wise:

If his inner man doesn't feel safe with you, you will rarely see him.

Very helpful, too.

NLS: question for you to think about! (It's ok, if you don't want to answer here).

Do you sometimes feel as if your mom wants to choose your guys -- so that you end up exactly in the kind of relationship she's in? So that misery will have company?  If so, then ask another question: WHY has she stay married to this person, if he is all you say he is? What does that say, about how she sees herself? Does she REALLY believe that women don't have the right to say no to a man's sexual advances? (yes... one can tell hubby no, too - contrary to some old belief-systems).

Trying to answer those questions, might give you some clues to just how bad her advice to you, really is... and also why she's so forthcoming with it.


Now, my own question for input from y'all... WHY is it, some kind of girls' social sport to gripe about, criticize, and generally put down our hubbys? I can't seem to escape this in my 3D connections lately. Yes, I "play" too... because I'm trying to find solutions to the problems with hubs and me that seem - well, downright silly and should be easy to change. But it doesn't feel "fair" to me to engage in that whole thing. He has begun to help in the kitchen more - will take care of the dishes, for instance without prompting or asking. Just because it needs to be done. (Progress!) He helps recycle the stacks of magazines and junk mail that he's responsible for bringing into the house now, too.

These people (with a couple exceptions) don't seem all that seriously upset about the relationship or interested in changing it. They'd rather just let off steam with a good round of "ain't they awful"... is this some kind of female bonding ritual? Do those even exist? My brain has a memory of being told that women form relationships with each other this way, working in the kitchen, minding the babes & putting up the harvest. Of course, in my lifelong avoidance of female friends... it hasn't been that way for me. I'm lucky to have any female friends, really. So I am asking a serious question - because I don't know.

Comments? Insights?

[Guest]

PR

WHY is it, some kind of girls' social sport to gripe about, criticize, and generally put down our hubbys?

To stop other women stealing them? ("He's so useless, you wouldn't want him".)
 
Or to encourage other women to have a go at stealing them ("I don't want him, he's useless"), so that the griper can be free to choose another one?

Or because they see men as a separate species? One to regard as the enemy?

Whatever the reason, I find it off-putting; I don't like it. I pretend to not be affronted by such stuff but I take notice of who does it and don't take part.

How would these women like it if they heard their hubby talking about them with their mates in similar terms?

Soapbox over.