Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on May 14, 2012, 01:02:04 AM
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Shame has some association with child neglect. Basically many people here have expressed that they experienced some form of child neglect as a result of the parental "personality disorder", or meanness, or hatred, or abuse, or humiliation (shame creating), or brain-washing, or lying, devaluation of the child by the parents, causing the child to feel insignificant.
Yeah I'm an adult, not a kid any longer, there is however a permanent socialization process of being shamed and knowing shame, feeling shameful.
I just "googled" it, so some results:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/v45266w752678249/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w6r28172x881k275/
http://www.psychsight.com/ar-shame.html
http://www.zentactics.com/shame.html
http://primal-page.com/childabu.htm
http://cmx.sagepub.com/content/10/4/364.short
http://cmx.sagepub.com/content/10/4/350.short
http://cmx.sagepub.com/content/10/4/377.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpp.331/abstract
http://www.childwelfare.gov/can/impact/longterm/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.1996.tb01832.x/abstract
Child Neglect/ Sexual abuse/Shame/Narcissism---sort of all goes together
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There are some interesting articles here. Thanks for sharing.
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Yr Welcome, Well, I just randomly selected a few, probably at some level I need to go inward and try to understand it a little bit more.
I'm not sure what the process is for that. I mean the inner-child stuff has an internal-work type process. Shame must also have it's system of getting to know it better.
So I guess I sort of put it here to remind myself to work on it. Also figured it was relevant for other people.
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http://drjanebolton.wordpress.com/2009/02/06/shame-activators/
http://www.forhealing.org/shame.html-------Excessive shame believes that he/she is defective or should not exist
http://www.healthyplace.com/relationships/joy2meu/heart-break-of-romantic-relationship-facet-3/
My prior experiences with my inner child were mostly positive. I didn't encounter the concept of shame very much.
So how does a child relate to the concept of shame anyways....the child just experiences as made to feel that "she is bad'?
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Talk about coincidence. I was just checking the news on CNN, and came across this clip:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/living/2012/04/13/natpkg-orig-ideas-brene-brown.cnn
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So how does a child relate to the concept of shame anyways....the child just experiences as made to feel that "she is bad'?
From what the woman in the clip is saying, it makes the child feel worthless, like he/she doesn't belong, or isn't fit for this world. That's certainly the effect my N mother's actions had on me. It's taken years of therapy to shake those feelings, though some of it is still there. I think that once it enters your brain, it's there in some form for life. I don't think I'll ever feel 100% worthy. What you learn as a child is very hard to un-learn, unfortunately.
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With frequent shaming, a child can feel that IF ONLY they were someone else - more perfect, more beautiful, more lovable, more ____________ - then Mama would love them, instead of essentially excluding the child from "the family" via that shaming. The child's "self-support-system" moves inward - excluding the rest of the world. Outwardly, they're usually excessively eager to please, to be helpful and useful... another strategy for gaining that love/recognition.
Sometimes. One example.
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There is also a distinction between healthy shame (i.e having a conscience) vs. toxic shame (making the child feel worthless for honest mistakes). I have alot of shame for normal mistakes that I shouldn't even care about, trivial stuff. To this day, I have shame around getting my car repaired or god forbid I get a parking ticket, or as a kid, when I spilled something on my school uniform that would require extra care or cleaning. I was made to feel shame for missing school or not looking or feeling right.
Its one thing to hold a child accountable for when they lied, but still continue to love them and another to make someone feel unloved because they spilled their chef boyardee on a white blouse. Whats sad is that even as adults we have to reprogram ourselves after this nonsense.
:(
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It is sad - and it's not easy at all. It still sneaks up on me at the worst possible times, and I'm still not (always) quite able to recognize it for what it is before it starts to push me into the self-sabotage cycle. A person likes to think - I'm cured - it's gone!!!! and won't be an issue anymore. SIGH... nope, it's an ongoing thing, it's fluid and hides in a lot of dark, little cubby holes... and the pattern, after all, is built of neurotransmitters, connections, and bio-processes in our brains. Still able to be changed... but it takes a LOT of attention, presence in the moment, and awareness.
One o' these days... I'll cross the tipping point... and it'll seem like a thing of the past, instead of an on-going struggle.
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So how does a child relate to the concept of shame anyways....the child just experiences as made to feel that "she is bad'?
From what the woman in the clip is saying, it makes the child feel worthless, like he/she doesn't belong, or isn't fit for this world. That's certainly the effect my N mother's actions had on me. It's taken years of therapy to shake those feelings, though some of it is still there. I think that once it enters your brain, it's there in some form for life. I don't think I'll ever feel 100% worthy. What you learn as a child is very hard to un-learn, unfortunately.
Um hum, especially if there is an emotional memory and belief about self AND also a habituated patterning in the brain at the same time.
I ask about how the child relates to shame because it hasn't really come up in my inner child work. It's sort of hard to pinpoint although I know it's there. I think maybe the inner child doesn't differentiate my adult self somewhat does --just having a feeling or experience vs. internalizing and maybe not even feeling it.
I think there are obvious shame points maybe. Possibly much of it is subconscious? Maybe even more subconscious than the most of the inner child stuff. Or maybe it's just a different age than what I normally connect with in the inner-child work.
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There is also a distinction between healthy shame (i.e having a conscience) vs. toxic shame (making the child feel worthless for honest mistakes). I have alot of shame for normal mistakes that I shouldn't even care about, trivial stuff. To this day, I have shame around getting my car repaired or god forbid I get a parking ticket, or as a kid, when I spilled something on my school uniform that would require extra care or cleaning. I was made to feel shame for missing school or not looking or feeling right.
Its one thing to hold a child accountable for when they lied, but still continue to love them and another to make someone feel unloved because they spilled their chef boyardee on a white blouse. Whats sad is that even as adults we have to reprogram ourselves after this nonsense.
:(
Um, hum that sort of thing is sad, where the adult over reacts to little things like stains. If the "mental illness" at the same is preventing the parent from showing the child regular love I guess it is a bad combo. I've seen my brother do this with my nephews. My brother will just harp on the kids about being grubby and dirty instead of just saying come on guys you need to go take a bath and brush your teeth right now. My brother will talk badly about his kids right in front of them to other people. One of them is totally addicted to video games. Instead of my brother making sure at the start that the kid knew he was only going to get a limited amount of time doing video games everyday--my brother allows him to do it because the kids aren't engaged in anything else. Then my brother complains about it and will tell the kid that he is lazy. My brother will basically blame his kids for his own lack of parenting skills/interest.
Gee, I wonder where he got that from.
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Went for a walk today after I got off computer. Considered the shame thing. Not much came up for me though. Hard for me to put my finger on like there are not any specific incidents that stand out glaringly as the issue. Instead possibly it's more generalized. Like the difference between local/general anesthetic. Shame/disassociation/denial or whatever it all is sometimes is more of a whole cloud.
Yeah, thought I would come here read and write a little, consider SHAME and something would come up but no not really getting it.
Oh well.
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Um, still not much arising around the Shame issue. I thought I would just state it and then maybe something would come out of it.
My innerchild has showed up out of the blue but it didn't really seem to be related to shame and I have a hard time understanding if it even relates to the innerchild.
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I think my Inner Child is standing up and shouting: "I will NOT be shamed into silence! I am ANGRY about the abuse and I'm NOT taking it anymore!"
Bones
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I think my Inner Child is standing up and shouting: "I will NOT be shamed into silence! I am ANGRY about the abuse and I'm NOT taking it anymore!"
Bones
That is cool.
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Just thinking of the toxic emotion cocktail of it all.
Few years ago I got on a ferry-boat. As the boat was leaving the dock I felt a panic attack coming on because I was "stuck on the boat".
I know this is a version of "claustrophobia" something that I hadn't really had a lot of.
http://phobias.about.com/od/introductiontophobias/a/claustroprof.htm
I looked at this article and noticed how they say they are somewhat clueless about the cause of it. I think: "come on how dumb can they be"....and I also see that there is the suggestion to give anti-depressants for it.
For the things that they say "We don't know what causes it but taking antidepressants might help"---Errhhh really?
I know what causes it, it's anxiety and the feeling of powerlessness, the memory of being controlled by others and not having one's own will and fear of not getting the care needed.
I don't think it has anything to do with shame.
Then on the other hand maybe I should explore shame in relation to other co-occurring (would that be concurring?)
emotions.
Does shame and anxiety go together?
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http://www.paulmelrose.com/shame-and-anxiety/
Huh, I don't know could I come up with an algorithm for the emotional cocktail that SUCKS and also an algorithm for the emotional cocktail that doesn't suck?
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=98099
Just interesting stuff: http://emotionsblog.history.qmul.ac.uk/?paged=3
- Shame
- low grade continuous Anxiety
- Panic Attack
- "Depression"
- Stress
- Stuckness
- Discouragement
- lies and confusion
I guess I figure since SHAME itself is a little elusive to me. Maybe another emotion can access it. Like fear.
Is shame really an emotion?
THE ROOT OF DYSFUNCTIONS IN FAMILY
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/shame-the-quintessential-emotion/all/1/
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Okay so if I was going to make an emotional flowchart in MS Word and print it out on paper. What should I remember to include?
I don't think emotions are rules or that the human being is as plain as a flowchart but there is something about maybe putting it on paper that is like "Naming it".....If I name it then it becomes more tangible and maybe even over-come-able
Like Shame itself should it be broken down into smaller sub-areas.
You know flow charts, with circles and boxes and connecting lines and arrows. Because that is sort of what emotions are. Like all these tangled up things that are invisible but we feel them and they impact our lives.
So why not conceptualize it on paper in boxes. There it is, inside that box. That is what people do for war strategy probably, that is what people do for business strategy, football strategy. Why not?
Okay, any ideas.
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Just algorithm examples that have emotions in them
One with humor:
http://lahistoriadelamusicarock.blogspot.com/2008/12/fear-new-yorks-alright-if-you-like.html
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=fear+algorithm&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1AFAB_enUS484US484&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&tbnid=fCn1C5slu6qorM:&imgrefurl=http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/hea/18/6/614.html&docid=7NBWh3C1yb8CXM&imgurl=http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/hea/18/6/images/hea_18_6_614_fig3a.gif&w=374&h=324&ei=6OW_T8f2FYbMmAWe0NmuCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=234&vpy=154&dur=8891&hovh=209&hovw=241&tx=148&ty=94&sig=100369311118756180368&page=1&tbnh=159&tbnw=184&start=0&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:75
http://www.info.gov.hk/aids/pdf/g190htm/05.htm
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I think my Inner Child is standing up and shouting: "I will NOT be shamed into silence! I am ANGRY about the abuse and I'm NOT taking it anymore!"
Bones
That is cool.
Thanks, Starlight!
Bones
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Just thinking of the toxic emotion cocktail of it all.
Few years ago I got on a ferry-boat. As the boat was leaving the dock I felt a panic attack coming on because I was "stuck on the boat".
I know this is a version of "claustrophobia" something that I hadn't really had a lot of.
http://phobias.about.com/od/introductiontophobias/a/claustroprof.htm
I looked at this article and noticed how they say they are somewhat clueless about the cause of it. I think: "come on how dumb can they be"....and I also see that there is the suggestion to give anti-depressants for it.
For the things that they say "We don't know what causes it but taking antidepressants might help"---Errhhh really?
I know what causes it, it's anxiety and the feeling of powerlessness, the memory of being controlled by others and not having one's own will and fear of not getting the care needed.
I don't think it has anything to do with shame.
Then on the other hand maybe I should explore shame in relation to other co-occurring (would that be concurring?)
emotions.
Does shame and anxiety go together?
I would say that TOXIC shame and anxiety are intertwined BIG TIME!
Bones
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Per your question about flowcharts - yep; it does sort of help me see what comes first... how I react with a set emotional response (habits)... and how it all gets so tangled up in the beginning. Boxes with arrows illustrate my journals, when I finally "feel/decode" a recognizable pattern... an emotional habit.
Perhaps you have no connection to shame-emotions, for a reason Star. Perhaps you were never singled out as the "target" for your mom's blame/shame; the Neglectful style of parenting could explain that. Children of alcoholics usually have some level of shame-issues to work through. Sometimes, they're very complex and it takes awhile to revisit the original emotional wound. But sometimes, level-headed people (like you seem to be) settle the issue so quickly and practically... that the moment is lost to memory and it's not REALLY an issue to work with.
In my case, I was unconsciously choosing to feel almost any other emotion, than shame... anxiety - because if I could be one step ahead of criticism (perfectionism) maybe I wouldn't be shamed. Anger/constant irritation/restlessness was another old standby... because it was the opposite feeling of the total helplessness/powerlessness of shame... and then there was the weird thing I do, of working myself into complete total physical/mental/emotional exhaustion & never allowing myself to relax, enjoy ANYthing, or to have fun... to do things with other people and just be open to whatever it turned out to be.
In an odd way, shame is much more connected (for me) with unacknowledged grief... they sorta go hand in hand as deadly/toxic partners.
Unconsciously, all those things were due to an unrecognized, unknown 16-ton anvil of grief/shame that I was carrying around with me... which set up the conditions for a "secret belief" that I wasn't worthy of enjoying myself - or other people, caring for myself... that no one would want to be around me. Unconsciously, my behaviors also worked to insure that this particular status quo was maintained. One the behaviors I'm still working on, is automatically rejecting people's invitations to get together. Or, giving people way more than they bargained for (usually snippy & sarcastic) when they show any interest in me.
It took a few a flowcharts to figure how all that emotional stuff worked together to perpetuate my relationship to my whole life, all my relationships, and the world we all live in. There were sub-sections - chunks of things - that helped support my whole "at arm's length", chief-observer & people watcher, "noticer", and advice-laden, seemingly "know-it-all"....... non-participating in living, human.
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Hhrumm.
Well, still keeping it warm for now though, I've got nothing to add.
Found a princess skirt and I'm wearing it to sleep in. First princess skirt ever and I'm way too old for one, makes me wonder how ridiculous really. Smile.
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Hhrumm.
Well, still keeping it warm for now though, I've got nothing to add.
Found a princess skirt and I'm wearing it to sleep in. First princess skirt ever and I'm way too old for one, makes me wonder how ridiculous really. Smile.
Your Inner Child is saying: "I'm a Princess" and she deserves the attention she never got years ago. Have fun being able to play! :)
Bones
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Thanks Bones N' Phoenix,
Bones: Um, hum. Know what? I'm watching this DVD from the library about the history of beer. Says something about "THE CULTURE OF PLEASURE" and how when German's first brought the concept of beer gardens to America the AMERICANS were amazed/shocked or dumbfounded all of the above about the idea that Pleasure was an important and valid ritual.
Also got a DVD on cheese making--not so much that I will do it.
Guess the skirt is a little indulgence, it's used pink silk and I washed it, came out wrinkly but I don't care, I just wear it to bed anyhow, maybe it's sort of bohemian now that it's wrinkled--sort of like if a princess went over Niagara Falls.
Phoenix: Shame and unacknowledged Grief????
Hum--Culture of Pleasure
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Thanks Bones N' Phoenix,
Bones: Um, hum. Know what? I'm watching this DVD from the library about the history of beer. Says something about "THE CULTURE OF PLEASURE" and how when German's first brought the concept of beer gardens to America the AMERICANS were amazed/shocked or dumbfounded all of the above about the idea that Pleasure was an important and valid ritual.
Also got a DVD on cheese making--not so much that I will do it.
Guess the skirt is a little indulgence, it's used pink silk and I washed it, came out wrinkly but I don't care, I just wear it to bed anyhow, maybe it's sort of bohemian now that it's wrinkled--sort of like if a princess went over Niagara Falls.
Phoenix: Shame and unacknowledged Grief????
Hum--Culture of Pleasure
Hey, Starlight.
From my perspective.....after the HELL we endured growing up with N's, I think we've earned the right to indulge in a little fun.
Bones
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Yup, unacknowledged grief.
My mind was able to concoct a lot of different way to avoid accepting the heartbreaking realization that my mom was never, ever going to see me - as me - and be happy about who I am, what I've done, and be proud of me. So many of my conscious/unconscious choices were actually motivated by the desire to run away from that realization. I guess that's a pretty good working definition of neurotic, huh?
And of course, one feels shame too via that realization - as in, I must be a horrible, awful, worthless excuse for a human if my OWN MOTHER can't connect to me in a positive, mutually caring relationship. That's really the source, I think, of all kinds of self-harm habits -- a form of self-punishment for screwing up BEING, so badly... that the only way my mom relates to me is when I'm mothering HER.
I can "tag" this particular life-experience for a lot of mysterious, unintentional (at least to my mind), ways I've chosen to deliberately limit my self, my life, not allowing myself to have fun, take care of myself... even not considering being interested in and attempting new things. It's like a silent scream of agony -- grief + shame = self-punishment... or the hair shirt syndrome... or self-flagellation... trying to expiate my "sins" and find a way to be accepted by someone who doesn't even see me any other than an object; a label - always "MY daughter"... not "Amber", a person in her own right.
I floundered in that cesspool for a long time; my anxiety levels kept going up; I was unconsciously creating ongoing high emotional stress levels in my life -- and there was no escape from it. Until with the help of my T, I was able to get far enough away from the feelings that I couldn't name; wouldn't feel - that kept the perpetual cycle going and actually look at what I was doing.
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Mornin, still not awake yet, working on the coffee.
Some emotions need to get space away from and others to "get in touch with".
Ah well, It sounds like you had a therapist that actually knew what the heck they were doing.
I guess there is a limit on how far a person can get on their own without a good T.
Pffrhhh...well, yeah that all makes a lot of sense P.
I guess for myself I've proved that I know shame exists but that it's sort of elusive or hard to comprehend somehow. Now I'm not sure if it's one of those things to be looked at closer or farther away.
Anyways I better get going for now. It was a miracle that I woke up this morning. Two alarm clocks both of the apparently broken.
And a nightmare that I was pulling a needle out of my hand--(see the movie Black Swan has given me nightmares)
About 2-3 hours sleep max. But I'm caffeinated.
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Black Swan was a tough movie for me. One of those horror movies I couldn't make myself look away from -- and then I reacted with some serious, slow, cold anger.
Your point about looking at an emotion up close & personal, or far away is a great one. I guess there's a time and place to do both of those - as needed. (It might not even be necessary for some people & some things.) Yes, I can't believe how completely lucky I was in finding, connecting with my T. I was actually pointed toward another one, first, but the description of her as more "structured" (whatever was meant by that) clicked with me. What I found out much later, was that she was extremely patient and gentle and warm... and very, very strong; a true amazon. I'm still rather in awe of her tai chi sword form. She even "let me go" on T breaks a couple of times... warming up to the "real" work I needed to do. I needed to learn, experientially, how to process my own feelings and integrate that with my stronger intellectual, left-brain self.
For me, that was simply FEEL and wallow in those feelings until I was done; bored; tired of it all. I'd never really been allowed that -- not even as a small kid. It was always: "You shouldn't feel that way; feel like this instead."
My therapy was, objectively, a very simple process. She basically shot holes in all my assumptions about myself, starting with the self-image that I was simultaneously too intensely emotional and yet so intellectually Mr. Spock-like that I could shift into some absolute objectivity that would reveal the hidden "truth" of situations. Both of those were wrong. It was a type of self-soothing delusion that served as a mechanism for me to not ever really "feel" my feelings... rather analyze them, talk about them... from a distance -- but because those feelings were all-too-personal (and I judged them as being "wrong" feelings as if feelings could be right or wrong)... I wasn't able to get far enough away from them, to see how they were an essential part of my self-harm cycle. I needed someone else to mark, mirror, reflect back to me what I was doing... without imposing their judgements or personal values or "shoulds" on me. Even monks - professional meditators - debrief with their teachers about things like this... self-doubt can be a real serious paralyzing handicap and most of the time is totally unfair. (It's one of those hangover-effects from certain kinds of parents...)
It was kinda like emotional push-hands. When you're working with that partner, and all of a sudden you instinctively (almost physically) just "know" that you could shift 1/4 inch in that direction... and gain the advantage... or improve your own defense. Enough practice like that begins to germinate as inner confidence and emotional "strength" -- i.e., control over oneself. That's the ONE thing Nparents don't ever acknowledge that we have... because in their deluded world view only THEY can control. Bullshit.
So, in some ways, my T was the perfect the "substitute" mother. Her "discipline" of me made sense. Yet she never tried to control me. It was more a negotiated agreement. And on reflection, I can see how my Nmom was simply incapable and totally without insight/skills to deal with someone like me. I have a really strong-personality daughter, too. A mega-challenge kid... and we've learned from each other, a lot of things. My mom in some ways is like a body without anyone inhabiting it... and she's got this insatiable need to have other people fill her up... so she can pretend to be real. That's what she calls loving, caring about other people. I really think she fits Borderline Personality profile, pretty good.
I still take some of her phone calls. I find myself feeling like I'm dealing with a "problem child" who refuses to take the advice she's asked for and is therefore really scared... and I care a lot less than I would admit in mixed company. So many other people return the favor of caring... so I spend that "currency" on them instead.
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Okay, I know this is a weird fantasy thing. I don't even really want children but I think about how other people have family and I am a "child-free" as in free-to-be-child-free....or whatever person.
I think about what it would be like if I were to have my own family and how I would feel shame in context to if I had to tell my relatives that I was going to have my own children. The thought of telling my mother that repulses me--or any of my relatives.
Both shame and repulsion. I know that I'm not really in a position to have a family nor do I really want to do it. I just find it odd that the thought itself the idea--of thinking it through the---"what would it be like realm"--trails off to this place where I tell my relatives and it's horrible. Or I move to another continent or at least the opposite end of the country and never again speak to my FOO and they know nothing about my personal life. That I keep my life a secret.
That is one scenario where I can find a feeling and concept of shame. It is very odd, many many people could not ever understand this ever.
Can I really blame everything on my FOO?
Am I blaming too much on them? I mean I ask myself this.
At the same time why would I have such odd-ball unusual feelings. Am I crazy or is it the sickness of my family. A feeling is just a feeling it doesn't make me crazy I know that.
Sometimes "normal" people scare me. :)