Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: KayZee on May 24, 2012, 11:38:52 AM
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Hi all,
I'm so sorry. I've been on here so sporadically lately and when I am, I've often been too emotionally bombarded and mixed up to post anything. Been feeling pretty antisocial and fearful of people in real life too, leading to many marital arguments (hubby has developed this whole gang of friends in the year since we've moved to our new town and I haven't really clicked with their wives or anyone else for that matter). It feels a bit like everything's unraveling all at once. The more I stay away from people, the harder it becomes to reach back out.
Anyway, I'm desperate for some advice. I've been feeling lately like I just can't take it (NM's endless head games and covert attacks) anymore. Spent the past month questioning whether I want to ask her for a temporary separation. I decided--ultimately, like I always do--that I'll just suck it up and hold NM at an emotional distance, try to stake out my boundaries and meet in person with her and enabling co-N Father at a bare minimum, mostly on obligatory days like holidays.
So I invited NM and Co-N Father to my daughter's third birthday party on June 29. Even though I don't want them there (NM acted like such a monster at her second B-day). I guess you could say I caved to pressure and social norms. I wanted to hide the depths of my family dysfunction from my in-laws who will also be at the party. And I wanted to invite my dear aunt and uncle (NM is very jealous when I ask them to come visit and not her). At any rate, I already felt like I was testing my limits by inviting NM to my daughter's party.
In response to the invitation, NM writes, "Are you celebrating your son's first birthday (it's on June 9), if so we'd like to participate." So to be clear, she did not RSVP to the party I invited her to--in fact, she made no mention of it--and immediately launched in on what felt like an accusation. How could I throw a party for my daughter and not my son? How could I not invite her up twice in two weeks?
I wrote back and told NM, "No we're not having a party for our son this year. Just this once, because he's so little, we'll probably roll him into our daughter's party."
NM responds, "Well, just a heads up. We're going to drive up on his birthday anyway."
Am I overreacting to be upset? I DON'T WANT HER here on my son's birthday. I DIDN'T INVITE HER. I DON'T WANT TO SEE HER TWICE IN TWO WEEKS. Hell, I barely want to see her the one time. WHY can't she respond to a straightforward question with a straightforward answer? WHY does she need to ENCROACH ALL THE TIME? The honest truth is: I DON'T WANT A RELATIONSHIP WITH HER AT ALL. But I keep going through the motions, because I'm afraid of setting her off further. And because I don't want to have to explain why I disowned my family to normal people. I don't want to confuse my kids. I don't want to embarrass my husband (who seems perpetually embarrassed of me anyway).
I'm so sorry, guys, for the rant. I'm feeling so alone. I don't know how to say No to NM. (What is a good way to say "no" to her? In a way that she will accept?) I don't know how to feel better.
I'd be so grateful for any advice or words of wisdom. This is the worst I've felt in years:(
Kay x
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Also. . . I found out that after I didn't immediately respond to her invite-herself "we're coming up to see you" text, she went full triangulation and called other members of my family and told them I am "withholding her grandchildren from her." That I "don't let her see them." etc. I haven't even said no yet, and she's already hedging her bets, manipulating the situation and trying to make me look crazy/angry. I can't take this.
K x
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Hi ((((((((((KayZee)))))))) - I hear you loud and clear. Rant away. Its Ok, thats why we are here.
Its very complicated between husband, two little ones, new move, friends (or lack thereof) and not wanting to disappoint in-laws etc. Its very frustrating. You sound like you are being straightforward and wish desperately the N could be too....I think one of the resentments of being a daughter of N has to be juggling all the non-sense and the triangulation and crazy making.
A couple of suggestions:
Its a third bday party - can you put the kids in one room or at a table where they have activities (coloring or crafts, maybe a clown?) and maybe set a table (with namecards) for adults? Maybe you could put your family together - encouraging your Nm to sit with your AUnt/Uncle and put your inlaws at another table. It doesnt have to be obvious so that people feel excluded, just a little separate. Or maybe have each one of the family members to help out a little - someone to come early to set up, someone to stay late to clean up and have little duties at the party, one to put candles on the cake, another to take kids outside, whatever little "directing" you can do to distract. My suggestion is to do a little diversion, but make people feel useful and included.
As for the sons birthday, tell her you have been invited out, no mention of "who" and just go out with him. The zoo, chuck e. cheese, or maybe a picnic in the park. Tell her she can celebrate that at the other party.
I remember the times it hurt me to say NO because I knew I would miss out on other opportunities (in your case, your kids do), but every time I have tried again, I have mostly regretted it. I know there are some people who established boundaries and it did help and LC can be enough, but dont be upset with yourself if this is not the case for you. Its different for everybody and whatever is right for you is OK too. As for worrying about the outsiders, take heart, you sound like a very kind and caring person, stand up for yourself and continue to do so -people will see that there are people out there will see you are perfectly nice, wonderful stable person who come from dysfunctional families and have chosen a higher path, one of concern, caring and detachment from negativity. I think it more acceptable not to get along in a positive, constructive way than you might realize right now and so find ways to make detachment positive, be positive about it and no one will think otherwise.
As for saying NO - I believe in/prefer to just be assertive, but if you are still fearful, maybe easing into it nicely would help, she'll eventually get the message. For example, say something like, Thanks for wanting to see (sons name) on his birhtday, but weve been invited out, so will see you on June 29th. Be nice - say "thanks but No", or "I appreacite this, but No", its a softer NO, but still a NO. Eventually, you wont have to add the frosting before saying No.
Now about that hubby - maybe try a double date with one of his friends as a couple? Or maybe one of your kids friends has a mother you like? Is there anyone in that group, that seems assertive or has some qualities you might like to emulate? Maybe asking someone to coffee might be a good start. You might make a new friend - you sound like you need someone there for you. Whenever I make new friends, I am always thrilled with the prospect that I can put my past behind me and move forward for new experiences.
For some reason, your post really resonated with me - I usually sympathize with everyone here, but dont offer much advice... so just use whats helpful and discard what is not. All the best to you KayZee and son, hubby and daughter. Ales
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Ugh! I can relate to this. My NM used to do this all the time. She would never set foot in any of my houses herself out of anger that I had "bigger, nicer" homes than she did, so instead would call and insist that we come over to visit on her orders, or call and tell me that she was sending my father over to drop off something that I didn't need (meaning, sending him to spy on us and report back if we had any new cars, upgrades to the house, etc). I finally started telling her that I had other plans and wouldn't be home. Unfortunately, though, it didn't work. She would reply with, "That's okay, I'll send your father over anyway, and he can leave (whatever item) at the door." I finally made the decision to go NC. It doesn't work for everyone, but it's worked for me, somewhat, anyway. There is still major stress that goes along with that as Ns will never go down without a fight, but it was the only thing I could do.
As for your in-laws, do you have a good enough relationship with them that you could just tell them the truth? I finally did that with my in-laws. I don't have any children, so there were never occasions where they would have met, but they did keep asking us if we could all get together. So, hard as it was, I finally told them that my mother has mental health issues, and they were very understanding.
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Ditto Justkathy!
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I can relate to the situation of the N "inviting herself" whether it's convenient or not. :P It's a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS!!!!
In my situation, I live in a condominium development where parking is restricted and visitors are required to park in the designated visitor area, which this N REFUSED to do because it was "too inconvenient". When she showed up, after I had already told her NO, she got told that she was banned from the property and the next time she showed up, uninvited, the police and the tow truck would be called and she would be hauled outta there for trespassing and illegal parking!
The suggestion I'm trying to make is that you could (a) not be home when she shows up or (b) do what I did and have her banned from the housing development if you can. It doesn't matter how many times you say NO to an N, they simply REFUSE to hear you! That's when drastic measures come in to play.
Bones
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I agree with Bones. I would tell her that you have plans for that day, and follow through. Go somewhere, so when she arrives, no one is home.
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I agree with Bones. I would tell her that you have plans for that day, and follow through. Go somewhere, so when she arrives, no one is home.
Thanks, JustKathy! The N can't force herself on you if you're not there. Just be sure that you don't tip your hand and tell her where you're going. That way, she can't follow you.
Bones
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Not being home would =a day without mother's presence
If it was my mother it would also = retaliation and bratt-ish-ness
Hum, but yeah I think Bones has come up with a good suggestion there it's evasive.
It sends the msg. "I can make plans without you", " I may not be waiting at home whenever you want me to be".
"We really want a day to ourselves"
I think as a family, you/husband and your children deserve to have some birthdays that are void of the emotional trauma. She is being a rude guest.
Good luck!
As an adult I have realized how my mother has lied to me and in very harmful selfish ways. I didn't comprehend it when I was a kid.
So sometimes as an adult if I'm feeling really desperate I allow myself the experience of lying to my mother. :D
Also if you can afford it, go on a roadtrip some long weekend at some point, You sound overwhelmed--- just by yourself to a bed and breakfast and just chill out. Order pancakes and buy a bunch of flowers and go for a bike ride or something.
Lie, say that you have had the flu and won't be doing a cake and celebration. Say that somebody bruised their elbow and so everybody is keeping in low key due to bad spirits. Say that the dog had fleas and the house is being fumigated. Termites. Ants.
Wasps. Bats in the attic. Rats.
?I don't know. The reality of these family relationships is that they are hard to break. There is full contact or no contact or minimal contact. Then there is the question of the quality of the relationship when there is some contact. It's as if we all hope that we could have better relatives and better "quality of contact" :) Coming up with new terms here.
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Ales: Thank you so much!
I love the idea of splitting everyone up a little bit, seating wise, when my daughter's party comes. My NM gets so territorial of me and aggressive whenever there's a crowd (and particularly when my in-laws are around). She actually stares daggers at me when I talk to anyone else. Or she'll get kind of physically intimidating, wedging herself between me and whoever I'm speaking to--forcing herself into my line of vision. The more I can keep her away from me the better!
Thanks too for the advice about making friends. I really haven't devoted too much time to getting out there (I need to). I've just been feeling so socially awkward. Like, honestly I feel kind of slow when I'm around new people, like I'm a few beats behind everyone. It's like I get so panicked, I totally shut down and then I beat myself up about it. Perhaps I've been a bit hard on myself though. I do have a playdate scheduled with a new mommy friend who is very nice next Monday.
Maybe too I'm feeling a little bit gun shy. I fell in one of those platonic-love-at-first-sight instant friendships when I first moved up here (this should have been a warning sign that I was getting into one of those questionable l friendships that was sort of one-sided and a lot like the dysfunction I grew up with). Long story short, everything went sour. Once this woman realized I was incapable of helping her in the way she wanted to be helped, she repeatedly stood me up and more or less dropped contact with me. And ever since, I've been feeling a little bit doubtful and closed-off. I supposed the hurt inner child in me wants to use it as an excuse: "See? Why should I open up and trust anyone? I did that and look how it turned out. Everyone uses or abandons me like my parents did." But the more rational side of me knows I should persevere.
Could all be an indication that I need to focus on more healing work before I try to go out and be a social butterfly. Maybe it's okay to hold back and be on my own for a while. Just need to quiet the inner critic (the NM who resides in my head) that says "nobody likes me" or "I will never fit in." These are the thoughts that I battle when I'm feeling solitary.
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And an update about my son's B-day: Hubby and I talked it over, and we travel to NM's house on my son Peter's birthday.
I texted NM to say, "Maybe we can travel to you instead? We're hosting people here for most of May and June and it's getting to be a little much." This is the truth.
Another more, even more poignant truth: going to NM's house is the lesser evil. At least there, she can't criticize me about my housekeeping, snoop through my stuff, act all disdainful and self-righteous about the food we eat ("the horror! real butter!"). Also, whenever things get to hairy, we can make an excuse and leave. When she's at my house, I feel like I can't kick her out no matter how much I ache to!
Anyway, NM texts back all sickeningly sweet: "You're welcome at my house anytime!"
And here's where, admittedly, I let my anger get the better of me. Because I felt a little bit like she'd played dirty and won. She invited herself; she rallied the troops against me (telling everyone she never gets to see her grandchildren); she made my son's birthday totally about HER instead of about my son, our family and our traditions. And I sort of felt like she shouldn't be able to get away with it. I at least wanted her to know that I KNOW how bulldozing and devious she was. I guess I wanted to speak my truth...even just the tiniest bit.
So I texted back: "It's a deal then. Also, please stop telling people that you never get to see your grandchildren, and that I withhold them from you. Because that's not true."
What does she write back? Again, sickeningly sweet, like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth: "I don't know why I would ever think that let alone say it!"
Lying. As always. (My uncle had told me all the things she'd called him and said just an hour earlier, painting herself as such a victim.) Everything she does is deniable. I *hate* her. And I will never escape her. I feel like I've only given her more ammunition with which to make me look angry/crazy to the rest of my family.
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Hi KayZee - This sounds like a good solution, not perfect, and I can hear and understand your resentment turning the BDay into a trip to the NM Funhouse. :0 But your points are excellent, no comments about your stuff and easy exits. Thats probably workable. If she gets unruly, cut the visit short. She'll eventually get the message that you wont tolerate her behavior. I've found extricating myself from the situation leaves them wondering, which is better than asserting myself and explaining since they don't care/don't listen anyway. Complaining always makes us look like the bad guys, so dont complain or explain, its just time to go.
About the friend thing that didnt work out. Would changing your perspective help a little? It sounds like you dodged a bullet by not getting involved, so instead of feeling doubtful, would it help to feel relief? Maybe some self praise for your growth in recognizing this persons red flag? As in, lucky me, I saw that coming, or glad I didn't get involved in that. In my lifetool box that I got from therapy, one of them is that the inner child in me was lied to, so while my feelings are real to me (as they are with you) those feelings were started with a lie - and the lie is the Nism, so knowing that, I dont have to believe in limited ways about myself anymore. This is in my journal:
My EMOTIONAL ROADBLOCKS are LIES.
I am BEYOND this.
I use this frequently to counter the self doubt and other issues I feel. They hurt and they are real to me, but I dont have to believe them because of what I now know.
Anyway, sounds like you are doing good - and yes, very smart to tell her to stop turning others against you. My NM is trying that with me now too. She wont speak to anyone in the family (Aunts, Uncles, close friends, neighbors of family who helped with sick family members etc) so they all call me now and now THAT is pissing her off. Pisses me off too, since none of them ever bothered to be concerned with me at all. :(
Have a wonderful weekend, you deserve it.
Ales
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(((Kathy))))
so instead would call and insist that we come over to visit on her orders, or call and tell me that she was sending my father over to drop off something that I didn't need (meaning, sending him to spy on us and report back if we had any new cars, upgrades to the house, etc). I finally started telling her that I had other plans and wouldn't be home. Unfortunately, though, it didn't work. She would reply with, "That's okay, I'll send your father over anyway, and he can leave (whatever item) at the door."
The above is such an infuriating violation of boundaries!! I totally understand and feel for you, especially in your decision to go NC.
My in-laws are pretty wonderful and compassionate. And they definitely understand that my relationship with my family (NM in particular) is strained. NM was so horrible to DH in the beginning, especially around the time of my wedding, that there was no hiding the dysfunction! Still, I worry that they will think less of me if they knew just how awful everything is. This is my own fear of course and my childhood defense mechanism, left over from the days of growing up in that house where I had to "smile, and pretend everything's peachy/normal." In reality, my in-laws never ever been remotely judgmental of me. And my mother-in-law has a relationship with her N-sister that's a lot like the one I have with my Mom (mother-in-law, herself, has had to go NC). So, yes, all to say. I should open up to them a little bit more while they're here. They already know the worst of it anyway.
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Bones,
I'm floored by your NM's, well... stalking, really. It's just stalking. No other word for it.
I had already told her NO, she got told that she was banned from the property and the next time she showed up, uninvited, the police and the tow truck would be called and she would be hauled outta there for trespassing and illegal parking!
I can't tell you how much I admire you for the above. So strong and brave of you to stand up to her!
I'm so sorry you went through all of that (stressful, infuriating, disruptive stuff), but it gives me great relief to know I'm not the only one who's NM constantly invites herself over.
Last time that my NM invited herself it went down like this.... With less than one day's notice, NM called to say she was thinking about driving up from my sister's house to see us. I said, sorry, but we have friends visiting for the weekend (we did). The next time we saw NM, she told my DH, "Next time that I want to see you and you have company for the weekend, I'm just going to play the 'grandmother card' and come anyway." WTF? Come and CRASH our weekend with our friends?
NM seems to think that being a grandmother gives her license to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, given that's the kind of mother she was too. A total dictator who thought she could do whatever she wanted, say whatever she wanted, abuse people however she wanted, be as controlling as she wanted all because and I quote: "You are the children and I am the MOTHER."
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Thank you, Starlight! For the amazing words of wisdom.
As an adult I have realized how my mother has lied to me and in very harmful selfish ways. I didn't comprehend it when I was a kid.
So sometimes as an adult if I'm feeling really desperate I allow myself the experience of lying to my mother. Very Happy
I love the above! And it's made me realize that I never lie to my mother (and question why not)? Especially when I know that half the information I give her (successes, failures and emotions especially) will be used against me! It's like I willingly give her a guided tour, complete with map of all the ways she can hurt and manipulate me.
I wish to death that I could have better "quality of contact" with my family. I'm at an impassable crossroad at the moment where I want low-contact (just a few holidays a year) with NM and want to keep an emotional distance from her as well, and she's going around telling everyone in my family that she's so desperate to improve our relationship and be closer. And well, call me cynical. But this just seems like more lying, triangulating and manipulation. Because when we're alone together, she doesn't in any way "try to be close." She won't hug me when I see her. She makes every effort to undercut me and criticize me when we're alone together. She doesn't call me up either (unless she has a scheme/agenda). She doesn't ask me about herself (never has of course) and makes no effort to know me. This sounds dramatic, but I feel like she wants to destroy me and she wants me out of the family (she's turned almost everyone there against me). So I don't really see how she wants to be closer or mend anything. It's just another cover. Lots of talk so no one will examine her actions.
I am ranting again. But this is similar to what she did with me and my sister. She totally destroyed our relationship (or aided and abetted it's destruction) and drove a wedge between us. And then, she goes around telling everyone that she's so heartbroken that sis and I don't have a relationship. And that SHE (NM!) wants to be the one who brings my sister and I back together! This is more lies. This is laughable. But there is no way to make my truth known to anyone. Because NM is always there, controlling the information and telling them something different. Agggh.
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Not being home would =a day without mother's presence
If it was my mother it would also = retaliation and bratt-ish-ness
Hum, but yeah I think Bones has come up with a good suggestion there it's evasive.
It sends the msg. "I can make plans without you", " I may not be waiting at home whenever you want me to be".
"We really want a day to ourselves"
I think as a family, you/husband and your children deserve to have some birthdays that are void of the emotional trauma. She is being a rude guest.
Good luck!
As an adult I have realized how my mother has lied to me and in very harmful selfish ways. I didn't comprehend it when I was a kid.
So sometimes as an adult if I'm feeling really desperate I allow myself the experience of lying to my mother. :D
Also if you can afford it, go on a roadtrip some long weekend at some point, You sound overwhelmed--- just by yourself to a bed and breakfast and just chill out. Order pancakes and buy a bunch of flowers and go for a bike ride or something.
Lie, say that you have had the flu and won't be doing a cake and celebration. Say that somebody bruised their elbow and so everybody is keeping in low key due to bad spirits. Say that the dog had fleas and the house is being fumigated. Termites. Ants.
Wasps. Bats in the attic. Rats.
?I don't know. The reality of these family relationships is that they are hard to break. There is full contact or no contact or minimal contact. Then there is the question of the quality of the relationship when there is some contact. It's as if we all hope that we could have better relatives and better "quality of contact" :) Coming up with new terms here.
From my perspective, there's nothing brat-tish about setting boundaries given that you are an adult with a family of your own. If the NQueen Bee doesn't like that, then she can lump it and get lost!
Bones
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Bones,
I'm floored by your NM's, well... stalking, really. It's just stalking. No other word for it.
I had already told her NO, she got told that she was banned from the property and the next time she showed up, uninvited, the police and the tow truck would be called and she would be hauled outta there for trespassing and illegal parking!
I can't tell you how much I admire you for the above. So strong and brave of you to stand up to her!
I'm so sorry you went through all of that (stressful, infuriating, disruptive stuff), but it gives me great relief to know I'm not the only one who's NM constantly invites herself over.
Last time that my NM invited herself it went down like this.... With less than one day's notice, NM called to say she was thinking about driving up from my sister's house to see us. I said, sorry, but we have friends visiting for the weekend (we did). The next time we saw NM, she told my DH, "Next time that I want to see you and you have company for the weekend, I'm just going to play the 'grandmother card' and come anyway." WTF? Come and CRASH our weekend with our friends?
NM seems to think that being a grandmother gives her license to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, given that's the kind of mother she was too. A total dictator who thought she could do whatever she wanted, say whatever she wanted, abuse people however she wanted, be as controlling as she wanted all because and I quote: "You are the children and I am the MOTHER."
Unfortunately, that's the way N's think....that they are the SLAVE-OWNERS and we are the SLAVES.
Bones
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Thank you, Starlight! For the amazing words of wisdom.
As an adult I have realized how my mother has lied to me and in very harmful selfish ways. I didn't comprehend it when I was a kid.
So sometimes as an adult if I'm feeling really desperate I allow myself the experience of lying to my mother. Very Happy
I love the above! And it's made me realize that I never lie to my mother (and question why not)? Especially when I know that half the information I give her (successes, failures and emotions especially) will be used against me! It's like I willingly give her a guided tour, complete with map of all the ways she can hurt and manipulate me.
I wish to death that I could have better "quality of contact" with my family. I'm at an impassable crossroad at the moment where I want low-contact (just a few holidays a year) with NM and want to keep an emotional distance from her as well, and she's going around telling everyone in my family that she's so desperate to improve our relationship and be closer. And well, call me cynical. But this just seems like more lying, triangulating and manipulation. Because when we're alone together, she doesn't in any way "try to be close." She won't hug me when I see her. She makes every effort to undercut me and criticize me when we're alone together. She doesn't call me up either (unless she has a scheme/agenda). She doesn't ask me about herself (never has of course) and makes no effort to know me. This sounds dramatic, but I feel like she wants to destroy me and she wants me out of the family (she's turned almost everyone there against me). So I don't really see how she wants to be closer or mend anything. It's just another cover. Lots of talk so no one will examine her actions.
I am ranting again. But this is similar to what she did with me and my sister. She totally destroyed our relationship (or aided and abetted it's destruction) and drove a wedge between us. And then, she goes around telling everyone that she's so heartbroken that sis and I don't have a relationship. And that SHE (NM!) wants to be the one who brings my sister and I back together! This is more lies. This is laughable. But there is no way to make my truth known to anyone. Because NM is always there, controlling the information and telling them something different. Agggh.
Been there done that with the NM who also completely destroyed any possibility of having any relationships with anyone on her side of the family. She convinced them all that I was nothing more than the mentally retarded whore who should be destroyed as if I was nothing more than a defective animal. (She commented to me, at one point, that she never planned to have me, wanted to abort me, but my father would not permit it. As far as SHE was concerned, the NGCB was her ONLY child.) As a result, when I occasionally cross paths with anyone of that side, they act as if I'm not related to them. One male relative actually propositioned me when he showed up to "console me" when the NM died! His excuse? "Well, she told me that you're the family whore and she NEVER lied to me! How about it? Cousins screw in West Virginia!" I threw him out! Dealing with him felt like I was dealing with a male version of the NM! As for my NGCB, he has completely disappeared and refuses to communicate with me because of all the lies the NM told him as well.
I finally got tired of trying to have a relationship with any of these people and realized that if they choose to believe all those SICK and TWISTED lies about me, then I don't need to have that kind of dysfunction around me.
Bones
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This sounds dramatic, but I feel like she wants to destroy me and she wants me out of the family (she's turned almost everyone there against me). So I don't really see how she wants to be closer or mend anything. It's just another cover. Lots of talk so no one will examine her actions.
It doesnt sound dramatic. It is. And its real. I have the same problem with my NM in a slightly different way. My NM fears being abandoned by us kids (she's a widow, my great Dad died in 2000) and the only thing she did with her life was be a Mom - so if she loses us, its a huge failure. Problem is she is so selfish and controlling that we dont want to be involved with her. The problem is kind of subconscious - i.e not exactly clear and that is where the mixed messages come from. Outwardly, she will say she wants us to be happy, but she will do the very things that undermine that (without being able to see it or understand her actions) and then is surprised with the result. Your Mom sounds like she does the same thing. My Nm used to do some of the things you are going through now, but since I went NC (with the exception of this last two months) she is feeling the gig is up and things have changed, but not entirely for the better. That may still take some time.
Hang in there - just think every time you are asserting yourself with her you are making progress. Asserting myself causes me alot of anxiety, so there are many times where I stumble and go backwards. Thats when I need to keep reminding myself Assert and Relax. i.e let it go, so I do the best I can - that is always enough. :)
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Hi Kayzee,
I just wanted to say it's not easy coping with this kind of relationship - even going NC isn't an easy thing to choose to do. It took me years to get to a point where I'm no longer bothered by the lies she tells about me and the way that she behaves. I eventually told everyone what had really been going on after about five years of being NC (you mentioned that no-one knows your truth). None of them wanted to get involved, but no-one denied it, either. I suspect many families choose not to notice, rather than actually not knowing.
I think it sounds like you are doing amazingly well. Redefining a relationship - particularly one as central to your life as the one you have with your mum - is a lot of hard work and means learning lots of new skills. I've built up very slowly over a long period of time. I started of by avoiding her, as you're trying to now (I pretended I had a full time job so that she'd stop turning up and parking her backside on my sofa for half the morning whenever she felt like it). I wasn't assertive enough to say "It's not convenient for you to just turn up, I'd prefer you to ring beforehand". I still struggle to be that assertive but I am a lot better than I used to be. Over time I was able to reduce contact more and eventually I stopped speaking to her altogether (although this was primarily because the abuse had got to a point where she was threatening my son's emotional health as well as my own).
I think having children can help in a situation like this. I was very aware of the fact that I was modelling relationships for my son. I didn't want him to grow up taking the kind of crap I'd had to, so it forced me to think about the way I let people treat me. Try taking babysteps and perhaps focusing more on positives for you - like playdates with other mums. I've been amazed over the years how many poeple I know who have similar problems with their mums but don't mention them because they think everyone else will think they're bad! You might end up meeting someone who knows just how you feel. Hope the situation starts to get better for you soon.
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Kayzee - just some general advice:
As long as you let your NM occupy your thoughts & emotions (outrage, sadness... whatever) - she's winning; it's STILL all about her. Stop it - every time you find "her" creeping into your mind during the day - kick her out, scream at her to leave you alone... or get even more determined and do awful things. I won't repeat mine! LOL... they were that lethal. It's an exercise called the "anger room" - and you just allow your imagination to build the whole scene... to write the whole script. It's positively empowering and kinda frees your emotions from all the "shoulds", "ought to", "need to" s... and helps you just be who you are without all the scripted, interfering drama of NM.
Part Two - is to make your mental day all about YOU. Include your kids and hubs - they're a part of you - but set aside some time during the day... when it's just ALL ABOUT YOU. There is ALWAYS time to take care of Mommy first - because a.) when it's all about NM... you don't develop the habits you need... the mental habit to put yourself first, so that you CAN take care of others (and you might even discover some new things that you didn't know you needed) and b.) even just 10 minutes a day in a regular "Mommy Time-Out" (you don't need an agenda, do you?) can help you restore your perspective, sense of control over you, etc. It's a good antidote to feeling overwhelmed.
About making new friends, in a new town -- two years later, I'm still a-workin' on it too. Of course, my Nmom situation is at the root of the wrapped up in knots, don't have the energy, don't want to be bothered with it "issue". It helps A LOT to let myself feel OK about not being happy, chatty, and to sit back & people watch a little... not just dive in and act like I'm part of a group, or impose myself on some one person. I can't just erase those old emotional ruts that I used to protect myself - or abandon them - because then I have absolutely NOTHING to orient myself or ground myself. A little here... a little there... and I no longer allow my "inner critic" to participate in ANY social activities whatsoever. She's proven herself to be a small-minded, judgemental, catty, jealous bitch - a real party-pooper... and ya know? I think I know where THAT came from!
LOL... you'll be OK KayZee... you're allowed to have veg days... "do-nothing" days... pamper mommy spa days... or just go take a nap! That's what Dads are for. "IT" gets to all of us sometimes - it doesn't make you weak or "less than" to admit it and then prescribe your own remedy.
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Thank you so much Ales,
the only thing she did with her life was be a Mom - so if she loses us, its a huge failure. Problem is she is so selfish and controlling that we dont want to be involved with her.
This mirrors my situation more than I can possibly express. I'm so sorry you had tho go through years of it. But it means a lot to me that you've been there and can relate.
My NM cut off all contact with my grandfather when my sister and I were very small. They just reunited a week ago after over 25 years of NC. So I think a lot of what NM is doing going through is projection. She didn't let her father see his grandkids and now she lives in fear that someone (specifically me and my sister's ex-husband) are going to do the same to her. What she can't see is that it's turning into a self-fulfilling prophesy. She is so combative, nasty and offensive all the time that it REALLY DOES make me reluctant to bring my kids over to see her!
Oh well, I am feeling a little more clear-headed than I was when I wrote this, due in large part to the advice and support of you all!
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Oh Twoapenny,
This sounds so stressful:(although this was primarily because the abuse had got to a point where she was threatening my son's emotional health as well as my own).
I know just what you mean about how having kids gives a person more incentive to set and uphold boundaries. I find it's much easier to be assertive with NM on my kids' half than on my own. Examples: "NM, please don't call my daughter a 'brat.'" "NM please don't try to stand in the way of comforting my daughter when she's fallen down and is crying" (NM loves to say this is 'faking' and 'manipulation' on my daughter's part! Shocking how much narcissists envy and resent kids.)
[/quote]Asserting myself causes me a lot of anxiety, so there are many times where I stumble and go backwards. [/quote] I'm relieved to know I'm not the only one who feels overwhelmed by this. Even in those rare moments when I manage to assert myself, I usually spend the days afterward replaying the whole thing, regretting it, fearing repercussions, etc. I'm going to take on ASSERT AND RELAX as a new mantra!
Thank you sincerely for the support and solidarity, love, Kay x
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Thank you P.R.,
For such compassionate, sound advice. Soothes my soul. Sounds hyperbolic. But truly.
You are so right about this!: As long as you let your NM occupy your thoughts & emotions (outrage, sadness... whatever) - she's winning; it's STILL all about her. Stop it - every time you find "her" creeping into your mind during the day - kick her out, scream at her to leave you alone... or get even more determined and do awful things.
Think I might have mentioned elsewhere that here in my new vaguely hippie community I've gone to see a Reiki master a few times. And the advice she gave me echoes yours. She said, "Anytime you feel emotionally overwhelmed or hear your inner critic rear its head, stop and ask, 'Whose voice is this?'" She claimed it should 'release NM's energy' from my body--crazy as that may sound.
I have notice--it's springtime after all--that getting outside more seems to be helping. Been trying to take daily hikes/walks since I posted this. And for whatever reason, NM can't seem to touch me when I'm out in the open air. Nature's like this incredible protective force field that my dysfunctional FOO bull*hit can't seem to penetrate.
About making new friends, in a new town -- two years later, I'm still a-workin' on it too. Of course, my Nmom situation is at the root of the wrapped up in knots, don't have the energy, don't want to be bothered with it "issue". It helps A LOT to let myself feel OK about not being happy, chatty, and to sit back & people watch a little... not just dive in and act like I'm part of a group, or impose myself on some one person.
I am SO with you here! Thank you for reminding me that's okay to give myself permission to NOT try to be sociable. For reminding me that it's alright to veg out and keep to myself while I work through some stuff.
It's funny (well not really Ha, ha) but I realize as I type this that NM always used to bully me in public to "smile," "be more outgoing," blah blah blah. "Blah" because with NM it was always a phony thing. She wanted me to "put on" the same kind of haughty-show-off-y "public" self that she adopted, and then drop it the second I got back in the car or the front door of our house so that I could be a slave and an audience to her.
Anyway, all that to say, you made me realize that being hard on myself about not having many friends here is another way I'm still bullying myself in NM's voice. A very valuable insight.
Lots of love and so much gratitude, seriously,
Kay x
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Also a little update: I've had a kind of big shock since I posted my initial message. Realized why I've been extra upset and emotional about it all. I've noticed that when there's something physical going on with me, it becomes harder to repress my childhood emotional baggage. Which is a gift in a way, although it never feels like that at the time. At the time, it feels unbearable.
Anyway, DH and I found out that we're pregnant again. This is pretty gob-smacking and, honestly, kind of stressful news. A total improbable kind of accident: I'd been breastfeeding nonstop; period hadn't returned; plus hubby and I barely saw each other in recent months. We kept having to go away for work at opposite times. And even when we were together, we spent most nights passing out at 8:30 p.m., so exhausted by the kids that we had no energy/inclination for the kinds of things husbands and wives do.
Don't have a doc appointment til Tuesday. And because of the breast-feeding/no period thing, I have no idea how pregnant I am.
On the one hand, I feel very grateful. I've occasionally fantasized about ultimately having three kids, but never really thought I'd have the guts to pull the trigger. I grew up in a family of four. That was my blueprint. Anything else seemed unthinkable.
Also, the growing realization that we will have another baby has already brought DH and I to some deep revelations. It's kicked us into gear. DH in particular took it upon himself to find a full-time job that he can do in addition to the creative work that he does. He's a very good musician, but doesn't make an income at it. Having two paychecks will take some pressure/anxiety off of me.
But on the other hand, it's still hard not to worry about finances; how it will affect my work and the two children that I have already.
Plus, pregnancy always spins me into another cycle of reflection and mourning over my NM and FOO. This time, I'm finding it particularly hard to shake the voice of my inner critic/NM. When I had my son, NM launched in on a family planning speech while I held my newborn boy in my arms, all sorts of stuff about how she 'couldn't bear for him to be a middle child, etc.' More projection, of course. NM is convinced that her own schizo/N mother couldn't give her the love and attention she needed because she had too many children (my NM has 5 brothers and sisters). But it's still hard not to beat myself up and tell myself I'm a bad, selfish mother for having 'too many children,' etc.
I am trying to come to terms with this: I am going to have three children under the age of four. You all are the first people I've told. DH and I are going to be horribly embarrassed to tell our families/friends. We worry people will think we're freaks! (I just turned 32. Most of my married friends don't even have 1 baby yet.)
But I'm sure, once the shock wears off, we won't care. It will give way to excitement and joy, like it always does. For the moment, though, I'm a bit daunted. Exhausted. Emotional. Stressed-out. Certainly don't want to tell FOO, and now REALLY don't want to be around NM who has a radar for these things.
There you have it, Kay x
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Oh Kay! That's marvelous news!! Congratulations!
Yes, of course, there's the realistic you knowing what another child means in work, money, space terms. One thinks about those things because one is a responsible, caring parent... and takes appropriate action. That's not stress, though.
And there's the emotional you - already connected to the new little one and feeling protective. As you should. But you need to include yourself inside that protection, too. The type of stress Nmom's create needs to be avoided; buffered; kept at arms' length. If you feel she's bad juju... then she IS bad juju...
Yes, I agree with your Reiki master. It's the mind-body connection and it's not some new-agey, airy-fairy thing in my experience. It's very, very real. And science is finally starting to catch up with explanations about how the hormones cortisol and adrenaline stress our cells, disrupt our bodily process... and like some perpetual motion machine, also affect the thoughts & feelings that started the malfunction in the first place.
I have an idea - just brainstorming here so if you wanna chuck it in the trash, s'ok with me. You know how they say "third time's the charm"?
I think I've finally figured out how to be married with husband number 3. (Who he is, helps quite a bit!) Well, with baby number 3... MAYBE... just MAYBE... you can try something completely different from mourning your NM. You've already done that twice, with the other 2 pregnancies? OK... so what have you learned so far? About yourself, that is? That you're competent, caring, able to maintain your equilibrium in a happy, cuddly, rollicking family? Sounds like your hubby is also very supportive and a real keeper...
That's a really nice picture, to me. It's something I never had growing up. My kids came closer to that. And being able to create that for yourself and your family is a major life accomplishment. It takes a lot of time, energy and caring. It's a full-time job in itself!
I don't know when you'll find a spare minute to think about that old sourpuss NM, do you?
In some ways, it's the perfect "revenge" - and also happy ending - if you become the mom you wish you had; that you mourn for - and let old sourpuss go the way of people "you used to know". It's kinda amazing how less affected by her crap, you'll be. (oh... you still have to deal with the one in your head - but that's a lot easier!)
:D
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Thank you P.R.!
Can't tell you how moved and inspired I am by the idea of 'three's a charm.'
You are absolutely right. The last two times I birthed children, I spent what felt like the whole of my pregnancies worrying that I was going to be a disappointing mom, that I was going to perpetuate NM's bad ju-ju and dysfunction, and that I was going to struggle to raise a family since I didn't have a healthy FOO "blueprint." I think I'm at a place now where I can accept that--although I still have work to do--I am not my NM. Like, not even remotely. And never have been. NM confused the boundaries between us, thought I was her property, thought I was an extension of her. But I've at least come far enough to know the difference. I know, now, what's her baggage and what's mine. I can distinguish her delusions from my reality.
Let old sourpuss go the way of people "you used to know".
I love this! It's certainly time for me. I realize that by constantly hating her, fearing her and even feeling sorry for her, I am still keeping her firmly rooted in the center of my universe (exactly where she wants to be and where she was when I was growing up). And frankly, there's just not room for her there anymore. There's too much else going on.
The idea of having a loving mother is so dead to me. It has been for years. But it's probably time to let go of the all-powerful evil NM too. Sometimes I think I ought to just take a day or a week and mentally say good bye, "put her in the ground" so to speak. My mother is very much alive and "well," but our relationship is so far expired. Even if I don't go fully NC, I think it's time to let go.
Thank you again, P.R. for all your compassion and words of wisdom,
Kay x
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Hi Kay,
Congratulations! I used to worry terribly about what other people thought about me (I think it's the constant criticism thing from childhood). Something that helped is to have a conversation with myself - what do I think about this? Do I think this is selfish/irresponsible/irrational etc etc. I find if I have a mental argument with myself it helps me to see that what I am doing is good, healthy and normal - in fact I'd go as far as saying if it irritates your mum you can probably bet your life it's because you're doing it well! The broken record technique is very good for avoiding discussion or debate on topics like this, so if anyone starts to badger you about it a stock phrase - something like "Hubby and I are very happy and feel blessed to be given this addition to our family" - just repeated over and over every time someone says anything negative can really help to avoid conflict and unpleasant conversations (that are more about the other person than they are about you, anyway). Also distraction - "I think it's terrible that you are doing this " can be responded to with "Oh, did you see that chicken's on special offer all of next week?" something completely unrelated and not at all connected to 'their' agenda. As PR says, focus on you, what's best for you, your hubby, your kids, your home and so on.
On the subject of being a good mum, I suffered horrible anxieties when my son was little. Now that he's older (10) I can see that he's a good kid - well balanced, well adjusted, confident, assertive - he enjoys life. Nothing like me at that age! So I think as they get older you start to see the fruits of your labour. Have you read any of Alice Miller's stuff about raising children? Very good for getting rid of the 'children are manipulative and deceitful' angle that some people have. It sounds like your mum was raised to think like that and hasn't been able to change her way of thinking as she's got older. You can and you are, so give yourself some credit for it.
Very happy about your good news!! xx
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Thank you Twoapenny,
I've read a couple of books by Alice Miller. The Drama of the Gifted Child and, maybe, The Body Never Lies. I might go and check out a few more at the library. Thank you for the suggestion! She has such an amazing way of soothing my soul and giving me an almost, full body, emotional purge.
I find so many echoes of NM's abusive child-rearing in A.M. Particularly in the way she writes about people who believe and parent as though children are "born bad." NM certainly related to me that way. I was like this human garbage can where she could project all her negative emotions and beliefs about herself--stuff she didn't feel strong enough to deal with. I felt her hatred so acutely from such an early age. She was constantly (from the time I was a toddler to a teenager) telling me that "she couldn't stand to look at me," most of the time for reasons that were totally mysterious or unknown. She believed and had me believe I was this shameful Quasimoto.
if anyone starts to badger you about it a stock phrase - something like "Hubby and I are very happy and feel blessed to be given this addition to our family"
. This is amazing advice. And very true. We are happy. I don't know why it's so hard to stop thinking or caring about what other people think. Actually, on second thought...it's probably some old survival mechanism from childhood. My survival in my family once depended on walking on eggshells, not offending or enraging NM, worrying constantly whether I was doing something she'd disapprove of.
Damn, it's so hard to break old patterns! I suppose the first step is recognizing them!
love, Kay x
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Hi Kay,
It is hard to break those old habits, I think they're as natural as breathing and it does take a long time to change them (and a lot of effort). But every now and again now I find myself saying or doing something and I get very excited because it's not what the old me would have said or done, it's what someone with a healthy view of themselves and a good level of assertion would say or do. Yay!! You're doing great xxx
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Sometimes I walk by this day care center with big wall size windows looking in off of the street view. There is an area where babies crawl around and then another room with older children. You know, I see the bald headed babies that all look a lot alike. They make baby barf and drool and cry and make stinky poop...BUT they all do that. It's just what babies do you know!! It's really hard to single any one baby out and say: "There that baby that one with the pitchforked tail" That is the bad one.
How come we can rationalize this logically and see that all the babies are very similar in their baby-ness and none are especially evil.
How come on the other hand we feel so terminally, congenitally, bad, worthless, less than.....as if one must be apologetic for one's own existence.
My guess is because of the interesting ways people process emotions, the way young children process emotions it's not really logical, rational or adult-like. IT's different.
Without saying directly both of my parents did think I was bad. My father had a very low opinion of himself (low self esteem) and he reflected that onto me. He saw no reason why I should be any different from himself. He thought that a child that went to summer camp or anything entertaining or social was "spoiling" a child. My mother had a baby so that a man would take care of her and so she wouldn't have to work. She liked the part about her being taken care of and not working. She didn't like the baby itself she just liked it as a manipulative tool.
So yeah on some level my parents reflected to me that I was bad. That was their story that I have carried around for a long long time AND it has impacted me and it is part of my life. Look how old I am and still talking about it.
There is something that we just didn't get that we needed in order to feel like we really are legitimate humans. Not bad, not even absolutely good....just valid, relevant real humans.
I say not absolutely good because ----look how much we do try to improve ourselves but never really pinpoint the real issue.
Just the way we are---it's fine. Even with the parts that didn't come together perfectly--we are fine.
Except for the unresolved grief that is another toughie.
We might be able to say we are fine but we still don't always feel fine. ??
Just a ramble.
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As an adult I have realized how my mother has lied to me and in very harmful selfish ways. I didn't comprehend it when I was a kid.
So sometimes as an adult if I'm feeling really desperate I allow myself the experience of lying to my mother\
This took me so long to realize/accept. NM lies more than she tells the truth. And then she lies about lying. And then... as you all have pointed out here, she turns sickenly sweet. I am so thankful to live a half a world away. Until now, for her I was "out of sight out of mind." She doesn't like me much as a whole, so unless someone asks her about us and she realizes she has no clue what is going on in our lives, she pretty much leaves us alone now. Co still has his head in the sand... sees what he wants to see.
Thanks all for these great threads. Hope I have more time soon to read through them carefully.
KayZee,
I have felt so much better as I distance myself from NM. Let her tell her friends and family lies - they know it. You don't realize it yet, but many people see through the N and know she is exaggerating and being cruel. I can just bet they get off the phone with her and say, "Ugh - she is complaining again and you know she doesn't even care if she sees those kids."