Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on June 21, 2012, 12:01:32 AM
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Hi All! I haven't been on here in ages. My (N)M is no less crazy, but at least others in my life realize her as being abnormal. I have a question for you - have you read about Histrionic Personality Disorder? This seems much like what we describe here and I am not sure of the differences. I am thinking it may apply to my M in many ways. Here is a link.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/personality_disorders/hic_histrionic_personality_disorder.aspx
Would love to hear your opinions/insights.
Beth
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Hum, I'm not certain how experts tell the difference. Robin Williams I think is an example of histrionic behavior....it's like over the top and flamboyant lots of physical gesticulation. I sort of think about NPD as being conniving without all of the exaggerations.
There is cross over you know. People don't fit neatly into a category sometimes.
Also the "experts" get together and rewrite this stuff from time to time and even they can't always agree on how to organize these things or if they should even exist.
I would say there is a difference though. My mother seems more Narcissistic without a lot of Histrionic traits. There would be some Narcissistic people though who would have histrionic type traits possibly. There could also be Histrionic people who had Narcissistic traits. That's why people get PhD's in this stuff.
You know the Narcissists think they are better than other people.
Histrionics want to show you that..... they have something to show you. Hey look!! Hey I'm crying!!! Now I'm laughing!!! Now I'm jumping. Wait no go away...no I was just kidding...no really go away....but I'm going to stand right in front of you while you are walking away....because I'm walking away faster than you...what you are going home?....okay, not before I cry first.
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ICD-10
F60.4 Histrionic Personality Disorder
Personality disorder characterized by at least 3 of the following:
(a) self-dramatization, theatricality, exaggerated expression of emotions;
(b) suggestibility, easily influenced by others or by circumstances;
(c) shallow and labile affectivity;
(d) continual seeking for excitement, appreciation by others, and activities in which the patient is the centre of attention;
(e) inappropriate seductiveness in appearance or behaviour;
(f) over-concern with physical attractiveness.
Associated features may include egocentricity, self-indulgence, continuous longing for appreciation, feelings that are easily hurt, and persistent manipulative behaviour to achieve own needs.
Includes:
* hysterical and psychoinfantile personality (disorder)
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Miss Piggy might be a histrionic. She might be antisocial also. Maybe a Narcissist
Kermit might be normal.
Animal would definitely be antisocial.
So Narcissism defined by Hotchkiss:
1) Bad boundaries
2) Exploitation
3) Entitlement
4) Envy
5) Arrogance
6) Magical thinking
7) Shamelessness
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Interesting that you should bring this up. I was watching a talk show last night, and a reference was made to a celebrity having Histrionic Personality Disorder (might have been Dr. Drew who said it, though I don't remember).
I agree that disturbed people don't all fit neatly into perfect packages, and that many show traits of several disorders. My N-mother doesn't give a rat's hooey about her appearance (if anything, it's the opposite), but will act out and behave inappropriately when she's not the center of attention, so I would have to say that she has some Histrionic traits on top of the NPD. I have also had more than one psych tell me that she has sociopathic tendencies because of her racism and general hatred towards anyone who isn't deemed to be a member of the same perceived social class as her (and she perceives herself as royalty, so anyone below Queen Elizabeth is a waste of oxygen in her book).
I think that all of us with N mothers can find that they have a combination of at least 2 or more disorders in various degrees. After all, they ARE mentally ill. Their brains do not function normally, so most likely have many issues beyond one textbook disorder. That's my take, anyway.
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That makes a lot of sense that the two (or more) diorders could add to one sick person. Especially since the roots of both disorders seem to be the same - overattenion or a lack of attention.... Looking at the list of NPD traits again, she definitely has the overinflation of self, magical thinking (that one always amazes me) - honestly, everything on the NPD list plus a lot of the histrionic tendencies. I'd be curious to see how docs mix the two or separate them. Will do some digging today out of sheer interest.
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Here is an article I found on histrionic vs narcissistic personality DOs.
http://suite101.com/article/histrionic--narcissistic-personality-disorder-a214475
Also - and a bit more descriptive...
http://www.disorders.org/narcissistic-histrionic/
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I had never heard this term before "The Inverted Narcissist" aka "Covert Narcissist"
So counter dependent or co-dependent
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Just an off the wall reference to histrionic, I guess is lawyers are desperate to come up with something:
http://www.examiner.com/article/jerry-sandusky-guilty-what-is-histrionic-personality-disorder
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Hey Beth. I came across the HPD concept a couple of years ago when trying to figure out my mother. As others have suggested above there seems to be a lot of crossover symptoms. With my mother, a few of the pieces really fit, especially during her breakdown episodes. She has the exaggerrated display of emotions, over concern with issues of appearance, and seeking to be the center of attention. She doesn't do the seductive sexual display, and in fact seems to have an issue with men/sex in general. I suppose she wouldn't qualify as a full blown HPD. But the list of histrionic traits has been helpful to me in realizing there are some obvious personality problems going on with her.
So I have a histrionic mother and a possibly Asperger Syndrome father. Is it any wonder I was so bewildered for so long.. :?
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Yeah, Silver, I know what you mean :) I thought I was the problem for so long. Weird when I started seeing what was really going on. And, of course, we never fully know what is the "answer." We just have to take what we know and understand and apply it to how we deal with the people in our lives. Overall, it makes life easier to have knowledge :)
Salsa, the Sandusky case was what brought the HPD to light for me. I think he's just a plain evil pedophile, but I had not heard of that PD before and many of the symptoms were similar. Still, NM seems to fit the NPD so much more cleanly. She does act seductively, but is totally weird about sex at the same time. She thinks women who "do it" are sluts, but sees its a great way to get attention. Kind of sad, as it looks from the outside like a big lot of self-hatred.
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I will second that all of this stuff is bewildering. Sigh.
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Hi Beth! Nice to see you again... at least virtually, hee-hee!
Thanks for this thread. The timing is remarkable - I really need it at the moment. LONG story... and doesn't belong here. I don't have a lot of time to get caught up online right now - or least, not just yet. Soon.
Thanks Salsa... for the short lists of symptoms, too. That helps me sort out a dark, ugly mess.
Anyone find anything relating to life-experiences that might begin to explain a "cause" [via reaction; self-defense mechanism] for HPD or the hybrid of N & HPD? I read some case histories once that went a long way to describing how a few people became Ns... think I kept the book... It was like they came to a fork in their life's road and went the "wrong" way. Or do most experts believe that people are born Ns? just the way they develop in the womb, genetics, and then nurture/life adds it's influence? Like with BPD- my T told me that borderline people are born that way... but then, it's accepted that in some cases of PTSD, and some sexual/child abuse victims... that the same set of symptoms (maybe call this "pseudo-BDP"?) can present themselves.
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Yeah, Silver, I know what you mean :) I thought I was the problem for so long. Weird when I started seeing what was really going on. And, of course, we never fully know what is the "answer." We just have to take what we know and understand and apply it to how we deal with the people in our lives. Overall, it makes life easier to have knowledge :)
Same here. I figured I must be the problem. And since my mother insists on blaming everything in her life on something outside herself, she helped form my interpretation. Everybody else is an active agent, but she is a victim. So I and the sibs grew up tiptoeing around, making sure not to trigger a "breakdown". When one happened, she never had any problem blaming someone else.
And the interpretations of the N's make figuring out the cause (of their problems and our own) even more challenging. My mother has had plenty to say about the supposedly dreadful conditions and abuses she endured in her own FOO. So it's pretty clear she doesn't believe her own nature is the cause of her problems.
But in my forties I started to question these stories, which had become something of a family mythology. Her assessment of her own situation is part of her personality problem. When she's "up" she'll have at least a few positive comments about people. But then she cycles to a more negative frame of mind, and everybody outside her gets turned into a villain.
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Silver - funny, NM is the opposite about her family. She paints a picture of perfection and sweetness. She would have you believe she lived in a castle and had ponies in her bedroom and maids to clean up after them. I think the truth is much uglier. And as far as blame... you are so right - everyone else causes their own problems and brings problems on themselves. ANything that happens to HER is becuase people are stupid.
Hi Phoenix!!! Missed you!!! Would love to hear your story when you have time and the energy... I think I believe that the N is created - but very early on. I think there is some moment at 3 - 5 when the person freezes and never matures. I have read that this is what many believe. I don't think it's a physical (chemical) imbalance like BPD or schizophrenia. I also don't believe it's treatable, unfortuntely. I don't think they can come out of the fantasy world they create to see reality. They are so much like children who design a world they want to live in and then make everyone around fit into the show or else close their eyes and wish them away. Pathetic and awful. Hurtful and shameful to those around them.
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I've also read just as you have stated above that Narcissists get stuck at a young age specifically two. Terrible twos.
medial prefrontal cortex--self centered thinking (younger people use more)
temporo parietal junction-- thought focused on others (older people use more)
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I've also read just as you have stated above that Narcissists get stuck at a young age specifically two. Terrible twos.
medial prefrontal cortex--self centered thinking (younger people use more)
temporo parietal junction-- thought focused on others (older people use more)
The "Terrible Twos" behavior sounds right. Watch how an N reacts to the word "No"! Their N-tantrum is NOT pretty!
Bones
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They are so much like children who design a world they want to live in and then make everyone around fit into the show or else close their eyes and wish them away.
Beth, honey - this is exactly what I witnessed in my D - with horror movie accuracy. I almost said my youngest D - because of how she's acting; she's 13 months older than her sister. At 34, with a soon to be 12 yr old (who has educational challenges which sis & I believe are more emotional/psychological than anything else) and a soon to be 8 yr old...
Well. I could tell you stories that would keep you up all night. Actually, her sister has some I've begged her to NOT tell me.
In A's world - everyone should listen to her words, stories, songs, delusions, painful (and sometimes hostile; resentful) attempts at jokes and adore her as "the most interesting person in the world". She is so "different" than other people, she can't "help being interesting" to everyone -- except the blind, stupid, mean people who want to judge her all the time. (That being her sister and I who point out that if she's so drunk she can't walk/talk that she can't take care of her kids, either.)
And that simple observation is seen as persecution and the evil "judgement" (I've got more to say about she calls "judgement").
NUTSHELL VERSION of what's bugging the hell out of me:
A few weeks ago she told me she was drunk, fell 15 ft. out of a tree stand and broke her arm. Fortunately, it wasn't her dominant hand. She can't work, because she must be physically able to transport patients (!!!!) without re-injuring herself. When she showed up here last week, for a family R&R get together she proudly proclaimed to all of us that she was using alcohol to self-medicate for pain. (She has been accepted to a nursing program - oh the irony.) And that her doctor told her this was better than taking painkillers which would affect her liver. School has been good for her and I've been trying to positively reinforce this goal; she's got a 4.0 and has been helping her classmates study. But now I have some serious doubts.
Actually, nothing came out of my mouth at that moment. I always have something to say, as y'all know, but this "logic" floored me.
The next day, I told her I was having a bit of an intellectual problem reconciling the contradictions in her using exactly the same substance that caused her injury to ease the pain. That everything I knew about alcohol and painkillers was that one or the other wouldn't cause a problem unless used to excess; that it was the combination of them that is the issue. Oh... that's just wrong. She's a medical expert now. And we were off to the races to an ugly ending to the day - very late in the day.
So, the whole evening was her spewing out her "reality" from inside her distorted bubble - demanding we applaud her genius for psychosis and accept and love her this way - and us pointing out where she contradicted her previous statement from just a moment before (which she denied saying) until we hit this point of her personal pain - where we were accused yet again of judging her because she's different. Mostly, we were simply saying you've had enough to drink let's go to bed. Here have some water. And we're the bad guys trying to ruin her "happy time" when we insisted. She was on the verge of passing out. We kept trying to distract with different topics... toys... let's play instead... music... nope; she was "driving" the evening and would continue on alone if we left her to her own devices.
After that experience, all of my issues were in full red-alert trigger. I woke up screaming, an hour after finally falling asleep, in a nightmare. Poor hubs - I scared him & the dog to death. I really don't need to experience any more crazy people in my life - ESPECIALLY if I'm related to them.
Top it off: I observed some intense sibling rivalry - flat out jealousy - from older D to younger. A wants to be someone else and in the process, be "ok". She drew some tattoos on her arm, to look like her sis's tattoos... and posted them on FB.
But the absolute worst, most awful moment I experienced (and those of you with sexual abuse in the past? PLEASE look away and stop reading!) was she in the "Mommy, I love you" phase... and proceeded lean over and rub herself all over me, like she was trying to seduce me. Thankfully H, my other D, dragged her off me and back to her seat - H's fiancee was as shocked as I was (and I was sick & disgusted, too).
And it just took 15 minutes to finally type that last paragraph.
She has absolutely zip, nada, zilch awareness - even sober - of how her behavior affects other people... it's as if she is forcing us to be responsible for her and then of course, resents that. I tried to talk to her about empathy and feelings a couple days later... just in general, feeling her out... but I think we've all had enough delving into this kind of insanity for one post, today. I need to walk away, smoke and take a shower.
And yes, I know. I have about as much chance of changing A, as I had with my mom. Thanks Beth, for the opening to tell the basics of the story. I won't monopolize - but the HPD list really got my attention. Now you know why.
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I've also read just as you have stated above that Narcissists get stuck at a young age specifically two. Terrible twos.
medial prefrontal cortex--self centered thinking (younger people use more)
temporo parietal junction-- thought focused on others (older people use more)
I think this is a good comparison. I've suspected my father got stuck in many ways at the social skill level of a two year old. He's constantly trying to define himself, usually in opposition to whatever comments or ideas are coming from others. For him, the process of interaction consists of explaining his likes, dislikes, opinions, beliefs, and so on. There is no attempt to validate an-other person or explore common interests. He can turn the weather into a topic of one-upmanship and confrontation No big surprise he hasn't had a friend in the past 30 years.
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I think this is a good comparison. I've suspected my father got stuck in many ways at the social skill level of a two year old. He's constantly trying to define himself, usually in opposition to whatever comments or ideas are coming from others. For him, the process of interaction consists of explaining his likes, dislikes, opinions, beliefs, and so on. There is no attempt to validate an-other person or explore common interests. He can turn the weather into a topic of one-upmanship and confrontation No big surprise he hasn't had a friend in the past 30 years.
It's really exhausting to be around it.
Can he turn it off and on depending on the company around or is he always that way?
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It's really exhausting to be around it.
Can he turn it off and on depending on the company around or is he always that way?
Exhausting for sure. He does a little better in more formal limited contacts. I'm guessing with active effort the intellectual parts of the brain are able to exercise some control for a short time. But with closer relations he seems to relax into social stupidity. That underdeveloped temporo parietal junction just can't handle the strain for long and gives up.. :)
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PR-
It sounds to me like there are layers and layers of junk going on with your D. The top layer, which, sadly, I can well identify with, is alcoholism. Your D is an alcoholic. That in itself leads to lying - to oneslef and to otehrs to continue within the disease. Obviously, she is getting to a point where she can no longer hide the fact that she is sick. She will have to want help at some point or she will die from it. Is there someone else in the picture to help with the kids? And can someone maybe talk to the kids and tell them what is going on with that? I am sure you probably remember me blathering about it before, but I had to quit drinking more than 8 years ago. I was on the same path. I tell my kids now that if they find they have a problem - with ANYTHING- look for help. Your daughter is claiming alcohol will help her instead of med because she needs a reason to keep drinking.
So a large part of this acting out has to so with the alcoholism... but alcoholism is always a cover for something else. What are the underlying causes of her disorder? Was she difficult as a child? Was she abused? What is she covering up?
The narcissism coupled with the brashness of drunken behavior cannot be pretty. The sexual acting out is just plain bizarre - especially towards you. Is she jealous of you? Waqqs she trying to be as repulsive as possible to see how you would react? I fins that NM often "pushes her boundaries" - does something extrememly embarrassing or irritating - to see if anyone will "call her out."
Does any of this help? Have you thought of any more?
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Silver and Mild...
Even watched a show or a movie with your N? Nothing like hours of listening to whom they find attractive, what they feel is valid, who is ugly, who is fat, yada, yada, yada. And if you don't agree, "I don't care what you say, I think...."
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Um, well my mother doesn't harass the television. Her thing is that she prefers the television over most everything except her dog's pooh. :) :(
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I'm still processing Beth. Digesting. Letting some of the disgust wash off.
When she's not drinking - it's easier to see the attention-seeking, the pushing boundaries of decency because she wants ______ (?????). H, her sister, and I help each other a lot - which involves holding each other back, at times... processing... because both of have been hurt, repeatedly by A... have walked away.... then given her another chance... only to get hurt again. This is our whole shared history.
At 10, A manipulated a different custody arrangement because she was chafing under rules and limits and expectations placed on her by teachers and myself. She wasn't doing homework. She could do the work and quite well; she's gifted mathematically and musically. Unfortunately this arrangement included her sister - and H was squarely in the middle and conflicted about it. My ex - N - #1... well, I know he's part of the problem but I just don't know how - yet. H & Dad butted heads - because of his delusions/denial about A and making H that family scapegoat. H is also quite talented and she's acquired good inner skills, boundaries, and street smarts. She meets the qualifications of our Amazon tribe.
A has been showing off, hamming it up, and acting or performing as long as I can remember. At 14, while on a visit from Dad's, both H & I were in no certain uncertain terms, shut out of her life. She clung to H tho, until she went to college... and some time after she'd switched majors so many times it was clear that she wasn't going to graduate. I've slowly pried H out of automatically jumping into the role of A's mom. With the rivalry between the two... this just is NOT a good situation... and H has a low tolerance for emotional frustration. She's put up with quite enough already.
There are tons of Dad issues between the two of them. Occasionally, non sequitor - out of the blue - comments which are never elaborated on make me question just what all DID happen during those years. His issues, even at 60+, are still getting him in trouble and forcing him to move on to another location. The last one was being fired for sexual harassment. I do not think about my 5 years with him at all and have absolutely NO desire to recall any of it. Don't take this literally, but I'd just soon shoot him as try to talk anything through. His involvement with either of the girls is always worse than none - he causes additional layers of problems.
Once I was able to talk to rational A again, she told me that she feels H and I are always trying to "fix her"... and she doesn't want us to "fix her" because there's nothing wrong with her, to her way of thinking. I conceded that fair point, well made. She became an issue during my time in T, because of an awful DUI with her kids in the vehicle. The jail had to put her in a straight jacket that night because of suicidal/psychotic behavior. I talked to her on the phone at 3 am., and fully understand their decision. My T very firmly put "fixing her" off limits because of the work I was doing at the time, which was too delicate for me to have an iota of perspective... and because A is an adult. So I've adhered to those boundaries and don't do the "mom rushes in to rescue" or anything. It is - unfortunately - a dangerous place for me.
Here's the thing: both H and I have the distinct impression, feeling, perception that she DOES want to ask for help from us. I recognized that she was a.) making us responsible for her by being caught up in her "performance" of her and projecting it all over us, without acknowledging anyone else's existence around her... literally, forcing us to "wear" her shoes... and saying she only wanted someone to understand her and the b.) turning around and attacking us as mean and judgemental for our own thoughts and feelings feedback we were giving her... in a compassionate, gentle, non-threatening or judging way.
Through some assymetrical questions, I discovered some odd things. She thinks all feelings are bad and to be avoided. (Where have I heard that before, sigh?) She doesn't understand boundaries between people - not the social conventions, nor even boundaries between she and I, H and her; her and her kids. She projects what she feels onto us - and when we point out that it's nutz to misconstrue what we said into that... then, we're being unfair... and that word: judgemental. Which led me to very carefully bring up the topic of shame. I didn't pursue it at that time... just introduced it to the discussion and let it go.
We DO care about her and with some work on herself (and avoiding substances) she would be fun to be around. Neither her sister or I think she's "bad" - we just want her well. No, I'm not going to try to be her therapist. I'm still going to keep to my boundaries... and it will be a long, long time before I agree to a 3-way visit again. It's just too much a hall of mirrors and I'm still exhausted. My hubs feels like I went away physically - literally left the premises - while they were here. And the thing is, with A - EVERY time she's going to be around we're overcome with a sense of dread of what will happen this time - because something always does: it's part of her performance and her justification for blaming US for her problem when we try to create normal boundaries and sane limits.
So: Releasing the outcome... the monopoly on my thoughts, feelings... and letting it go.
OH - and the kids are better than they were; we could actually have simple fun. Additionally, nursing school requires her to make a will and H will be named guardian of the boys, which she has been willing to do for quite some time. I insisted she needed a life of her own, first - before she gave that opportunity away to clean up A's.
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Silver and Mild...
Even watched a show or a movie with your N? Nothing like hours of listening to whom they find attractive, what they feel is valid, who is ugly, who is fat, yada, yada, yada. And if you don't agree, "I don't care what you say, I think...."
The last time I watched a movie with my father, I was treated to a mini lecture on what makes a "good" movie. He doesn't qualify this as his opinion, or personal preference. He is actually tapping into objective truth. And since he knows the truth, there is no room for reciprocity. It's like listening to a college professor do a lecture. This is pretty typical of my interactions with him. Since I know nothing I say even registers, I just shut up and watch the clock.
I did a search yesterday on temporoparietal junction. I think they are really onto something with this research. They are identifying parts of the brain responsible for self awareness, distinction between self and others, self definition, theory of other's minds. This hits on many of the issues I've identified in my FOO. My father is 78 years old and still seems to be caught in the childhood project of defining himself, generally in opposition to others. He's too stuck at this level to ever have a real reciprocal interaction with an other adult.
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Silver- couldn't help but laugh at your dad's expertise. Lord, they are pathetically funny at times. Interesting... the self and others link. So much of what NM "assigns" me are her feelings. One day I was looking at a picture of my sister (we were all together) and she was wearing a dress that was pretty, but didn't completely flatter her. My instinct would have been to say that the dress was a nice color (it was). M turned around and snarled, "And don't you even say your sister looks heavy in that dress." Uhhhh... her thoughts and she puts them on me???? Then I look like the bad guy even though I had no intention of saying that. They have no boundary of self at all.
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PR -
One more note I can add from the addiciton side as it pertained to me. Your D DOES want help. She wants someone to fix what is wrong with her and make her whole and not addicted. But you cannot do that for her. So she is angry that no one can fix her, but unwilling to make the change herself. She needs to get to that place herself to shed the addiction.
The father issues could have even been emotional games. Ns love to hurt others, as you well know. But, ultimately, your daughter can live with it and move on and be responsible and ADULT or she can be bratty and awful as she is being. No one has a perfect life. We all need to make our lives the way we want them to be. It is disappointing that she does not think more of her children - that is what made all the difference for me.
xxoo
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The last time I watched a movie with my father, I was treated to a mini lecture on what makes a "good" movie. He doesn't qualify this as his opinion, or personal preference. He is actually tapping into objective truth. And since he knows the truth, there is no room for reciprocity. It's like listening to a college professor do a lecture. This is pretty typical of my interactions with him. Since I know nothing I say even registers, I just shut up and watch the clock.
I did a search yesterday on temporoparietal junction. I think they are really onto something with this research. They are identifying parts of the brain responsible for self awareness, distinction between self and others, self definition, theory of other's minds. This hits on many of the issues I've identified in my FOO. My father is 78 years old and still seems to be caught in the childhood project of defining himself, generally in opposition to others. He's too stuck at this level to ever have a real reciprocal interaction with an other adult.
I wrote something earlier and then my computer stalled out so second rendition:
I concur. Lets see oh yes, well my father did insist that I should take on his opinion and perspective if I didn't I was verbally badgered by him. "My way or no way"
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And the interpretations of the N's make figuring out the cause (of their problems and our own) even more challenging. My mother has had plenty to say about the supposedly dreadful conditions and abuses she endured in her own FOO. So it's pretty clear she doesn't believe her own nature is the cause of her problems.
But in my forties I started to question these stories, which had become something of a family mythology. Her assessment of her own situation is part of her personality problem. When she's "up" she'll have at least a few positive comments about people. But then she cycles to a more negative frame of mind, and everybody outside her gets turned into a villain.
When I read what you wrote a few days ago it lodged in my mind. I've wondered about this more than once. How did the N become an N. My mother doesn't have a clear description of her childhood problems, I mean I know there was alcoholism and maybe that is enough to make somebody the way that she is. I do wonder if it wasn't her parents, although it could have been that formed her psyche or whatever into a Narcissist.
It's been a life long headache and as immature as it is I'm still hoping that instant karma is gonna get em.
Maybe it's not the extremeness of the abuse that causes Narcissism in children maybe it's the mental configuration of the parent that screws up the mental config of the child. Because I can not find anything glaringly horrendous that would explain how empty my mother is. She has been a curse.
Sometimes I think I should be an adult that isn't impacted by any of this---and I think of this fake personality for myself and I try to step into it. A personality that has transcended any FOO stuff and is constantly on-the-ball, like over competent. ("I'm mature, I'm competent, nothing gets to me, I'm impermeable") but it's just fake. Sigh. Somehow when it comes to FOO stuff I'm still emotionally sensitive to it.
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Silver- couldn't help but laugh at your dad's expertise. Lord, they are pathetically funny at times. Interesting... the self and others link. So much of what NM "assigns" me are her feelings. One day I was looking at a picture of my sister (we were all together) and she was wearing a dress that was pretty, but didn't completely flatter her. My instinct would have been to say that the dress was a nice color (it was). M turned around and snarled, "And don't you even say your sister looks heavy in that dress." Uhhhh... her thoughts and she puts them on me???? Then I look like the bad guy even though I had no intention of saying that. They have no boundary of self at all.
It always amazes me how the members here have such similar experiences. The assigning of her own feelings to others is one of my mother's favorite methods. It turns the family unit into a sad tangle of screwed up relationships, because the N insists on being in the middle of everything and playing everybody off against each other. I'm guessing next your mother goes and reports to your sister YOUR opinion of the dress? That's the sort of game going on in my FOO.
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My mother doesn't have a clear description of her childhood problems, I mean I know there was alcoholism and maybe that is enough to make somebody the way that she is. I do wonder if it wasn't her parents, although it could have been that formed her psyche or whatever into a Narcissist.
Same here. During my early years, I got a good dose of stories about the general problems both of my parents experienced, but never any clear descriptions or specific events. My mother likes to present a picture of material and financial poverty. But I've seen where she lived and know they were in relatively good shape for the era.
These stories then become rationalizations for how they treat their own offspring. My mother always considers her own material needs before others. But that's because she was so badly deprived growing up.
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((((PR)))
I'm so glad you poured out about A.
I couldn't add a useful word to what's been said by wiser souls, but send you all comfort.
Hops
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My mother likes to present a picture of material and financial poverty. But I've seen where she lived and know they were in relatively good shape for the era.
These stories then become rationalizations for how they treat their own offspring. My mother always considers her own material needs before others. But that's because she was so badly deprived growing up.
Twisted, twisted, twisted and crinkled and melted on a windshield and run-over
ufff...yeah....it's twisted....and you state it pretty clearly. I'm understanding it even more right now.
I don't think there is any way a young person could understand what we are able to understand. Often times I wish I could have comprehended more fully that the problem wasn't all me when I was younger--but it's too complicated for kids to fully figure out--
I get the same thing there is some sort of """""rationalization"""""....Okay is that enough quotes. There is some sort of so called rationalization about how my Nar-mother was deprived. Maybe she was or wasn't but there is something about the logic that isn't logic. It's not rational.
Financial issues and emotional issues are two different items. I know people with financial issues are more stressed. Still it doesn't make 100% sense. IF what the Nar says about being deprived at some point in time now explains their actions today.... if this were logical then the opposite would hold up-- privileged people would be the most compassionate, generous, engaged, interested, caring, thoughtful, well rounded etc.
I think there were times when my mother was poor but there is still something missing in the whole picture to me. I've met poorish people who do hold sanity together even though their finances are not great. My mother also always ALWAYS had someone taking care of her, she actually never has lived independently to my knowledge. In her stories she is always alone and nobody ever helped her. Her father bought her a condo to live in. The men that she was with were always alcoholics and she never had a problem with it and she still doesn't have a problem with it SHE like alcoholics. She was never a beaten woman trying to get away from them or abhorring them, she liked them quite a lot.
These people have emotional problems that transcend any amount of resources they have or do not have.
I know I can speak for myself in saying that money is important even imperative for some things but even when I have good income I still have issues. But I know I have them.
There is a story about my great grandparents and one of them was in an orphanage, the other was an indentured servant. So the story goes that my great grandmother "went to live with nuns at an orphanage".....and yes I think it is true but it was a different time and different place and my mother never met these old relatives anyhow.
My mother suggested to me that I should become a nun. Just an out of the blue off the wall suggestion.
I was like: "I'm not sure people do that anymore, and do you know where the nearest convent is"? To which she had no response.
I mean I know in her weird, weird mind there is some correlation there between the story of a great grandparent "being raised by nuns in an orphanage and her telling me to become a nun. We are not even extremely religious. She never got me baptized, never prayed before meals. Rarely went to church.
Anyways, Narcissism doesn't get enough weight on the whole crazy scale...Narcissism doesn't really have the aura of crazy about it BUT when I really think about what they must be thinking it's the weirdest logic ever.
There is no winning sometimes, there is not even common neutral ground sometimes. All they are going to do is flip out etc.
I think telling someone to become a nun is sort of like telling someone to become a rockstar or the President. Not that there is anything wrong with being a nun it's just that there are not a whole lot of them around here and it's a pretty special calling for the people who have it.
Maybe she is a two year old in there. An insane two year old.
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We could be here a long, long, long, infinitely long time trying to figure out, speculate about, trying to imagine and put ourselves in their shoes... about how Ns became Ns. And even when it is possible to cobble together some kind of narrative (sensible or not)... they're still gonna be Ns and they're still gonna be nutz. We all do this, btw - yours truly included. It's as if we hope we can pinpoint the trigger of the problem in time travel to the past and intervene -- to a happier ending. Sometimes, doing this... we can advance our work to "understand without knowing all the facts"... to accept, be kind to them... and yet adamantly do what we need to do for ourselves.
Salsa - I think the biggest "clue" shows up in what you wrote about your mom's history. To me, it sounds like she's hung on to some bitter, awful emotion... and it seems impossible for her to let it go, or understand it, or see how it's actually controlling and defining her in ways that totally screw up her relationships with everyone except alcoholics. She is not aware she's doing this. In some ways, I can see my D being this way as well. It's like some people - for a variety of reasons - become just as addicted as an alcoholic -- to the role they play, to the self-importance of being the sober one -- all kinds of different things. Or, like in my D's case: if you can't beat them, join them...
And they wear a mask - of how they're OK despite everything they've suffered on the timeline of the past, present - and of course, they even suffer the future... because they feel powerless, helpless, to let go of their inner agony... and just change. Usually they are very competent people - under all the self-limitations they impose on themselves... the abyss which is never crossed, always reappears, which keeps them locked into whatever is under the mask. Honestly, I don't know HOW T's survive their exposure to their patients when they truly are PD people. Talk about front line, trench warfare!
Here's the thing that I think was the substance of the nightmare I screamed myself awake to:
We've all studied those personal histories in depth; learned tons and a half about PDs and abuse; learned to experience (without anxiety) levels of caring and intimacy with each other here. We trust each other to hear us out... and help us see into some of those darker corners. In a way, we've collectively become experts and mastered the material knowledge (seasoned with a lot of personal experience) of this subset of humanity. Yet, for all that -- we're no closer to really UNDERSTANDING "crazy" or being able to alter the past to avoid the crazy in the first place. Because we're not one of them; we're NOT crazy. And whether that's a function of working through our own problems, years of therapy, or just "waking up" one day and asking the right questions... we're not stuck. We change, learn, let things go... move on with our lives.
My dream was that I was sleeping and awakened by a sound. I got up in the dark to investigate and saw a person through several doorways. I called out: "who are you and what are you doing in my house?" and the person ran away. I followed and when I reached the threshold of the last doorway, I looked left: and faced malevolence in a mask which was reaching clawed hands for my throat. I started screaming the name of my friend from high school. (no clue why her... might've been irrelevant... but maybe not; we "mothered" each other through some rough times over the years).
If we chase "crazy" people and try to figure out who they are and why they're in our lives - maybe we're opening ourselves up to being a victim of the "crazy" again. Maybe we're reminding ourselves that we can't fix them; we can't time travel; we can't "undo" anything except those things about ourselves. That I know we can do - call it what you will - rewiring our brain, changing habits, forgiveness, epiphany, whatever. The experience itself matters way more than what it's called.
Hops, Thank You! The amazing thing about first just "spilling the beans" about something that troubles me via writing it all out - and hearing everyone's great responses - and truly feeling the release of the outcome of the situation... is that there is a wonderful peaceful acceptance (even if I still dislike certain details) and comfort. I've done my part as mom. The rest is up to her -- and she absolutely HAS to do it herself. No matter how painful it is. She is not a 5 year old, and if she's pulling a 4.0 then she is smart enough to figure out what she needs and go get it. And if she thinks she doesn't "need" it... it's not my place to change her mind. I don't know if having her sister and I walk into her darkness with her and get some of it on us in the process - will register with her. If it provides any insight or relief or self-awareness. Just no clue. But it was instinctive on H's and my part... to let her know a) she's not alone and we care about her and b) it IS possible to get to the other side and be done with it.
Now we wait & see what happens. Meanwhile, she's not "shunned"... we're not NC... and it's not like she has to prove anything to us; she needs to prove it to herself.
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We could be here a long, long, long, infinitely long time trying to figure out, speculate about, trying to imagine and put ourselves in their shoes... about how Ns became Ns.
Well, then I guess for some people it's a blessing that the board exists and it's great that it sounds like you are ready to move on with your life and no longer have the need to write long in-depth inquiries or blurbs about yourself etc.
Let other people do what they need to do Phoenix.
I don't have to chase crazy people because I literally live with them and can't get away from them. It's almost 6 AM here, I'm getting ready to go to another temp job and my freakin 50-60 something yr old neighbor is awake talking to herself saying "I wanna go home, I wanna go home, I wanna go home.....and then she goes into the "F*ck you B*tch",.. "Fck you B*itch",... "F@ck you bitch"....."Fck, you B*tch...it's a routine. It's like my early morning rooster crowing.
She starts many of her days with the same refrain and lucky me, I have to listen to it. She brags about being an ex-prostitute or something because I only half listen/comprehend what goes on around me AND try my hardest to tune 80% percent of the people around me out. It would be nice if my days didn't start this way, but they just do. I have very little private personal space.
I still need to vent and I choose to do it here, because I figure if somebody doesn't want to read what I write all they have to do is not read my posts.
Even though people write here because there are similarities that some people have in common regarding their stuff or issues every person still has their own individual lives that are separate from each other.
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I'm sorry. I guess it did sound like I was trying to shut down the conversation.
I was just talking about my feeling of futility about ever understanding.
You please, go on...
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My mother suggested to me that I should become a nun. Just an out of the blue off the wall suggestion.
I've wondered if this stuff is a covert way of managing interaction. It's what passes for reciprocity in the weird mental world of the N. She makes the suggestion, which sets you reeling in its strangeness and insensitivity. Then you quit trying to interact, so she can get the topic back on herself. Both of my parents do this kind of thing.
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Hi PR,
I think the problem might've been the extended "We" statements...which is kind of like being the voice for the entire board. "I" statements stay within the boundaries of one's self and sound less teacherinary.
SL--
That makes sense to me. The interaction management reminds me of a basketball game and the ball is some fast-moving thing to do with self-soothing in reaction to a suppressed inner trigger, and within the N those triggers are way too fast and unpredictable to make any sense to an observer. Safer in the bleachers.
Boat--
Oy. Rooster. Aarrgghh.
xo
Hops
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I think the problem might've been the extended "We" statements...which is kind of like being the voice for the entire board.
Thanks, Hops. It's a nasty habit that I still need coaching on... it's one those communication problems that needs more work and sure does point to my FOO-past of enmeshment, engulfment, control/domination... doesn't it? That's how I learned to "talk" to other people. It's what was modelled for me, over & over. It feels like a form of tourette's... when I'm getting to an emotional peak about something... it just takes over. Like how sometimes, I'll just start saying something in French... completely out of context.
The words and how Salsa said she heard them, were so FAR from what my intention was, but there was no way she could know that. I truly appreciate her pointing out how it felt to her and drawing her boundary. That helps me. This is one of those things - a holdover, hangover - that has gotten in the way, in my path to recovery. It's my silly (and self-sabotaging) pattern of interaction learned in that messy, dysfunctional family. My short-hand for it (fair or not) is that I lapse into "Pennsylvania Dutch"...
I can only apologize again, and hope y'all know I'm sincere and I mean it.
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I gotcha PR, wasn't offended.
hugs
Hops
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That makes sense to me. The interaction management reminds me of a basketball game and the ball is some fast-moving thing to do with self-soothing in reaction to a suppressed inner trigger, and within the N those triggers are way too fast and unpredictable to make any sense to an observer. Safer in the bleachers.
I like your description of the process Hops. In my 50's now, I finally feel I can step back from the game and see the strange interaction process that goes on with these N's. Possibly the only predictable element is the steering the focus of every interaction back on themselves. And they have all sorts of tricks to make it happen.
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PR and all...
I misinterpret words or misuse them still too. We sometimes read our fears or expectations into what people say. I know I do. My poor husband went through years and years of my misinterpreting so much of what he meant becuase I thought I knew what he was saying... but from the perspective of what I knew my parents to be saying in between the lines... does that make sense???
We are all good people! We are all trying!!
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I know just what you mean, Beth.
For years, my hubs would say something that he meant lovingly, constructively - even creatively - and all I "heard" was criticism. I'm OK. I think, because I had to blurt about my D... I really did slip into the royal "we"; it's one of my old tics, from mothering two such hard-headed, different kinds of girls. Being their mom was kinda like driving a team of horses - and both were going in different directions, constantly. I don't like that particular tic, that attribute of myself (it's something I picked up from Mom; I even sound like her - brrrr!) and rather than feeling hurt or angry or whatever... I'm actually thankful and truly do appreciate it when someone calls me on it. It's like when a good friend points out something you do, that you're completely unaware of (and because I was emotionally in a tizzy about A, then... my lens of awareness was all fogged up)... and you do hear it, accept it. realize they just did you a favor!... try to make that change... and go on. No harm done; no hard feelings.
Now, if I could just lead A to that space!! Oh well. Purpose in life, and all that.