Histrionic PD

[sKePTiKal]

They are so much like children who design a world they want to live in and then make everyone around fit into the show or else close their eyes and wish them away.

Beth, honey - this is exactly what I witnessed in my D - with horror movie accuracy. I almost said my youngest D - because of how she's acting; she's 13 months older than her sister. At 34, with a soon to be 12 yr old (who has educational challenges which sis & I believe are more emotional/psychological than anything else) and a soon to be 8 yr old...

Well. I could tell you stories that would keep you up all night. Actually, her sister has some I've begged her to NOT tell me.

In A's world - everyone should listen to her words, stories, songs, delusions, painful (and sometimes hostile; resentful) attempts at jokes and adore her as "the most interesting person in the world". She is so "different" than other people, she can't "help being interesting" to everyone -- except the blind, stupid, mean people who want to judge her all the time. (That being her sister and I who point out that if she's so drunk she can't walk/talk that she can't take care of her kids, either.)

And that simple observation is seen as persecution and the evil "judgement" (I've got more to say about she calls "judgement").

NUTSHELL VERSION of what's bugging the hell out of me:

A few weeks ago she told me she was drunk, fell 15 ft. out of a tree stand and broke her arm. Fortunately, it wasn't her dominant hand. She can't work, because she must be physically able to transport patients (!!!!) without re-injuring herself. When she showed up here last week, for a family R&R get together she proudly proclaimed to all of us that she was using alcohol to self-medicate for pain. (She has been accepted to a nursing program - oh the irony.) And that her doctor told her this was better than taking painkillers which would affect her liver. School has been good for her and I've been trying to positively reinforce this goal; she's got a 4.0 and has been helping her classmates study. But now I have some serious doubts.

Actually, nothing came out of my mouth at that moment. I always have something to say, as y'all know, but this "logic" floored me.

The next day, I told her I was having a bit of an intellectual problem reconciling the contradictions in her using exactly the same substance that caused her injury to ease the pain. That everything I knew about alcohol and painkillers was that one or the other wouldn't cause a problem unless used to excess; that it was the combination of them that is the issue. Oh... that's just wrong. She's a medical expert now. And we were off to the races to an ugly ending to the day - very late in the day.

So, the whole evening was her spewing out her "reality" from inside her distorted bubble - demanding we applaud her genius for psychosis and accept and love her this way - and us pointing out where she contradicted her previous statement from just a moment before (which she denied saying) until we hit this point of her personal pain - where we were accused yet again of judging her because she's different. Mostly, we were simply saying you've had enough to drink let's go to bed. Here have some water. And we're the bad guys trying to ruin her "happy time" when we insisted. She was on the verge of passing out. We kept trying to distract with different topics... toys... let's play instead... music... nope; she was "driving" the evening and would continue on alone if we left her to her own devices.

After that experience, all of my issues were in full red-alert trigger. I woke up screaming, an hour after finally falling asleep, in a nightmare. Poor hubs - I scared him & the dog to death. I really don't need to experience any more crazy people in my life - ESPECIALLY if I'm related to them.

Top it off: I observed some intense sibling rivalry - flat out jealousy - from older D to younger. A wants to be someone else and in the process, be "ok". She drew some tattoos on her arm, to look like her sis's tattoos... and posted them on FB.

But the absolute worst, most awful moment I experienced (and those of you with sexual abuse in the past? PLEASE look away and stop reading!) was she in the "Mommy, I love you" phase... and proceeded lean over and rub herself all over me, like she was trying to seduce me. Thankfully H, my other D, dragged her off me and back to her seat - H's fiancee was as shocked as I was (and I was sick & disgusted, too).

And it just took 15 minutes to finally type that last paragraph.

She has absolutely zip, nada, zilch awareness - even sober - of how her behavior affects other people... it's as if she is forcing us to be responsible for her and then of course, resents that. I tried to talk to her about empathy and feelings a couple days later... just in general, feeling her out... but I think we've all had enough delving into this kind of insanity for one post, today. I need to walk away, smoke and take a shower.

And yes, I know. I have about as much chance of changing A, as I had with my mom. Thanks Beth, for the opening to tell the basics of the story. I won't monopolize - but the HPD list really got my attention. Now you know why.

[SilverLining]

I've also read just as you have stated above that Narcissists get stuck at a young age specifically two. Terrible twos.

medial prefrontal cortex--self centered thinking (younger people use more)
temporo parietal junction-- thought focused on others (older people use more)

I think this is a good comparison.  I've suspected my father got stuck in many ways at the social skill level of a two year old.   He's constantly trying to define himself, usually in opposition to whatever comments or ideas are coming from others.   For him, the process of interaction consists of  explaining his likes, dislikes, opinions, beliefs, and so on.   There is no attempt to validate an-other person or explore common interests.   He can turn the weather into a topic of one-upmanship and confrontation  No big surprise he hasn't had a friend in the past 30 years.  

  

[Meh]

I think this is a good comparison.  I've suspected my father got stuck in many ways at the social skill level of a two year old.   He's constantly trying to define himself, usually in opposition to whatever comments or ideas are coming from others.   For him, the process of interaction consists of  explaining his likes, dislikes, opinions, beliefs, and so on.   There is no attempt to validate an-other person or explore common interests.   He can turn the weather into a topic of one-upmanship and confrontation  No big surprise he hasn't had a friend in the past 30 years.  

It's really exhausting to be around it.

Can he turn it off and on depending on the company around or is he always that way?

[SilverLining]

It's really exhausting to be around it.

Can he turn it off and on depending on the company around or is he always that way?

Exhausting for sure. He does a little better in more formal limited contacts.  I'm guessing with active effort the intellectual parts of the brain are able to exercise some control for a short time.  But with closer relations he seems to relax into social stupidity.  That underdeveloped temporo parietal junction just can't handle the strain for long and gives up..




    

[gratitude28]

PR-
It sounds to me like there are layers and layers of junk going on with your D. The top layer, which, sadly, I can well identify with, is alcoholism. Your D is an alcoholic. That in itself leads to lying - to oneslef and to otehrs to continue within the disease. Obviously, she is getting to a point where she can no longer hide the fact that she is sick. She will have to want help at some point or she will die from it. Is there someone else in the picture to help with the kids? And can someone maybe talk to the kids and tell them what is going on with that? I am sure you probably remember me blathering about it before, but I had to quit drinking more than 8 years ago. I was on the same path. I tell my kids now that if they find they have a problem - with ANYTHING- look for help. Your daughter is claiming alcohol will help her instead of med because she needs a reason to keep drinking.
So a large part of this acting out has to so with the alcoholism... but alcoholism is always a cover for something else. What are the underlying causes of her disorder? Was she difficult as a child? Was she abused? What is she covering up?
The narcissism coupled with the brashness of drunken behavior cannot be pretty. The sexual acting out is just plain bizarre - especially towards you. Is she jealous of you? Waqqs she trying to be as repulsive as possible to see how you would react? I fins that NM often "pushes her boundaries" - does something extrememly embarrassing or irritating - to see if anyone will "call her out."
Does any of this help? Have you thought of any more?

[gratitude28]

Silver and Mild...
Even watched a show or a movie with your N? Nothing like hours of listening to whom they find attractive, what they feel is valid, who is ugly, who is fat, yada, yada, yada. And if you don't agree, "I don't care what you say, I think...."

[Meh]

Um, well my mother doesn't harass the television. Her thing is that she prefers the television over most everything except her dog's pooh. 

[sKePTiKal]

I'm still processing Beth. Digesting. Letting some of the disgust wash off.

When she's not drinking - it's easier to see the attention-seeking, the pushing boundaries of decency because she wants ______ (?????). H, her sister, and I help each other a lot - which involves holding each other back, at times... processing... because both of have been hurt, repeatedly by A... have walked away.... then given her another chance... only to get hurt again. This is our whole shared history.

At 10, A manipulated a different custody arrangement because she was chafing under rules and limits and expectations placed on her by teachers and myself. She wasn't doing homework. She could do the work and quite well; she's gifted mathematically and musically. Unfortunately this arrangement included her sister - and H was squarely in the middle and conflicted about it. My ex - N - #1... well, I know he's part of the problem but I just don't know how - yet. H & Dad butted heads - because of his delusions/denial about A and making H that family scapegoat. H is also quite talented and she's acquired good inner skills, boundaries, and street smarts. She meets the qualifications of our Amazon tribe.

A has been showing off, hamming it up, and acting or performing as long as I can remember. At 14, while on a visit from Dad's, both H & I were in no certain uncertain terms, shut out of her life. She clung to H tho, until she went to college... and some time after she'd switched majors so many times it was clear that she wasn't going to graduate. I've slowly pried H out of automatically jumping into the role of A's mom. With the rivalry between the two... this just is NOT a good situation... and H has a low tolerance for emotional frustration. She's put up with quite enough already.

There are tons of Dad issues between the two of them. Occasionally, non sequitor - out of the blue - comments which are never elaborated on make me question just what all DID happen during those years. His issues, even at 60+, are still getting him in trouble and forcing him to move on to another location. The last one was being fired for sexual harassment. I do not think about my 5 years with him at all and have absolutely NO desire to recall any of it. Don't take this literally, but I'd just soon shoot him as try to talk anything through. His involvement with either of the girls is always worse than none - he causes additional layers of problems.

Once I was able to talk to rational A again, she told me that she feels H and I are always trying to "fix her"... and she doesn't want us to "fix her" because there's nothing wrong with her, to her way of thinking. I conceded that fair point, well made. She became an issue during my time in T, because of an awful DUI with her kids in the vehicle. The jail had to put her in a straight jacket that night because of suicidal/psychotic behavior. I talked to her on the phone at 3 am., and fully understand their decision. My T very firmly put "fixing her" off limits because of the work I was doing at the time, which was too delicate for me to have an iota of perspective... and because A is an adult. So I've adhered to those boundaries and don't do the "mom rushes in to rescue" or anything. It is - unfortunately - a dangerous place for me.

Here's the thing: both H and I have the distinct impression, feeling, perception that she DOES want to ask for help from us. I recognized that she was a.) making us responsible for her by being caught up in her "performance" of her and projecting it all over us, without acknowledging anyone else's existence around her... literally, forcing us to "wear" her shoes... and saying she only wanted someone to understand her and the b.) turning around and attacking us as mean and judgemental for our own thoughts and feelings feedback we were giving her... in a compassionate, gentle, non-threatening or judging way.

Through some assymetrical questions, I discovered some odd things. She thinks all feelings are bad and to be avoided. (Where have I heard that before, sigh?) She doesn't understand boundaries between people - not the social conventions, nor even boundaries between she and I, H and her; her and her kids. She projects what she feels onto us - and when we point out that it's nutz to misconstrue what we said into that... then, we're being unfair... and that word: judgemental. Which led me to very carefully bring up the topic of shame. I didn't pursue it at that time... just introduced it to the discussion and let it go.

We DO care about her and with some work on herself (and avoiding substances) she would be fun to be around. Neither her sister or I think she's "bad" - we just want her well. No, I'm not going to try to be her therapist. I'm still going to keep to my boundaries... and it will be a long, long time before I agree to a 3-way visit again. It's just too much a hall of mirrors and I'm still exhausted. My hubs feels like I went away physically - literally left the premises - while they were here. And the thing is, with A - EVERY time she's going to be around we're overcome with a sense of dread of what will happen this time - because something always does: it's part of her performance and her justification for blaming US for her problem when we try to create normal boundaries and sane limits.

So: Releasing the outcome... the monopoly on my thoughts, feelings... and letting it go.

OH - and the kids are better than they were; we could actually have simple fun. Additionally, nursing school requires her to make a will and H will be named guardian of the boys, which she has been willing to do for quite some time. I insisted she needed a life of her own, first - before she gave that opportunity away to clean up A's.

[SilverLining]

Silver and Mild...
Even watched a show or a movie with your N? Nothing like hours of listening to whom they find attractive, what they feel is valid, who is ugly, who is fat, yada, yada, yada. And if you don't agree, "I don't care what you say, I think...."

The last time I watched a movie with my father, I was treated to a mini lecture on what makes  a "good" movie.  He doesn't qualify this as his opinion, or personal preference.  He is actually tapping into objective truth.   And since he knows the truth, there is no room for reciprocity.  It's like listening to a college professor do a lecture.   This is pretty typical of my interactions with him.  Since I know nothing I say even registers, I just shut up and watch the clock. 

I did a search yesterday on temporoparietal junction.  I think they are really onto something with this research.   They are identifying parts of the brain responsible for self awareness, distinction between self and others, self definition, theory of other's minds.    This hits on many of the issues I've identified in my FOO.  My father is 78 years old and still seems to be caught in the childhood project of defining himself, generally in opposition to others.   He's too stuck at this level to ever have a real reciprocal interaction with an other adult. 

[gratitude28]

Silver- couldn't help but laugh at your dad's expertise. Lord, they are pathetically funny at times. Interesting... the self and others link. So much of what NM "assigns" me are her feelings. One day I was looking at a picture of my sister (we were all together) and she was wearing a dress that was pretty, but didn't completely flatter her. My instinct would have been to say that the dress was a nice color (it was). M turned around and snarled, "And don't you even say your sister looks heavy in that dress." Uhhhh... her thoughts and she puts them on me???? Then I look like the bad guy even though I had no intention of saying that. They have no boundary of self at all.

[gratitude28]

PR -
One more note I can add from the addiciton side as it pertained to me. Your D DOES want help. She wants someone to fix what is wrong with her and make her whole and not addicted. But you cannot do that for her. So she is angry that no one can fix her, but unwilling to make the change herself. She needs to get to that place herself to shed the addiction.
The father issues could have even been emotional games. Ns love to hurt others, as you well know. But, ultimately, your daughter can live with it and move on and be responsible and ADULT or she can be bratty and awful as she is being. No one has a perfect life. We all need to make our lives the way we want them to be. It is disappointing that she does not think more of her children - that is what made all the difference for me.
xxoo

[Meh]

The last time I watched a movie with my father, I was treated to a mini lecture on what makes  a "good" movie.  He doesn't qualify this as his opinion, or personal preference.  He is actually tapping into objective truth.   And since he knows the truth, there is no room for reciprocity.  It's like listening to a college professor do a lecture.   This is pretty typical of my interactions with him.  Since I know nothing I say even registers, I just shut up and watch the clock.  

I did a search yesterday on temporoparietal junction.  I think they are really onto something with this research.   They are identifying parts of the brain responsible for self awareness, distinction between self and others, self definition, theory of other's minds.    This hits on many of the issues I've identified in my FOO.  My father is 78 years old and still seems to be caught in the childhood project of defining himself, generally in opposition to others.   He's too stuck at this level to ever have a real reciprocal interaction with an other adult.  

I wrote something earlier and then my computer stalled out so second rendition:

I concur. Lets see oh yes, well my father did insist that I should take on his opinion and perspective if I didn't I was verbally badgered by him. "My way or no way"

[Meh]

And the interpretations of the N's make figuring out the cause (of their problems and our own) even more challenging.  My mother has had plenty to say about the supposedly dreadful conditions and abuses she endured in her own FOO.  So it's pretty clear she doesn't believe her own nature is the cause of her problems.  

But in my forties  I started to question these stories, which had become something of a  family mythology.  Her assessment of her own situation is part of her personality problem.   When she's "up" she'll have at least a few positive comments about people.  But then she cycles to a more negative frame of mind, and everybody outside her gets  turned into a villain.  

When I read what you wrote a few days ago it lodged in my mind. I've wondered about this more than once. How did the N become an N. My mother doesn't have a clear description of her childhood problems, I mean I know there was alcoholism and maybe that is enough to make somebody the way that she is. I do wonder if it wasn't her parents, although it could have been that formed her psyche or whatever into a Narcissist.

It's been a life long headache and as immature as it is I'm still hoping that instant karma is gonna get em.

Maybe it's not the extremeness of the abuse that causes Narcissism in children maybe it's the mental configuration of the parent that screws up the mental config of the child. Because I can not find anything glaringly horrendous that would explain how empty my mother is. She has been a curse.

Sometimes I think I should be an adult that isn't impacted by any of this---and I think of this fake personality for myself and I try to step into it. A personality that has transcended any FOO stuff and is constantly on-the-ball, like over competent. ("I'm mature, I'm competent, nothing gets to me, I'm impermeable") but it's just fake. Sigh. Somehow when it comes to FOO stuff I'm still emotionally sensitive to it.

[SilverLining]

Silver- couldn't help but laugh at your dad's expertise. Lord, they are pathetically funny at times. Interesting... the self and others link. So much of what NM "assigns" me are her feelings. One day I was looking at a picture of my sister (we were all together) and she was wearing a dress that was pretty, but didn't completely flatter her. My instinct would have been to say that the dress was a nice color (it was). M turned around and snarled, "And don't you even say your sister looks heavy in that dress." Uhhhh... her thoughts and she puts them on me???? Then I look like the bad guy even though I had no intention of saying that. They have no boundary of self at all.

It always amazes me how the members here have such similar experiences.   The assigning of her own feelings to others is one of my mother's favorite methods.  It turns the family unit into a sad tangle of screwed up relationships, because the N insists on being in the middle of everything and playing everybody off against each other.  I'm guessing next your mother goes and reports to your sister YOUR opinion of the dress?   That's the sort of game going on in my FOO.

[SilverLining]

My mother doesn't have a clear description of her childhood problems, I mean I know there was alcoholism and maybe that is enough to make somebody the way that she is. I do wonder if it wasn't her parents, although it could have been that formed her psyche or whatever into a Narcissist.

Same here.  During my early years, I got a good dose of stories about the general problems both of my parents experienced, but never any clear descriptions or specific events.  My mother likes to present a picture of material and financial poverty.  But I've seen where she lived and know they were in relatively good shape for the era.

These stories then become rationalizations for how they treat their own offspring.  My mother always considers her own material needs before others.  But that's because she was so badly deprived growing up.