Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JustKathy on July 02, 2012, 08:04:55 PM
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I say "we" in the title because I just have this feeling that most of us feel some level of guilt over this.
Let me start by saying that I never felt the slightest bit of guilt over going NC with my NMother. She was so wicked, so evil, and committed such acts of cruelty against me that I never felt anything but unburdened. But going NC with my Co-father has been a different struggle, and I'm trying to come to grips with the reasons why I feel so darned guilty. I just want to stop having doubts, and stop questioning myself. I don't know how to move forward.
I spent the better part of 40 years making excuses for the man, telling myself that he really did love me, but that he was brainwashed by NM. At one point I managed to convince myself that he was mentally retarded, in a Forrest Gump "simpleton" kind of way. After all, he never ever engaged in any serious conversation, just nodded his head in agreement or dismissed serious problems with the usual, "Oh well, you know. La la la. Yup, you know."
In the last year, since our move, he has continued to send cards and letters to an address that he has never verified as mine. The only proof NM has is finding two names that matched ours on public record as buying this house. But we were unable to sell our old house in AZ and have kept it as a rental, so our names are still attached to that property too. The thing that set off NM's online search was me unplugging the phone line, something we were planning on doing anyway since we now use our cells as our primary phones. Today another card came, this one a birthday card for my husband, again with a note saying he hopes to see us soon. I don't want to see him. I don't want to talk to him. Yet I still feel sorry for him.
In the year since going NC, I've spent a lot of time thinking about the things he did, and in looking back, they were a million times worse than I ever allowed myself to believe them to be. I always made excuses for him, I always forgave him. But lately I spend a lot of time reliving the punishments he inflicted on me when I was in high school because NM told him I was on drugs, failing in school, sleeping with boys, all things I never did. I spent three years crying and pleading with him to please believe me, and he never did. Not even the benefit of a doubt. No wiggle room. I was the "bad seed." Mother said so. When I was homeless and starving on the streets he wouldn't even give me a $20 bill for food because "Your mother says I can't help you." My God, I could have been raped or murdered out there, a vulnerable girl who was more naive than most, thanks to NM's attempts at sheltering me and trying to force me to remain in a state of arrested development.
Long story short, after a year of throwing the cards and letters away, I want to start returning them, marked: RETURN TO SENDER, NOT AT THIS ADDRESS. He deserves it. He really does. In fact, I'm sure he knows that he deserves it. And still, I hate myself for being cruel to my abusers. He abused ME, and I hate myself for hurting him.
How do you all cope? Or do you? Are we all destined to a life of guilt? Is this the trade-off for going NC. If it is, it seems that we'll never be free. They'll always have a hold on us.
Kathy
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Kathy, it's a toughie and I feel for you. I struggled with this sort of thing for a really long time. I've got to a point now where I don't feel guilty and the only reason I can think that is (other than time simply being a healer!) is that I have finally managed to separate myself from my parents and no longer feel responsible for their feelings and emotions. I was raised - I think we all were - believing that their happiness was my responsibility and knowing only too well which misdemeanours would make them unhappy. This was a very bad thing and my punishment for displeasing them was days of the silent treatment and generally being made to feel like something they'd stepped in.
I think, for me, I just kept plugging away at reasoning it out with myself and eventually it - they - stopped being part of my life and my responsibiliity. I suppose, when young, it is easier to cope with one parent's abusive behaviour if we convince ourselves that another parent is okay. Figuring out later on that isn't the case is tough, along with coping with knowing that, by withdrawing we are effectively cutting off their 'source' and that will hurt them, although in a way that is different to most people being hurt. By that I mean most people aren't abusive and so we don't need to cut off contact with them in order to be healthy ourselves.
I think the key thing for me when I read your post was your remark that you "hate yourself for being cruel to my abusers". I think I'd work on that. Deciding to stop a person abusing you isn't an act of cruelty on your part. Logically you know that, but I think the little child part of us still feels that it is up to us to make them happy by taking whatever they give out. I think that's the bit I'd try and work on. One exercise I've found useful was writing to my inner child, as an adult. Basically you write to them talking about what you know they've been through, validating it, explaining, as you would to a child, why it was wrong for people to do x/y/z to them, why it's okay to say no, keep yourself safe etc, and then reassuring them that you're there for them, you'll keep them safe now, they don't have to do x again or see y or speak to z.
Something else you could think about, if you haven't done it before, is writing an honest letter to you dad, telling him about the various things that went on, how you feel about them now and that you are trying to come to terms with it and move on with your life and for that reason you don't want to be in touch with him. I've written lots of letters like that, in the early days I used to send them, these days I keep them to myself.
I suppose the thing that is difficult for us is to put ourselves first and think about how we feel, rather than how they feel. Another skill that takes practise, I guess?
Keep plugging away. Keep telling yourself what you know to be true - it's not only okay, it's essential not to be in unhealthy relationships, whoever they are with and for whatever reason. Maybe you can keep a list of all the reasons you don't want to be in contact with him and read it every time you feel guilty (you might find it in your hand constantly!). If it's any help, I don't think that you have any reason to feel guilty at all. You deserve a good life, a happy life. Working through what happened is part of that.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Kathy)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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((((((((((((((((((((((((Kathy))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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If you do write him, perhaps just tell him this:
I always made excuses for you, I always forgave you. But lately I spend a lot of time reliving the punishments you inflicted on me when I was in high school because my mother told you I was on drugs, failing in school, sleeping with boys, all things I never did. I spent three years crying and pleading with you to please believe me, and you never did. Not even the benefit of a doubt. No wiggle room. I was the "bad seed." Mother said so. When I was homeless and starving on the streets you wouldn't even give me a $20 bill for food because, "Your mother says I can't help you." My God, I could have been raped or murdered out there, a vulnerable girl who was more naive than most.
You could tell him that though you forgive him and wish him peace, contact is too painful for you because he's never acknowledged your need to be believed and cared about. And that's why.
You could suggest to him too that he visit a counselor or pastor, and take your letter with him. And that if they can help him find a way to respond appropriately to you to help heal the past, things could be different. But without that, though you forgive, you are not able for your own health's sake, to be in contact.
That would give him a plain, reality-based opportunity to see if he can repair things enough to be able to hear something from you, some day.
Unlikely, I know. And if you don't want to do that, I don't think you have to. But if you do, if you think it would resolve that sorrow--it does offer your father a chance to atone, to whatever degree he is capable of. And you're giving him truth in a merciful way.
hugs
Hops
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And still, I hate myself for being cruel to my abusers. He abused ME, and I hate myself for hurting him.
Kathy,
You can think/express your feelings about how EF treated you without being cruel. "Being cruel" is not a necessary result. I'm guessing what you really feel and want to express is the pain & hurt you felt (& still feel). Perhaps you fear that if you expressed that pain, the truth of your feelings could be perceived as being cruel. But, being cruel is not your intention. However, if the other person perceives it as such, you have no control over that.
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Wow, thank you everyone for your amazing insight and words of wisdom. For all the years I've spent on a therapist's couch, I've yet to speak to a mental health professional who "gets it" the way another N victim does.
The idea of writing a letter is a good one. I'd like to do that, just to close the book, and let him know how I feel. The problem is that I see him reading it, but not comprehending it. I have tried SO many times to tell him how I feel, and all I've ever gotten was the "simpleton" routine of babbling and changing the subject to mindless chit-chat. When that failed, my husband made several attempts at getting through to him to no avail. When I was disinherited, Co-F kept saying that it was no big deal because they had no money left. Hubby told him straight up, "She doesn't want your money, she wants your LOVE." The response was something about needing to wash his car.
The last conversation I had with him was when he told me he had given the GC a treasured family heirloom that had been promised to me, done to please NM, who did it to spite me. I broke down in tears and started having chest pains. Hubby took the phone from me and told my father, "Can't you hear her? Can't you hear what you've done. She's in PAIN." Again, F started chanting "la la la la can't hear you," and proceeded to talk about his tomato garden while I cried and screamed in the background. That was last phone call we ever took from him.
I guess it can't hurt to write the letter and hold onto it. At the very least, it might be a healing experience for me to put my feelings onto paper. If I were to send it, it would be after NM dies (that is, if she really is dying of cancer, something that still seems rather suspect). I just don't know if he'll ever truly get it, or if he even cares if he hurt me. He HAS to know that he did. I think what matters to him, is that he gave 110% to his Queen, and to his Golden Child, and anyone who fell through the cracks, oh well, that's life. He took care of what was important to him. I just wasn't one of those things.
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Oh, I should probably explain my reasons for not sending a letter while NM is still alive.
1. She brings in the mail, and goes through everything. She'll make sure that he never sees the letter.
2. If by some chance he DOES get the letter, he'll immediately show her because he's hard wired to report everything to her. I can't begin to imagine what she'd do at that point, but it would be BAD. It's just best for everyone if that kind of contact not happen while she's still breathing.
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Hi Kathy,
I can really identify with what you're saying. I think I finally got to a stage with my mum where I don't expect her to behave like a 'normal' person would and for some reason that makes it easier to deal with. The only way I can think of explaining it is by comparing her to my son, who is autistic. His brain is wired differently, so there are things that he just can't do - his brain doesn't allow him to do them. I think it's probably the same with some of this stuff - their brains are wired in such a way that some things just can't happen. They can't see how bad they make you feel or accept or acknowledge it - their brains just can't process that and do something useful with it. Over the years that has sunk into my head more and more and I've found myself at a point now where I feel I 'get' that they won't get it!
Writing letters has always helped me, it's just good to get it out of your system and down on paper. Keep writing them, you can write every day, especially if you aren't going to send them. I found I made the most progress when I started focussing on what was good for me, what I needed to do to help myself instead of thinking about everyone else. There are times when all I want to do is curl up on the sofa with a bar of chocolate and a crap film or a gossip magazine. There was a time when I wouldn't have allowed myself anything like that, now I think it's okay if, for some reason, I need that from time to time so I do it and I don't worry about what anyone else thinks of it. I honestly think it gets easier eventually. xx
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Kathy,
As I read your letter, I see my father. He was much better than yours... he shut his eyes to a lot, but stepped in when necessary. I still get very angry when I think of how he pretends and puts his head in the sand. Reading your post, I do feel bad for your dad in a sense. He must be lonely in the world he chose. But I feel more for you and what you went through. In my case, I had my father to refute what my mother said about me - you did not. That is beyond weak - that put you in harm's way. Sending you love and strength - you need them both and you need to know what you are doing is right for your family. I wish I could take away the guilt for you. I think, sometimes, we are programmed for guilt because we are good people and we feel...
Love, Beth
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Thanks everyone. Twoapenny, I think your comparison to your autistic son is a very good one. In the case of a Co-Father, I tend to think that they're born with "normal" brains, so to speak, but somewhere along the line something in that brain becomes detached and stops functioning normally. While an N is born with a mental illness, the Co parent, I believe, learns the behavior (though they may be born with it, I don't know). My feeling is that at some point they shut down, because they simply don't know what else to do. In Beth's case, her Co-F retained enough of his identity that he was still able to interfere, but for many, they seem to revert to an almost adolescent state because they just don't how to react to the situation they've been placed in. My father handled it in in a very childlike way, by rocking back and forth, pretending he couldn't hear or see. My NM did his thinking for him. He seemed unable to process his own thoughts. He had one goal in life, and that was to please his queen and his "namesake," the GC. There were no independent thoughts to detract from that one very focused goal.
This morning I actually opened the card he sent to my husband and read it. The greeting said, "Dear Dave. Hope you have a happy birthday. Sure would be nice if you would bother to call us sometime." Wow. My first thought was crap, how nasty can you be (similarly, my birthday card basically said, "Happy Birthday, your mother is dying"). My second thought was that it sounded too aggressive hor him, and that NM had probably told him to write that. My third thought was more of a reaction than a thought. "Gee dad, it sure would have been nice if you had BOTHERED to stand up for your daughter, or BOTHERED to show up to my high school graduation, or BOTHERED to acknowledge the MBA that I spent years struggling to earn, or BOTHERED to include me in your will, even if you had left me nothing but a box of match sticks."
I just don't how to handle this situation with these letters and gifts, which will never stop coming. What would you guys do? Would you allow them to keep coming, or send them back marked Not at This Address, Return to Sender. I feel SO horribly violated, that NM jumped to the conclusion that we moved without telling them, and that she went to the trouble to stalk me, track me down, and rub in my face that she found me. Another five months from now will mean another Christmas Box of Doom, and I don't want anymore of them coming. I want these people removed from my life. I'll never be able to remove them from my thoughts, but I'm sick of the constant reminders. That IS the reason that these cards and letters are being sent. NM wants to be sure that I am constantly reminded that I can't run from her. "I Will NOT be ignored."
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Thanks everyone. Twoapenny, I think your comparison to your autistic son is a very good one. In the case of a Co-Father, I tend to think that they're born with "normal" brains, so to speak, but somewhere along the line something in that brain becomes detached and stops functioning normally. While an N is born with a mental illness, the Co parent, I believe, learns the behavior (though they may be born with it, I don't know). My feeling is that at some point they shut down, because they simply don't know what else to do. In Beth's case, her Co-F retained enough of his identity that he was still able to interfere, but for many, they seem to revert to an almost adolescent state because they just don't how to react to the situation they've been placed in. My father handled it in in a very childlike way, by rocking back and forth, pretending he couldn't hear or see. My NM did his thinking for him. He seemed unable to process his own thoughts. He had one goal in life, and that was to please his queen and his "namesake," the GC. There were no independent thoughts to detract from that one very focused goal.
This morning I actually opened the card he sent to my husband and read it. The greeting said, "Dear Dave. Hope you have a happy birthday. Sure would be nice if you would bother to call us sometime." Wow. My first thought was crap, how nasty can you be (similarly, my birthday card basically said, "Happy Birthday, your mother is dying"). My second thought was that it sounded too aggressive hor him, and that NM had probably told him to write that. My third thought was more of a reaction than a thought. "Gee dad, it sure would have been nice if you had BOTHERED to stand up for your daughter, or BOTHERED to show up to my high school graduation, or BOTHERED to acknowledge the MBA that I spent years struggling to earn, or BOTHERED to include me in your will, even if you had left me nothing but a box of match sticks."
I just don't how to handle this situation with these letters and gifts, which will never stop coming. What would you guys do? Would you allow them to keep coming, or send them back marked Not at This Address, Return to Sender. I feel SO horribly violated, that NM jumped to the conclusion that we moved without telling them, and that she went to the trouble to stalk me, track me down, and rub in my face that she found me. Another five months from now will mean another Christmas Box of Doom, and I don't want anymore of them coming. I want these people removed from my life. I'll never be able to remove them from my thoughts, but I'm sick of the constant reminders. That IS the reason that these cards and letters are being sent. NM wants to be sure that I am constantly reminded that I can't run from her. "I Will NOT be ignored."
Hi, Kathy.
If I may make a suggestion or two.......
I would make a ritual of BURNING the unwanted cards and use the outdoor grill to do so. Cook some hot dogs and/or hamburgers while you're at it and have a backyard BBQ with some friends. When other unwanted mail show up, have a friend of yours write on it, "NOT AT THIS ADDRESS, RETURN TO SENDER". That way, the handwriting can't be easily recognized.
As for the Box of Doom, either have the same friend write on the box, "NOT AT THIS ADDRESS, RETURN TO SENDER" or simply give the box to the Salvation Army or Good Will for a tax write off. Let the NBitch get her own knickers in a twist when she gets NO response from you or Hubs. If she knows she's getting under your skin, she will continue her malicious torture because she's getting self-gratification from it. I can understand the feeling of violation because, in a sense, (if I may be so blunt), this is her form of masturbation and using you as her object to get her rocks off. Let her find some other way for her to go screw herself without using you or hubs. (Maybe send her to Sigmund Freud.)
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Thanks Bones. I appreciate the bluntless. You're absolutely right!
Right now she thinks that we're getting the letters because she has no proof that we aren't (no proof that we ARE, but also, no proof that we aren't). I've destroyed all of the checks, so none have been cashed. Logic would tell a normal person that they have the wrong address, but we aren't dealing with a normal person. I'd really like to return the latest letter and leave her wondering what became of all the stuff she's been sending. Since she's convinced herself that we've moved, returning the letters might send her on another investigate search, which will be a wild goose chase since there are hundreds of people in CA alone with the exact same name as me. Maybe some other Kathy will receive a box of gift cards, socks, and snarky notes this Christmas. ;)
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Hi Kathy,
First of all I asked my mum to stop writing/contacting us. She carried on. Then I just ignored it all and she still carried on. Then I wrote to her threatening to take out an injunction against her (after speaking to a solicitor) - at which point she stopped for the most part, although she still does things like sending my son a letter from Father Christmas (in the UK there are firms you can pay to send letters to children from Santa - she gets hers done through a charity that is supposed to prevent cruelty to children, which is ironic given the damage she did to us and the fact that her husband molests them, but there we are). It might be worth talking to a solicitor about it. The advice I was given was to write specifically stating that I wanted all contact to stop and listing the different ways it was occuring. In the UK it doesn't have to be nasty or viscious to be considered harrassment; if you've made it clear you don't want it and it carries on then there are things that can be done, although you generally have to pay for the legal action yourself if it doesn't include violence. Obviously laws are different in different places but it might be worth checking it out in your area and seeing what they suggest. During my ignoring phase I was just throwing things away without opening them; I didn't want to read whatever nonsense she'd written but, like you, it used to upset every birthday and Christmas and I'd dread the post coming. I found that having any kind of contact with her - even if just to tell her I didn't want contact - kind of fed her, whereas ignoring her completely cut off her supply. So perhaps check out legal options and see if anything there is useful - if not maybe write once saying don't contact me again and if they keep coming throw them straight in the bin (take them to a public bin so you aren't tempted to open them a couple of days later!) and if she sends a Christmas box just take it straight to your nearest food bank/homeless shelter or just give it to someone who's on their own and might appreciate some extras at that time of year - if she's going to be irritating it might help to change her annoyingness into something good for someone else. Take time to think through your options and see what feels best. Remember to focus on you and what you want - not how she might react/respond to what you do. Keep thinking me, me, me!
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Hi Kathy,
First of all I asked my mum to stop writing/contacting us. She carried on. Then I just ignored it all and she still carried on. Then I wrote to her threatening to take out an injunction against her (after speaking to a solicitor) - at which point she stopped for the most part, although she still does things like sending my son a letter from Father Christmas (in the UK there are firms you can pay to send letters to children from Santa - she gets hers done through a charity that is supposed to prevent cruelty to children, which is ironic given the damage she did to us and the fact that her husband molests them, but there we are). It might be worth talking to a solicitor about it. The advice I was given was to write specifically stating that I wanted all contact to stop and listing the different ways it was occuring. In the UK it doesn't have to be nasty or viscious to be considered harrassment; if you've made it clear you don't want it and it carries on then there are things that can be done, although you generally have to pay for the legal action yourself if it doesn't include violence. Obviously laws are different in different places but it might be worth checking it out in your area and seeing what they suggest. During my ignoring phase I was just throwing things away without opening them; I didn't want to read whatever nonsense she'd written but, like you, it used to upset every birthday and Christmas and I'd dread the post coming. I found that having any kind of contact with her - even if just to tell her I didn't want contact - kind of fed her, whereas ignoring her completely cut off her supply. So perhaps check out legal options and see if anything there is useful - if not maybe write once saying don't contact me again and if they keep coming throw them straight in the bin (take them to a public bin so you aren't tempted to open them a couple of days later!) and if she sends a Christmas box just take it straight to your nearest food bank/homeless shelter or just give it to someone who's on their own and might appreciate some extras at that time of year - if she's going to be irritating it might help to change her annoyingness into something good for someone else. Take time to think through your options and see what feels best. Remember to focus on you and what you want - not how she might react/respond to what you do. Keep thinking me, me, me!
I concur with Tup!
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Kathy... ((((((hugs)))))...
My mom used to send boxes & boxes of stuff and for the longest time it would enrage me or feel as tho' she was so into projecting herself onto me (an emotional pin the PD on the ass game)... I yelled at her when I received things I'd already said I didn't want... took unopened boxes right to the landfill as if it were toxic waste...
Somehow - one day it started to feel like, "OH. There's a another box o' crap from mom. More junk to throw away. OK." And then, weirdly enough -- she stopped sending them. Don't ask me, how they "do that"... but it was what I wanted... so I never said a word about it to rock the boat.
It took me a long time to realize that the boxes that arrived were just boxes... full of "stuff" (and some of it was pure junk...)... and that this stuff was as emotionally neutral as a box of rocks. And since for the longest time Mom wouldn't listen to me, understand that my house was stuffed to the gills, I didn't want/need any more STUFF - no matter whose it was - and she thought/believed/that her version of who I am would want this stuff - because she DOESN'T know me... only her crazy, made up version of me... which is more her than me...
since I wasn't ever going to be able to show her the real ME... and I was done trying to get her see me, in any case... all that emotional reaction, all those feelings, rage, grief, frustration (why won't she just leave me alone???!).... kept me locked into that power struggle, battle of life and death, my autonomy versus her "moms are forever; you're forever who I say you are" circle of hell. Once the emotions were burned out and a box was just a box - and nothing more - I found out I was free. Because no matter what she did, tried to do... I didn't get upset anymore -- it was just mom - some wack old lady with delusions, she has no fangs, she can't ruin my life anymore, or make me feel like shit... because emotionally I didn't take the bait, jump into the game by being outraged or hurt or whatever. (I still have to watch myself carefully though - it's easy to "forget" that lesson.)
Since that point, even the phone calls have gotten more spaced out - and I guess I mean that both ways, LOL! She calls less frequently and while there's still the same old broken record monologue... there's a bit more bizarro, wacked out crazy in her "presentation". And I only answer when I feel like it; feel up to it, now... which makes a huge difference for me.
But the whole point of this "story", is that the KEY to getting where the cards & letters - unbidden; unwanted; the symbol of relationship you don't acknowledge - don't bother you... is to have the feeling that they don't bother you. HOW one does that... well, I think that HOW is different for each and every one of us. My journey wouldn't help you figure out your own. But maybe knowing there is a point to get to, you'll find your way. (And it's only one point... there are others.)
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http://www.ehow.com/how_5909952_report-harassing-mail-postmaster-general.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_5909952_report-harassing-mail-postmaster-general.html)
This indicates that your emotional distress is enough to justify a report.
I think I'd do it. You deserve your serenity.
love
Hops
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Thanks for the link Hops! I've bookmarked it and will hold onto it in case it becomes necessary to use it.
For the time being, I'd prefer not to do something that drastic because I know that it's EXACTLY what she wants me to do. She wants the ammunition to cry to friends and family about what a horrible thing I did to hurt a poor woman who is close to death. A few years back, when she was first diagnosed with "four weeks to live," she sent me this package containing about $50 worth of junk costume jewelry, along with an over-the-top maudlin letter that said I had always been her favorite child, and that she wanted to leave her beloved daughter her treasured jewelry. She then had my sister email me to reiterate that the house, the bank acounts, and remaining possessions were all being willed to the GC. It was a set-up. I'm convinced that she was hoping I would blow up, and in my anger, send back the cheap jewelry so she could cry to everyone about how I had ripped out the heart of a dying woman. So I tossed the package in a drawer and haven't looked at it since.
For the time being I want to do something that will give ME some satisfaction, namely, leaving her with egg on her face. She volunteers for the local police department and considers herself an honorary cop, even calls herself a CSI. Right now she's sitting there gloating, bragging on her policewoman skills by telling everyone that she found me. I want to burst that bubble. Filing a restraint order will confirm that she did indeed find me and is getting under my skin and, well, back to that self-gratification analogy ...
The other unknown is whether or not she really does have terminal cancer. If she does, I'd like to be able to call "checkmate" on her before she kicks off. If it turns out that she's faking the cancer, and the harassment persists, then I'll consider the next step.
What I find so frustrating about dealing with these issues today, as opposed to ten years ago, is that little thing called Google. It's become so easy to track someone down and stalk them. I refuse to hide, and make my Twitter and Facebook accounts private, or not have a blog, or not sell on eBay, or not have an online store, or any of the things that make it easy for a person to track my movements. I do take some precautions, like specifying Facebook posts and photos as being for "friends only," but still, Google can turn up so many things. It's hard, because I'm always juggling things and trying to strike a balance between living a normal life and trying to stay hidden. I hate it. But I guess it's something that we all have to contend with. Even people who don't use social media can be easily located. The Internet has given us so much (like this group), and at the same time, has taken so much away.
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I think the good thing is that you have options, Kathy, it helps to know there are different ways to deal with things and if one thing doesn't work there's something else to try.
A long time ago now, someone told me that the best form of revenge is to live a really happy, healthy life. I've tried really hard over the years to do just that. Sometimes it feels a bit one step forward and two back, but on the whole I'm making progress and my life is in a much better state now than it used to be. It was what you were saying about the internet that made me think of it, places like Facebook are great for crowing about how happy you are, how lucky you are to have such a fab husband, how blessed you are to have a good job/nice home and so on :) I know my mum (and other members of my family) are at their happiest when I'm in a bind so it always makes me smile when I think of someone telling them how great I'm doing. I think eventually you'll get to a point where you'll think "They know where I am. So what?" And, as Phoenix said, where something can arrive in the post and you either pass it on or throw it away without thinking twice about it. It's nice when you get to that stage :)
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A long time ago now, someone told me that the best form of revenge is to live a really happy, healthy life.
That sure is true with Ns, isn't it? My NM has always hated that I had a good life and lived well ... not riches, but my own home, a car, a good job ... things that she couldn't stand me having. I know that if she could have one dying wish, it would be to see me fail, to end up poor, homeless, and in failing health. She's not going to get that wish. Even if I were to fall on hard times, I'd never give her the satisfaction of knowing about it. Instead, I'd chat with friends on Facebook about my "new Mercedes," and let her head spin around like Linda Blair's. :P
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It took me a long time to realize that the boxes that arrived were just boxes... full of "stuff" (and some of it was pure junk...)... and that this stuff was as emotionally neutral as a box of rocks. And since for the longest time Mom wouldn't listen to me, understand that my house was stuffed to the gills, I didn't want/need any more STUFF - no matter whose it was - and she thought/believed/that her version of who I am would want this stuff - because she DOESN'T know me... only her crazy, made up version of me... which is more her than me...
This resonates with me so much... I had a shocking realization too one day. And I remember one day I was in th pantry, and there was a food I don't especially like, and I had this weird thought, "I could make it for the kids." And that is one of her thoughts - if she doesn't like it, make it for someone else or give it to someone else. For Christmas she made us these crappy bracelets with cheap beads and didn't even finish them off, so when you went to put it on, the beads spilled all over the floor. She thought that was funny. For herself she buys beautiful, expensive beads and jewelry and hoards it and thinks people are jealous of her.
BTW - whatever the item was in the pantry, I think I threw it away, b/c I like to make my kids happy. I don't give them things they don't want - except vegetables :)
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no matter whose it was - and she thought/believed/that her version of who I am would want this stuff - because she DOESN'T know me...
This was actually the thing that made me decide to go NC almost ten years ago. We had just bought a new house that was VERY small. We had almost no closet space, and were trying to downsize. NM has always sent "stuff" for Christmas, and as with you, it was never stuff that I would have wanted or needed. It was stuff that she forced on me to further her own agenda. I remember one year a very pricey Beanie Baby, not because I wanted it, but because she wanted to brag to everyone that she had contacts who could get it for her. Anyway, the year we moved, I asked for gift cards rather than stuff. We really needed gift cards, not more stocking stuffers that we had no space for. She came absolutely unhinged. You would have thought the world was ending. I got a three page letter about how I had broken her heart by rejecting her gifts (and by "gifts," I mean socks, clothes that were not in my size, more socks). After reading her three-page guilt letter, I said, NO MORE.
and I had this weird thought, "I could make it for the kids." And that is one of her thoughts - if she doesn't like it, make it for someone else or give it to someone els
Yep, my NM did that too. In most houses, people might think of disposing of unwanted food by giving it to the dog, or in my case, the outdoor wildlife. My mother gave the old junk that she wouldn't eat herself to me. Good for you for recognizing that you were repeating your NM's pattern, and put the brakes on. I never had children, and one of the reasons why was that I always feared becoming my NM. One of my therapists told me that the opposite is actually true. Most daughters of N's are so finely tuned into what their own mothers did to manipulate them that they know how to turn it around. I'll never know what kind of mother I would have been, but my NM's cruelties are with me 24/7, so I like to think that I would have been able to break the cycle. I'm glad that you did. :D
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((((((((((((((((JustKathy))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Bones
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Kathy - you know, there is some truth to the idea that daughters of Ns DO work hard at changing things around. In fact, I think any kind of "mothering" role helps us process and let go a lot of the "old crap". I'm not suggesting you actually have kids! LOL... but perhaps being a Big Sister, or connect with a girl scout or brownie troop... something on that order, might offer you some new experiences and insights -- and I know you'll more than likely find opportunities to get emotionally "involved" - in a good way - with some of those girls.
This week, in addition to our latest grandson and his parents, we have a couple of their friends and two more little girls staying with us. The little girls have come through some N-times themselves, I've discovered and Mom's working overtime to rebuild their confidence and emotional health. I just wanna scoop them up and hug them until they're all "all better" and are ready to go run & play like little Amazons again.
Where's that universal, unconditional, love - protection - safety - and well-being machine? I gotta bunch o' quarters to feed it and maybe I'll hit the jackpot and it'll start streaming out all over the place!!
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Ugh .... OH UGH! I may have to use that postal harassment link after all, depending on what happens here.
I was getting ready to return Co-Father's latest card, and was trying to think of something to have a friend write on it that would convince NM that she had the wrong address. Maybe "Same name, wrong guy, RETURN" or something like that. BUT, here's where I freaked out. Assuming that NM would start Googling my name to try and find me, and hopefully get sent on a wild goose chase, I tried it for myself to see what results I would get. O.M.G. There are about 20 sites with my name and address, with other things, like my birthday, that link to me. One page had my picture next to my name and address! It was a photo that I had uploaded to my blog years ago and taken down, but apparently not before one of those "detective" sites grabbed it. Wow. You can run but you can't hide.
I did do one small thing today that might make her head explode. I made sure that 100% of my Facebook page is set to private, and opened a second, decoy page, that identifies me as still living in Arizona. For my favourite books, I listed, "Mommy Dearest, "Toxic Parents," "Trapped in the Mirror," and every book I could think of relating to N mothers. It's a very small "up yours," but if she finds it on one of her stalker searches, she'll not only be confused about the location, but her head will spin around like a top, and just the thought of that makes me very very happy. :D
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Ugh .... OH UGH! I may have to use that postal harassment link after all, depending on what happens here.
I was getting ready to return Co-Father's latest card, and was trying to think of something to have a friend write on it that would convince NM that she had the wrong address. Maybe "Same name, wrong guy, RETURN" or something like that. BUT, here's where I freaked out. Assuming that NM would start Googling my name to try and find me, and hopefully get sent on a wild goose chase, I tried it for myself to see what results I would get. O.M.G. There are about 20 sites with my name and address, with other things, like my birthday, that link to me. One page had my picture next to my name and address! It was a photo that I had uploaded to my blog years ago and taken down, but apparently not before one of those "detective" sites grabbed it. Wow. You can run but you can't hide.
I did do one small thing today that might make her head explode. I made sure that 100% of my Facebook page is set to private, and opened a second, decoy page, that identifies me as still living in Arizona. For my favourite books, I listed, "Mommy Dearest, "Toxic Parents," "Trapped in the Mirror," and every book I could think of relating to N mothers. It's a very small "up yours," but if she finds it on one of her stalker searches, she'll not only be confused about the location, but her head will spin around like a top, and just the thought of that makes me very very happy. :D
(((((((((((((JustKathy))))))))))))))))))))))) Good for you!
Bones
Now to find a way to get the other stuff off of Google.....................
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Now to find a way to get the other stuff off of Google.....................
I don't think you can ever remove the personal information that those "detective" sites post. Some of them have my history dating back almost 30 years, to every house I've ever owned and every city I've ever lived in. I'm thinking that the only thing a person can do is confuse those sites by putting erroneous information out there. At least that way, a search will produce conflicting information, but what's out there is out there, unfortunately. :(
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Now to find a way to get the other stuff off of Google.....................
I don't think you can ever remove the personal information that those "detective" sites post. Some of them have my history dating back almost 30 years, to every house I've ever owned and every city I've ever lived in. I'm thinking that the only thing a person can do is confuse those sites by putting erroneous information out there. At least that way, a search will produce conflicting information, but what's out there is out there, unfortunately. :(
It appears so. :(
I still have my thinking cap on.................
Bones
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It's the nature of the Internet. I could live in a bubble, use aliases, and hide from the world, but that would only make me miserable and give her a victory by forcing me to alter my life. You CAN mess up a Google search though. For example, creating a fake Twitter or Facebook page with your real name, but posting photos of someone else. My problem is that I was too consistent at the start, always using the same names and monikers on all sites. At one point my moniker on this board was the same name I use on public boards, and I noticed some of the posts showing up in search, so I changed it to "JustKathy." And for anyone reading, DO be aware that posts in this group show up in Google search, so NEVER use your real name.
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It's the nature of the Internet. I could live in a bubble, use aliases, and hide from the world, but that would only make me miserable and give her a victory by forcing me to alter my life. You CAN mess up a Google search though. For example, creating a fake Twitter or Facebook page with your real name, but posting photos of someone else. My problem is that I was too consistent at the start, always using the same names and monikers on all sites. At one point my moniker on this board was the same name I use on public boards, and I noticed some of the posts showing up in search, so I changed it to "JustKathy." And for anyone reading, DO be aware that posts in this group show up in Google search, so NEVER use your real name.
Thanks, Kathy!
I recall that, at one time, I could search Google for my own address and then remove it so that no one else could Google it. I'll have to double-check that to see if I'm remembering that correctly or mis-remembering it.
Bones
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Well, my FOO is pretty computer illiterate... but I absolutely appreciate the warning, nevertheless!! (There are others out there, that I should fear more than I do...)
I use my real name here - at least part of it - because I know I can't "hide" myself and my real feelings and my differing view of my past family life -- forever. At some point, I feel I have to "come clean"... and if my FOO-members can't handle the truth -- OH WELL. I'm the one that has to live with myself... and I absolutely no longer can stand feeling guilty, when it's someone else who's being difficult, manipulative, playing games or trying to push their denial of reality (and their own behavior/decisions) into a lack of trust, or accountability or blame/fault... making it MY responsibility for their issues/problems/refusal to cooperate -- or heal themselves.
It still comes up; just dealt with this again last week, with my brother. He tried to turn a finalized joint decision into an argument and point of contention and wasn't quite admitting that he HAD agreed... and we HAD discussed it ad infinitum (about 10 months, in fact)... and only now had cold feet and wanted to blame me for "pulling a fast one" -- again -- sigh. I didn't let him get away with it... but neither did I let it escalate. And then I felt guilty for two days... because I wasn't able to "make it all better" - because of how he is. It's not my fault he can't remember, doesn't take notes, refuses and balks at having to do anything in writing... and I'm no longer volunteering to take the blame. If that bothers him, you'd never know it! LOL....
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and if my FOO-members can't handle the truth -- OH WELL.
You know Phoenix, you make a darn good point with this. Why should we care?
My original name on this site was poozybear, something that I chose without even thinking about it. When the Internet first came into my home 15+ years ago, that was the name of the dog I had, so I used it for my email address, and continued to use it on any site that asked for a nickname. I though it would be a good idea to have a recognizable monikor to use on all sites, as I do a lot of business online. For that purpose, it's served me well. If you search the name you'll find my eBay listings, Zazzle shops, Etsy shop, and anything else I have going on. BUT, one day I googled myself, and that's when I saw some posts from this group.
At the time, I freaked, but in hindsight, why did I? Maybe it was the initial shock of realizing that my "therapy" was available to the public. Now, after reading your comment, yeah, I agree. Why should I care if NM, or anyone else, knows that I'm talking about the things she did to me? It's not like I'm making up stories. She DID commit all of the sadistic acts that I've discussed here. Bottom line, if you don't want your child discussing the fact that they were abused, then don't abuse your child. So from this day forward, I don't give a hooey what she sees or hears. So there! :twisted:
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Hey, Kathy... sounds like a plan!
Ya know, (just thinking out loud here; musing) I think we children of Ns... sometimes... get into these habits of "overcaring". (Yeah, there I go generalizing again...) What I mean, is we care more about "caring type" type things... because it's like we're trying to fill the container of "caring" up to what is considered a "normal" level.......
.... to make up for the lack of caring that surrounds an N, like a black hole. Sometimes, we get sucked into the black hole no matter how much caring we can generate (even if - maybe, "when" - that caring comes in the form of self-defensive anger and outrage).
I just saw the Star Trek prequel - when Spock and Kirk were "kids"... and supposedly the first time the crew were totally together on the Enterprise... and they were about be sucked into a black hole generated by the explosion of the Romulan death-ship...
and Kirk was talking to Scotty... "We need more power!! Get us out of here, Scotty!"
and he comes back for the first time with: "I'm giein' her all she's got Cap'n!!"
and the Enterprise slingshots away from the black hole at warp-speed.
My right-brain self sees a parallel association there, with the "caring" and N-black holes. Can't put that into words... but maybe you'll get it from word-picture anyway.