Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: KayZee on August 24, 2012, 03:53:11 PM
-
My brain is still spinning. . .
A little bit of back story: My sister (my only sibling) and I haven't really had a relationship for four years. We see each other at some holidays and family gatherings, but that's it. We don't really speak on the phone, visit each other, etc. Looking back, my NM sort of dumped me as a source of N-supply back when I started dating my husband, going to therapy, setting more boundaries, living my own life, sticking up for the people my NM abused, and she made a big effort to woo my younger sister (who NM had spent the preceding couple of years treating horribly). Since then our roles as daughters have reversed. I've returned to my rightful childhood place as the scapegoat, and sis is back to being the golden child. I had a confrontation with my mother four years ago, my sister leaped to NM's defense and the two have been like bobbsey twins ever since. They talk on the phone five times a day. Whisper about me in front of me when I see them. NM has totally triangulated my relationship with my sister, but makes phoney speeches about how she's 'so sad' that sis and I aren't close and pleads with me to let her (NM) be the one who mediates and brings us back together.
Anyway, both NM and sis are at their worst after spending a number of days visiting with each other. So I should have been on my guard, knowing sis went to stay with NM last week....But I wasn't. I saw I missed a call from my sister last night. And I stupidly/naively thought, Wow. She's calling me. She actually wants to talk things out and have a relationship with me. (I've tried to approach her before in person, email, phone. And talk about outstanding conflicts. Past arguments. Patching things up. But every time she either shuts me down, says she doesn't have any interest, looks at me blankly or goes complaining to NM who injects herself firmly back in the middle.)
So I call my sister back, and we start a little small talk about her job, my pregnancy, etc. And I'm still thinking Wow! Maybe I can have some family after all! Maybe I can have one relationship with a blood relative that isn't polluted by NM! Maybe sis really does care, miss me, wonder what's going on in my life.
And then it happens...Like a shoe dropping. Or a door closing. Sis tells me she's calling because she wants to know if I still know this film agent in LA, and if I can set up a meeting for her. (Stupid Kay! Last time my sister called a year ago, it was the same thing...She was manic. Talking about some children's picture book series she'd been working on and wondering if my writing agent would represent her.)
This bothers me so deeply and makes me feel so sad for so many reasons:
1) I felt like I was being used and objectified in the same way that my parents (especially NM) have always made me feel that way. I felt like sis wasn't seeing me as a person. As a sister. As the sister she's barely said a word to in four years. This kind of lack of acknowledging that we aren't close and only calling me when I'm a means to some end that she wants. It seemed totally N. And yet, I don't think my sister is NPD. If anything, she's always seemed more BPD, but when she hangs out with NM, she mirrors NM attitudes and callousness.
2) I already set up a meeting for sister with this woman six years ago! And the woman was nice enough to say, yes, sure, I'll read any script that sis writes and finishes if she wants to send it to me. But my sister hasn't ever done the work. And she still doesn't have a finished product (script) to show her. She basically just stayed up late one night, jotting down this idea for some Twilight-esque thing and woke up the next day convinced five hours of work produced the best thing Hollywood has ever seen. Sis is basically asking for a B.S. meeting (about nothing) with no commensurate achievement, a.k.a. an actual, completed piece of writing. That attitude enrages me with its N-ness! And it puts me in really mortifying position. I see no conceivable way that I could ask this woman to meet with my sister to discuss nothing but grandiose plans and fantasies about "amazing ideas" sis has never applied herself to or seen to fruition.
So I was kind of stammering...deeply pissed off and sad. Feeling used. Feeling loneliness and family-less. And I said, sure fine. I'll email this agent for you. But I don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting. I will forward her the finished piece of work when you have it and ask if she'll give it a look. But until you have a product to show her, I can't really help you. And then, I found an exit and hung up.
So I set a boundary, but it still felt inauthentic. Because I wanted to tell my sister how hurt and used it made me feel that she ignores me, gossips about me with NM, doesn't appear to want any relationship with me at all until she wants something. But I didn't, because I felt certain that she would skirt the conversation and just go trotting back to NM, telling her how difficult I am and how selfish for not sharing my contacts. Co-N Dad did the same thing to me a few years ago, bullied and pressured and harassed until I agreed to give his novel to a colleague of mine; the whole thing was really uncomfortable and made me feel equally depressed and exploited.
What would you all have done? Do you try to be emotionally authentic when setting boundaries with N-like family members? Or do you try to keep your feelings to yourself, so the wolf pack won't shred them to ribbons?
God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant. I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done. Finished. And I want nothing to do with them. There's no humanity there. They just don't see people as people.
-
Hi Kay,
I did try to be real and describe my feelings to my family in the early days, when I wanted to have a relationship with them and wanted them to change the way they treated me in order to do that. They just can't understand or comprehend feelings, so it was a fruitless exercise and one that just gave them more ammunition to throw at me. It's very hard to cope with. I read something in a book - I can't remember which one now but if it comes to me I'll post the title - where the author compares it to expecting a pre school child to understand a book written for an adult. Their brains just aren't ready for it and can't process the information, so you can read them the book a thousand times and it still won't make sense. The N parent (or sibling/whoever) is in a similar situation - they just can't understand how you feel, no matter how hard you try to explain it. Think of it as a kind of injury to the brain that stops that understanding being there.
It is very hard to cope with. I think you did the right thing in the way you dealt with your sister today. I found writing letters that I didn't send really helpful for getting out how I felt about the whole thing. It took a long time but eventually I accepted them the way they are and I don't look to them for things they can't give me (love, affection, understanding, acceptance). I had to learn to give myself those things and to stop trying to get them from other people. I found that very hard and still struggle with it sometimes, but it's coming.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((Kay))))))))))))))))))))))))))
-
KayZee,
I relate. I have an estranged/(divorced me) sister. It has worked better for me once I cut out all efforts to build a bond between us. Love your sister if you wish, but with plenty of distance between you. It won't be easy getting used to her not being a controlling factor in your life, your thoughts, triggers that may pop up, but by detaching gradually, and with determination, it can happen.
Brightest blessings,
tt
-
Kay honey...
here's the thing about sharing your feelings with Ns.... they use them to hurt you... that's how they boost their own egos.
It may feel as if this is the "last straw" in their campaign of pretending you don't exist or matter... but in truth, if you can fully appreciate how many times they've done this to you -- and how nothing you can do will change that; make them care or feel badly about how they've treated you -- you will have taken the very first step toward being free of them. Yes, it's completely, totally 180 degrees opposite of how you would conduct yourself with normal people... fact is, they' ain't normal. And you can't teach them how to be, can't make them realize or "wake up"... they simply do not have the ability to understand that you have feelings -- and that their actions provoke feelings in you, that are miserable to carry around. It's as if that whole part of their brain has been removed.
As CONs - children of Ns - we're made to feel so responsible for THEIR feelings - scapegoating, abused for it in fact... that we expect (naturally) that things work the other way around too. They don't. Ns get away with what they do to others precisely because they don't have that part of the brain that lets them accept that others have feelings.
So, this changes our perspective on the "problem". Because even if you can get your brain around the above -- we still have the feelings, the instantaneous reactions, the deep down embedded yearning to stay "hooked" into this sham-form of a "relationship" with these people. It's the only form of relationship we're allowed. (Sorry - I'm back on that Professorial "we" style of talking again...) I had to accept the new perspective on the problem, and realize that it was my job to figure out what to do with my feelings -- since they didn't even recognize their own responsibility in how I felt about their treatment of me, there was no possible way for me to expect or ask that they help me feel better, you know?
The whole situation is a house of mirrors, so if you need to read the above a couple times. As a kid, I used to have nightmares about fun houses and mirrors that distorted everything -- particularly and especially -- how I saw myself.
You already have the "toolbox" to create a solution: you are already responsible for your own feelings, you can express them, understand what boundaries are, and are on the path to loving yourself in a healthy way. So, do yourself a favor -- grieve for "what doesn't exist": this is your own love, empathy and caring that you share with other "normal" people. Be kind to yourself and honor this capacity you have -- that love that hurts -- because the people who should be horrified and shocked that they've hurt you AREN'T. It is a true sadness that humans like this exist. And then resolve to try to protect yourself from them, in the future.
This means - for me - not having emotional expectations of them - expectations of being treated well. This means understanding that their behavior is part of their own PD; it has absolutely nothing to do with me -- therefore it's not logical (even in an emotional logic system) for me to feel shame about them, or to protect others from them, or to protect them from the normal expectations of normal people. I still go through the motions of the sham-relationship (my inner child Twiggy isn't so happy about that, btw... she wants me to be way more aggressive) with my mom and my brother. The only way I CAN continue on like this, is because I've been practicing that solution. It works for me -- you may have to make some adjustments in it for yourself. It's not perfect either -- I find I have to "check" with someone else -- my hubs or any other normal person -- from time to time, to ask if my confusion over something said -- or their emotional reaction -- registers as abnormal with other people, as it does me. And sometimes I slip up and fall back into my old hurt and outrage... that's when I have to give myself a hug, tell myself it's OK -- it's understandable that they'd get under my skin and I'd lose "control" over myself... and just let it go.
I can't rely on them - at all - to care about how I feel. My hubs is another story - my friends - my kids... they all care how I feel... but ultimately I'm still the one who's responsible for managing my feelings; knowing when to comfort myself and when to let things go.
((((((((((((Kay)))))))))))))
Ns are so frustrating and infuriating and confusing and horrifying and demanding and unfeeling - like Terminator robots - it's easy to forget to take care of oneself.
-
My brain is still spinning. . .
A little bit of back story: My sister (my only sibling) and I haven't really had a relationship for four years. We see each other at some holidays and family gatherings, but that's it. We don't really speak on the phone, visit each other, etc. Looking back, my NM sort of dumped me as a source of N-supply back when I started dating my husband, going to therapy, setting more boundaries, living my own life, sticking up for the people my NM abused, and she made a big effort to woo my younger sister (who NM had spent the preceding couple of years treating horribly). Since then our roles as daughters have reversed. I've returned to my rightful childhood place as the scapegoat, and sis is back to being the golden child. I had a confrontation with my mother four years ago, my sister leaped to NM's defense and the two have been like bobbsey twins ever since. They talk on the phone five times a day. Whisper about me in front of me when I see them. NM has totally triangulated my relationship with my sister, but makes phoney speeches about how she's 'so sad' that sis and I aren't close and pleads with me to let her (NM) be the one who mediates and brings us back together.
Anyway, both NM and sis are at their worst after spending a number of days visiting with each other. So I should have been on my guard, knowing sis went to stay with NM last week....But I wasn't. I saw I missed a call from my sister last night. And I stupidly/naively thought, Wow. She's calling me. She actually wants to talk things out and have a relationship with me. (I've tried to approach her before in person, email, phone. And talk about outstanding conflicts. Past arguments. Patching things up. But every time she either shuts me down, says she doesn't have any interest, looks at me blankly or goes complaining to NM who injects herself firmly back in the middle.)
So I call my sister back, and we start a little small talk about her job, my pregnancy, etc. And I'm still thinking Wow! Maybe I can have some family after all! Maybe I can have one relationship with a blood relative that isn't polluted by NM! Maybe sis really does care, miss me, wonder what's going on in my life.
And then it happens...Like a shoe dropping. Or a door closing. Sis tells me she's calling because she wants to know if I still know this film agent in LA, and if I can set up a meeting for her. (Stupid Kay! Last time my sister called a year ago, it was the same thing...She was manic. Talking about some children's picture book series she'd been working on and wondering if my writing agent would represent her.)
This bothers me so deeply and makes me feel so sad for so many reasons:
1) I felt like I was being used and objectified in the same way that my parents (especially NM) have always made me feel that way. I felt like sis wasn't seeing me as a person. As a sister. As the sister she's barely said a word to in four years. This kind of lack of acknowledging that we aren't close and only calling me when I'm a means to some end that she wants. It seemed totally N. And yet, I don't think my sister is NPD. If anything, she's always seemed more BPD, but when she hangs out with NM, she mirrors NM attitudes and callousness.
2) I already set up a meeting for sister with this woman six years ago! And the woman was nice enough to say, yes, sure, I'll read any script that sis writes and finishes if she wants to send it to me. But my sister hasn't ever done the work. And she still doesn't have a finished product (script) to show her. She basically just stayed up late one night, jotting down this idea for some Twilight-esque thing and woke up the next day convinced five hours of work produced the best thing Hollywood has ever seen. Sis is basically asking for a B.S. meeting (about nothing) with no commensurate achievement, a.k.a. an actual, completed piece of writing. That attitude enrages me with its N-ness! And it puts me in really mortifying position. I see no conceivable way that I could ask this woman to meet with my sister to discuss nothing but grandiose plans and fantasies about "amazing ideas" sis has never applied herself to or seen to fruition.
So I was kind of stammering...deeply pissed off and sad. Feeling used. Feeling loneliness and family-less. And I said, sure fine. I'll email this agent for you. But I don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting. I will forward her the finished piece of work when you have it and ask if she'll give it a look. But until you have a product to show her, I can't really help you. And then, I found an exit and hung up.
So I set a boundary, but it still felt inauthentic. Because I wanted to tell my sister how hurt and used it made me feel that she ignores me, gossips about me with NM, doesn't appear to want any relationship with me at all until she wants something. But I didn't, because I felt certain that she would skirt the conversation and just go trotting back to NM, telling her how difficult I am and how selfish for not sharing my contacts. Co-N Dad did the same thing to me a few years ago, bullied and pressured and harassed until I agreed to give his novel to a colleague of mine; the whole thing was really uncomfortable and made me feel equally depressed and exploited.
What would you all have done? Do you try to be emotionally authentic when setting boundaries with N-like family members? Or do you try to keep your feelings to yourself, so the wolf pack won't shred them to ribbons?
God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant. I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done. Finished. And I want nothing to do with them. There's no humanity there. They just don't see people as people.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((KayZee))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I can relate!!!!
Just went through a similar situation a couple of weeks ago with a member of the NFOO. It's NOT pleasant and it's definitely NOT fun!
It hurts when the realization hits that the NFOO don't see you as a person, as a human being with feelings but only as an object to be USED for their own self-gratification. During the brief phone conversation I had, the NFOO kept trying to pry into what I was thinking and feeling about what the NQueen-Bitch did to my NGCB and me and I stated that I will not discuss it. If he wanted to know WHY NGCB made the decisions he did, he will HAVE TO ASK HIM as I do not discuss speculations. NFOO got royally pissed off because I DARED to set a boundary. I terminated the call a few minutes later.
It really hurt to know that the ONLY time the NFOO "condescends" to speak to me is ONLY WHEN THEY WANT SOMETHING or to USE me as an OBJECT! Now that they know that I'm not afraid to say "NO" to their demands, I don't expect to hear from NFOO anymore.
I guess the only phamily we have is each other......here.
Bones
-
I think you handled this situation absolutely perfectly, ((((KZ)))).
You set an appropriate adult boundary with her that essentially meant
that you would not be used as a tool, or professionally embarrassed, and
that placed the responsibility for her "project" back in her own lap where it
belonged. That was awesome.
Then you named the hurt, the pain, the sorrow and rejection you feel,
and brought it here, where hearts do understand how your felt so UNvalued and UNloved
when your sister, after 4 years !! --- only contacted you to "network."
Oh how sad that is.
But with her, in the present, you did it perfectly.
As for the grief ... I think you are managing that with great maturity and truthfulness
too.
I'm sorry, KZ. I wish I had a sister. Like you.
xo
Hops
-
Thank you so much, Tup.
the author compares it to expecting a pre school child to understand a book written for an adult. Their brains just aren't ready for it and can't process the information, so you can read them the book a thousand times and it still won't make sense. The N parent (or sibling/whoever) is in a similar situation - they just can't understand how you feel, no matter how hard you try to explain it. Think of it as a kind of injury to the brain that stops that understanding being there.
This is an amazing and truly helpful analogy. I want to, like, write it on a stickie note and keep it in a very prominent place as a reminder to myself. I really appreciate the encouragement. And I'm so inspired by the way you've come to accept FOOs limitations.
It's the kind of healing work that's hard because it seems to require being in two frames of mind at once: On the one hand, I feel like I'm trying to work on some intimacy and social anxiety issues; you know, put myself out there more, use my voice, communicate my feelings to people (excluding FOO). And on the other, I feel like I'm trying to build up emotional barriers between me and FOO; you know, be less forthcoming with NM and co-N family who will only narrow in on my weak points like snipers. Blah...
Anyway, you all are amazing as always. I'm so glad to have a community (you) that understands and relates.
Kay x
-
(((t.t.)))
It's encouraging to know it gets better. I'm so sorry you're in a similar situation with your sister. It's mind-boggling to me that a parent would poison a relationship between sisters. And it still amazes me the way siblings can grow up in the same environment, yet have completely different parents.
In writing this I realized, I have a lot of healing work to do where my sister and dad are concerned. For some reason it's harder to give up my expectations of them. I guess I feel like NM doesn't have a choice (her brain is broken, making her selfish and malicious). But I feel like my sister and dad have souls, and they could break the cycle of abuse if only they could wake up from the evil spell NM has cast on them, if only they cared a little bit less about sparing themselves from her wrath and just accepted that she'll be unhappy and vengeful no matter what they do.
But you can't make people change. And my sister had things arguably worse than I did. I had the "luxury" of being the scapegoat--and I'm not even being sarcastic, that allowed me a small glimmer of will and self--whereas my GC sis had to fully vacate her spirit and body and surrender to MOM.
You're absolutely right.. . I can have empathy with my sister and love her at a distance. But I need to work on accepting that my mother is more of a sister to my sister. And that's the way they both want it.
-
Thank you P.R.!
Because even if you can get your brain around the above -- we still have the feelings, the instantaneous reactions, the deep down embedded yearning to stay "hooked" into this sham-form of a "relationship" with these people. It's the only form of relationship we're allowed.
I think I just needed to hear permission that it's okay to do the sham-relationship thing: to set boundaries, but otherwise keep my emotional self to myself where FOO is concerned. I do this with NM, but haven't yet learned or accepted that I needed to do it with my sister and father too.
So much of my experience in therapy had to do with the therapist urging me to be authentic/assertive about my feelings and communicate them to others (I don't think the therapist suspected that I was from a narc family and I didn't then either), so sometimes I feel like I'm failing or regressing when I don't share. But you're right, I don't think my sister would have heard or respected my feelings. And besides, that doesn't matter. All that matters is I really feel, and experience, and heal them on my own. That's my work. And she wouldn't have been able to help me with that anyway.
I'm feeling a little more clear-headed about it today. And, yes, it's most certainly not the last time FOO will make me feel objectified and used. Terminator robots is so spot on!
I think I need to accept the problem isn't just my NM. Although it may have started with her, my whole family is now behaving like Ns and I need/want to relate to them all in the same self-protective way I relate to Her. Of course, that brings up feelings of abandonment and family-less-ness. But I need to work through that on my own. That's my own healing work. FOO certainly isn't going to be there to lend an ear or a helping hand.
-
That's an interesting observation Kay - that now the rest of the FOO is acting like NM. Guess they feel their status depends on it, huh? Or maybe it's unconscious -- simply what they're used to, their comfort zone -- and they haven't given it a second's thought. In my FOO there was additionally, a clear choice between "value systems"... that were overly linked to "behavior systems". Of course, one was demonized, made the scapegoat... and the other's was always "right" and "perfect".
Over the years, my mom hasn't changed a bit... except maybe it's harder to tell what's her delusions and what's cognitive decline. She'll be 80 in a few months. My brother is the same way... and he is actually the more dangerous of the two to navigate for me. Sometimes, in dysfunctional FOOs, sibs will form an alliance - which we did. Temporarily. I went out of my way to try to help him with the results of our shared trauma -- the way it affected him was different than what I went through. I mentored/mothered him to a pretty stable network of life support outside of the family -- friends, sports, school. He doesn't remember any of that. When he also turned on me - played the scapegoat game - that was kinda the last straw for me.
Now, his wife is in the scapegoat position. Both mom & bro think she's the "crazy" one -- and have even helped disrupt her relationship with her mom. Of course - she's stressed to the limit and actually feels crazy herself, poor thing. We communicate in relative secret. She really needs simple validation of what's going on - the gaslighting, being the outsider in the family, and the constant boundary intrusions and violations that go on. But mom has so much control -- or tries to have -- so much control over bro, SIL, and grandkids -- that bro simply has designed his life so that he doesn't have to live there. NM can be so negative -- that no one wants to be there much at all. Another generation that regards "home" as dangerous and uncomfortable... sigh.
What will be interesting - is what happens when Nmom dies; assuming of course, that bro outlives her: he's in a typical avoidance workaholic ratrace and has already had a heart attack, stents, and refuses to slow down. (Denial is a powerful trait in our FOO... I'm constantly watching myself to make sure I'm not falling into the same pattern -- sometimes I do -- and bless you guys! you put me on the right track again.)
So, I guess you'd say I'm "LC" with all of them. It's easy for SIL to trigger me - after all, that was my life experience for so long. Bro and I must work together in the business -- and it's a constant struggle, with his P-A, denial, now memory issues... and his refusal to participate in a slightly more involved fashion. I no longer feel obligated to point the behaviors out; to protest how he treats people, including me. It's kinda obvious to everyone that he's got strange issues. Mom gives me nothing -- it's always a me to her interaction, unless I even deny her that. I'm a professional "uh-huh er" now. I went through a phase where I would make some positive suggestions (to counter her total negative perception)... but those hit a brick wall.
Maybe one of my biggest revelations, was finally figuring out that my FOO's definition and picture of "who I am" and "how I am" was just as subject to the mental illness or PD or dysfunctional games - whatever - that they depend on to exist... and "who I know I am" and what other people feed back to me, as "how I am"... are world's apart. Being able to separate my own "definitions" from theirs... helped SOOOO much with my level of emotional pain. Sure it still hurts -- but my world's no longer shaken or threatened or in danger -- because of their warped ideas of me. I've processed so much cognitive dissonance in the last 5 years... and that's been so beneficial... it feels kinda like a vitamin or a vaccine!
LOL!!
-
Thank you so much, Tup.
the author compares it to expecting a pre school child to understand a book written for an adult. Their brains just aren't ready for it and can't process the information, so you can read them the book a thousand times and it still won't make sense. The N parent (or sibling/whoever) is in a similar situation - they just can't understand how you feel, no matter how hard you try to explain it. Think of it as a kind of injury to the brain that stops that understanding being there.
This is an amazing and truly helpful analogy. I want to, like, write it on a stickie note and keep it in a very prominent place as a reminder to myself. I really appreciate the encouragement. And I'm so inspired by the way you've come to accept FOOs limitations.
It's the kind of healing work that's hard because it seems to require being in two frames of mind at once: On the one hand, I feel like I'm trying to work on some intimacy and social anxiety issues; you know, put myself out there more, use my voice, communicate my feelings to people (excluding FOO). And on the other, I feel like I'm trying to build up emotional barriers between me and FOO; you know, be less forthcoming with NM and co-N family who will only narrow in on my weak points like snipers. Blah...
Anyway, you all are amazing as always. I'm so glad to have a community (you) that understands and relates.
Kay x
Hi Kay,
For a really long time I felt like I had three voices in my head - my learned responses to every single thing that was going on (largely negative and things I wanted to get rid of), my new responses (healthier but often felt 'wrong' and I'd have to have a dialogue with myself about every little thing) and me - what I wanted, felt, needed, regardless of whether it was right or wrong, okay or not. It was exhausting, so I completely understand what you mean about trying to build yourself up whilst also putting up barriers. It feels contradictory, but another nice analogy that I read (again, I can't remember where!) was to think of your boundaries as a fence around your home with a gate - you open the gate to let nice people in and for you to go out to meet nice people, but you close it on the not so nice. That really helped me figure out who I wanted to be around and for how long. I still find it difficult - I'm lonely because I got rid of a lot of the bad and I haven't got lots and lots of good yet - more than I used to but I still find long periods of time when I'm alone. But I'd rather be lonely sometimes than put up with bad behaviour, so it's swings and roundabouts. You get there in the end xx
-
((((Bones))))
It really hurt to know that the ONLY time the NFOO "condescends" to speak to me is ONLY WHEN THEY WANT SOMETHING or to USE me as an OBJECT! Now that they know that I'm not afraid to say "NO" to their demands, I don't expect to hear from NFOO anymore.
This is so painful and infuriating. You did an amazing job being frank, and enforcing your boundaries. You're right. We have no obligation to explain the personal reasons behind these boundaries to people who will not hear our explanations, respect our feelings and even consider for a second that they might not be anything other than 100% entitled and right.
I guess I'd forgotten the way Ns turn everyone else around them into N-bots--that FOOs literally adopts an N's heinous behaviors and attitudes. Ns infect people. And sis is infected.
This stuff has been a wake up call like a cold bucket of water in the face. Sis keeps pushing via email. Telling me she's leaving for LA in 30 days and can I set up this meeting for her before she goes? And I just keep defending the boundary, saying sorry, I'm happy to forward this woman the work once you have a completed body of work. But don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting (based on nothing, just some vague idea you've barely scribbled down). It seriously feels like she just wants me to ring this woman (who I barely know) up and ask her to take my sister on as a client (just because my sis is inherently wonderful). AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.
You are very right about this family, here. I'm seriously so grateful to be able to speak honestly about this to you all... And feel there are people in the world who hear me and relate.
Kay x
-
((((((((P.R.))))))))))
I went out of my way to try to help him with the results of our shared trauma -- the way it affected him was different than what I went through. I mentored/mothered him to a pretty stable network of life support outside of the family -- friends, sports, school. He doesn't remember any of that. When he also turned on me - played the scapegoat game - that was kinda the last straw for me.
I am so sorry for your brother's selective amnesia. You deserve a sibling/ally--regardless of everything you've done for him--but the fact that you have done all that, and he can't seem to show you the same amount of understanding and respect... I feel your hurt.
I relate to that strange bind with your SIL too. After I stepped away from my family a little bit--limited my contact and stopped giving them quite as much material they could scapegoat me about--NM and sis found a new scapegoat in the form of my sister's husband. They were horrible to him. Sis publicly raking him over the coals for NM's entertainment and satisfaction. It led to sis and BIL divorcing, after which the way they abused him just escalated. It was horrible to hear about, but then, really difficult to reach out to him. Where NM is concerned, I feel like I'm endangering myself and my recovery the more I step in to come to someone else's rescue. Anytime I have in the past, it turns into one of those situations where the person I'm trying to rescue from drowning tries to pull me down too.
I should preface this by saying I hate Sam Vaknin. (I watched that documentary "I, Psychopath" on Youtube). But anyway, I went looking today and found S.V. has this to say about non-N family members behaving like narcissists:
"Question:
Is narcissism "contagious"? Can one "catch" narcissism by living with a narcissist?
Answer:
The psychiatric profession uses the word: "epidemiology" when it describes the prevalence of psychopathologies. There is some merit in examining the incidence of personality disorders in the general population. Mental health is the visible outcome of an intricate interplay between nature and nurture, genetics and culture, the brain and one's upbringing and socialization.
Yet are personality disorders communicable diseases?
The answer is more complex than a simple "yes" or "no". Personality disorders are not contagious in the restricted, rigorous, medical sense. They are not communicated by pathogens from one individual to another. They lack many of the basic features of physical-biological epidemics. Still, they are communicated.
First, there is the direct, interpersonal, influence.
A casual encounter with a narcissist is likely to leave a bad aftertaste, bewilderment, hurt, or anger. But these transient reactions have no lasting effect and they fade with time. Not so with more prolonged interactions: marriage, partnership, cohabitation, working or studying together and the like.
Narcissism brushes off. Our reactions to the narcissist, the initial ridicule, the occasional rage, or the frustration – tend to accumulate and form the sediment of deformity. Gradually, the narcissist distorts the personalities of those he is in constant touch with, casts them in his defective mould, limits them, redirects them, and inhibits them. When sufficiently cloned, the narcissist uses the people he affected as narcissistic proxies, narcissistic vehicles of vicarious narcissism.
The narcissist provokes in us emotions, which are predominantly negative and unpleasant. The initial reaction, as we said, is likely to be ridicule. The narcissist, pompous, incredibly self-centred, falsely grandiose, spoiled and odd (even his manner of speech is likely to be constrained and archaic), often elicits smirks in lieu of admiration.
But the entertainment value is fast over. The narcissist's behaviour becomes tiresome, irksome and cumbersome. Ridicule is supplanted by ire and, then, by overt anger. The narcissist's inadequacies are so glaring and his denial and other defence mechanisms so primitive that we constantly feel like screaming at him, reproaching him, or even striking at him literally as well as figuratively.
Ashamed at these reactions, we begin to also feel guilty. We find ourselves attached to a mental pendulum, swinging between repulsion and guilt, rage and pity, lack of empathy and remorse. Slowly we acquire the very characteristics of the narcissist that we so deplore. We become as tactless as he is, as devoid of empathy and of consideration, as ignorant of the emotional makeup of other people, and as one track minded. Exposed in the sick halo of the narcissist, we have been "infected".
The narcissist invades our personality. He makes us react the way he would have liked to, had he dared, or had he known how (a mechanism known as "projective identification"). We are exhausted by his eccentricity, by his extravagance, by his grandiosity, by his constant entitlement.
The narcissist incessantly, adamantly, even aggressively makes demands upon his human environment. He is addicted to his Narcissistic Supply: admiration, adoration, approval, attention. He forces others to lie to him and over-rate his achievements, his talents, and his merits. Living in a narcissistic fantasyland, he compels his closest, nearest and dearest to join him there.
The resulting exhaustion, desperation and weakening of the will are fully taken advantage of by the narcissist. He penetrates these reduced defences and, like a Trojan horse, spews forth his lethal charge. Gradually, those in proximity to him, find themselves imitating and emulating his personality traits. The narcissist also does not refrain from intimidating them into compliance with his commands.
The narcissist coerces people around him by making subtle uses of processes such as reinforcement and conditioning. Seeking to avoid the unpleasant consequences of not succumbing to his wishes, people would rather put up with his demands and be subjected to his whims. Not to confront his terrifying rages, they "cut corners", pretend, participate in his charade, lie, and become subsumed in his grandiose fantasies.
Rather than be aggressively nagged, they reduce themselves and minimise their personalities. By doing all this – they delude themselves that they have escaped the worst consequences.
But the worst is yet to come. The narcissist is confined, constrained, restrained and inhibited by the unique structures of his personality and of his disorder. There are many behaviours which he cannot engage in, many reactions and actions "prohibited", many desires stifled, many fears insurmountable.
The narcissist uses others as an outlet to all these repressed emotions and behaviour patterns. Having invaded their personalities, having altered them by methods of attrition and erosion, having made them compatible with his own disorder, having secured the submission of his victims – he moves on to occupy their shells. Then he makes them do what he has always dreamt of doing, what he has often desired, what he has constantly feared to do.
Using the same compelling procedures, he drives his mates, spouse, partners, colleagues, children, or co-workers into collaborating in the expression of the repressed side of his personality. At the same time, he negates their vague suspicion that their personality has been replaced by his when committing these acts.
The narcissist can, thus, derive, vicariously, through the lives of others, the Narcissistic Supply that he so craves. He induces in his army of zombies criminal, romantic, or heroic, impulses. He makes them travel far and fast, breach all norms, gamble against all odds, fear none – in short: he transforms them into that which he could never be.
The narcissist thrives on the attention, admiration, fascination, or horrified reactions lavished upon his proxies. He consumes the Narcissistic Supply flowing through these human conduits of his own making. Such a narcissist is likely to use sentences like "I made him", "He was nothing before he met me", "He is my creation", "She learned everything she knows from me and at my expense", and so on.
Sufficiently detached – both emotionally and legally – the narcissist flees the scene when the going gets tough. Often, these behaviours, acts and emotions induced by the proximity to the narcissist result in harsh consequences. An emotional or legal crisis, a physical or material catastrophe - are common outcomes of doing the narcissist's bidding.
The narcissist's prey is not equipped to deal with the crises that are the narcissist's daily bread and which, now, he or she are forced to confront as the narcissist's proxy. The behaviour and emotions induced by the narcissist are alien and the victim experiences a cognitive dissonance. This only aggravates the situation. But the narcissist is rarely there to watch his clones writhe and suffer."
-
Thank you Tup!
It feels contradictory, but another nice analogy that I read (again, I can't remember where!) was to think of your boundaries as a fence around your home with a gate - you open the gate to let nice people in and for you to go out to meet nice people, but you close it on the not so nice.
I can't even begin to tell you how much hope and understanding this metaphor gives me. It makes perfect sense (to my brain and emotions alike). I hope the universe sends lots of nice people to your gate very soon. Empathetic, honest, fun people who are ready for intimacy and relish two-way friendships!
so much love and gratitude, Kay
-
Hi KayZee,
This summed it up for me:
God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant. I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done. Finished. And I want nothing to do with them. There's no humanity there. They just don't see people as people.
That was exactly how I felt when I finally decided to go NC. It hurt - a lot. There were so many emotions rolling around in me .... pain, rage, guilt that I wasn't enough, mad at myself for allowing them to hurt me, feeling used, feeling used up....
If I am reading correctly, it was at that point where part of me said - enough - no more.
For me the only way to stop it was NC. I truly hope that some can find a balance, but for me I couldn't.
((((((KayZee))))))
My family used me until I felt so dried up there was nothing left for me.
Not anymore - I've changed my focus from them to my current family (H and kids).
And life is so much better.
Love to you - I am so sorry you are going thru this.
Peace
-
Hi Kay - I find Vaknin to be a really difficult way to think about the dynamics in an Nish family. But he's technically correct. Problem is, I think, that he speaks from the perspective/voice of the N in the situation. Each other person in that dynamic responds according to their own inherent personality.
The narcissist invades our personality. He makes us react the way he would have liked to, had he dared, or had he known how (a mechanism known as "projective identification").
This is the one I'm personally most familiar with. What I called, a few years ago - the sock puppet syndrome. IF this is what has happened to your sister, I do feel for her. It can sometimes feel like being "possessed" by an evil spirit... or like one is truly a split personality.... truly another form of PD. But this one is curable -- albeit the work is pretty intense. But, I didn't manifest N-characteristics at all -- in fact, it was as if there was my rational mind, then something else which I called a "ball of strong, intense resistance"... and I really had no "ego" -- in the classic freudian sense. I was a chameleon; I could change my colors - all of me - to "fit in" just about anywhere. The behavior was based on that innate primal need to be "seen" and "recognized" - mirroring and marking - Hi!!! It's me - Amber!!! (and no I'm not just like you, mom...). Ironically, it was my ability to adjust myself to new groups, values, philosophies... the same thing Nmom used to plant her poison arrow... that was my escape route. But I was like a blind-folded person... trying to find "me" in all those places. I needed help to stop looking everywhere but inside my self. That was the thing that was never, ever allowed -- and the greatest taboo, sin, transgression against "mom".
What my mom transferred to both my brother and I was a pathological passivity. It still manifests in me -- in my lack of will to commit to goals that I want to pursue (not just goals that I think I "should" pursue, for rational reasons). It still grinds its foot on the back of my neck, growling that I don't deserve anything... I'm not worth being taken care of... taking care of myself... in my ability to gather myself in the present moment and prevent myself from being steamrolled by any other person in the general vicinity... that passivity's secret message is "nothingness" and massive toxic shame... and it drives me sometimes, to babble incessantly looking for someone who can reflect me back to me -- because I can't always do that for myself.
I'm not entirely clear on what my brother's struggles are. Outwardly -- he is overwhelmingly passive-aggressive. When I give him a chance to explain himself - what comes out is so N; that I grew up trying to teach him, tutor him in his schoolwork thinking he was a little "slow". It wasn't learning ability... it was that he was so locked into what he saw, believed, the way his mind works -- life and people and everything with himself at the very center -- and he NEVER went out the gate that exists in that "boundary" of experience.
Real life example: for 4 years, we've been working on my Dad's estate, taking over the business, working our way through adjusting to new income levels, etc. At least I have - my brother insists on working at his job, despite the fact that he has monthly income from the business equal to his annual salary. He "needs" this job to avoid the N-mess at home... and despite the grueling demands of the job (and emotional demands at home) and the resulting heart attack... he's not giving up the job. It's his "safe place" -- I understand that. I also understand it's a trap.
The estate tax return was audited. We expected it to be audited. That process took 2 years or more. Last week, we finally resolved the last remaining issue and controversy -- more in our favor than I believed was possible. I was overjoyed. It was a great outcome. My brother was beside himself with anger and looking to blame the trustee and CPA; to file a negligence suit even... why? Because he couldn't understand that the calculation used to value of the business (which was done 4 times, independently each time) is standard operating procedure and that the IRS bean counters - in their search for any possible error, oversight, or let's face it - more tax liability... found 1 court case that in 1 instance, denied the calculation used to value the company. He couldn't understand that this is the "luck of the draw"; his expectation is that our "people" should've been omniscient and omnipotent and prevented this from happening in the first place. He doesn't accept that we were just unlucky in that we drew this level of scrutiny. That idea can't exist in his understanding.
It was this one idea that interfered with his ability to see the positive outcome. It over-ruled that ability. The folks we rely on put this down to his inexperience and unfamiliarity with these kinds of business matters. I tried that explanation on for size. I patiently, repeatedly, attempted to educate him... explaining pros and cons... how things work... playing tutor again. NOPE. It didn't get through. At the end of all that effort -- there is only his idea of how it works, what should happen, how it should happen... and everything else is suspect, wrong, and a threat. He very conveniently forgets his own agreements, decisions, etc -- in favor of that original mindset that belongs only to him.
He insists on seeing the world through his N-colored glasses -- even when I can get him to agree to move forward on certain decisions -- he remains in denial. Just like Nmom. They both seem to be stuck on the child side of the child-parent interaction -- and they scapegoat those who step up to the parent position. It's a no-win game, you know?
Back to family dynamics: in some ways I can see how this is his form of resistance - his defense mechanism against the projective identification schema. I know that just beneath all this difficult personality he is an emotional mess. Because he's able to deny it so well - and distract himself with workaholic busy, busy - it's just been piling up... and up... and up. I've tried to get him to shift out of this. But here's the thing: I'm pretty sure my mom is going to outlive him... and she'll blame him for dying on her. I have a lot of pity for the 54-yr-old kid... but he won't let me or anyone else help him. And I can't let myself be connected, even through morbid, pseudo-scientific fascination... because it hurts me, it "hooks" me into the games, and gives me nightmares. And no, my mom will never come live with me. That would be suicide for me.
I'm sorry: I'm doing what Hops calls "voice-hogging" and hijacking your thread by way of an "example". I didn't really know this was bugging me, under the surface. I don't let myself think about it that much anymore. There's just so much more stuff to think about, do and be involved in -- that's way more fun and interesting. Stuff like LIFE. The more I give myself permission to explore that -- at a real level, not just seeking that "being seen" and "belonging" -- the healthier I get. True: this other dark side doesn't completely go away... especially because of the business and the fact that I literally can't go NC, legally... but I no longer have to let it dominate my life either.
It's lot like cleaning toilets, though. LOL!!!!
-
((((Bones))))
It really hurt to know that the ONLY time the NFOO "condescends" to speak to me is ONLY WHEN THEY WANT SOMETHING or to USE me as an OBJECT! Now that they know that I'm not afraid to say "NO" to their demands, I don't expect to hear from NFOO anymore.
This is so painful and infuriating. You did an amazing job being frank, and enforcing your boundaries. You're right. We have no obligation to explain the personal reasons behind these boundaries to people who will not hear our explanations, respect our feelings and even consider for a second that they might not be anything other than 100% entitled and right.
I guess I'd forgotten the way Ns turn everyone else around them into N-bots--that FOOs literally adopts an N's heinous behaviors and attitudes. Ns infect people. And sis is infected.
This stuff has been a wake up call like a cold bucket of water in the face. Sis keeps pushing via email. Telling me she's leaving for LA in 30 days and can I set up this meeting for her before she goes? And I just keep defending the boundary, saying sorry, I'm happy to forward this woman the work once you have a completed body of work. But don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting (based on nothing, just some vague idea you've barely scribbled down). It seriously feels like she just wants me to ring this woman (who I barely know) up and ask her to take my sister on as a client (just because my sis is inherently wonderful). AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.
You are very right about this family, here. I'm seriously so grateful to be able to speak honestly about this to you all... And feel there are people in the world who hear me and relate.
Kay x
Thanks, ((((((((((((((((((Kay))))))))))))))))))))
N's are AGGRAVATING!!!!!!!
Bones
-
((((Finding Peace))))
I'm so sorry I'm a few days late on my reply. D.H. and I have been swamped with work and visitors. And I've just felt kind of sapped of everything.
I can really relate to what you wrote about the toll N-families take on you physically, spiritually and emotionally. I feel just wrecked. I'm raising two toddlers, in my third trimester of pregnancy and up against a deadline for this work project that forces me to draw on a lot of personal/childhood/NM-related stuff anyway. For one of the fist times ever, I feel like I just can't. Literally, I can't handle fresh FOO dysfunction on top of everything else. It will break me. And, for the sake of my husband and kids, I can't be a broken woman right now.
I've spent the past week thinking about it, expecting to be swallowed by the horrible guilt I always feel when I think about estranging myself from the rest of the family. Only I really haven't felt it. I still really don't want to see or speak to NM or FOO for a while. I feel like they're not entitled to me or the family D.H. and I are building. Just because NM pushed me into the world, doesn't mean she has the right to manipulate, use and terrorize me for as long as I live (or goad the rest of the family to do it for her). It's toxic and dangerous. It will always be toxic and dangerous. And I have enough work to do--healing past wounds--without NM and the like opening fresh ones.
They have never been a family in any real sense of the word. It's always just been an act, a shared psychosis, a charade. And maybe I've been afraid of giving up the charade. There's that old voice in my head--the one NM put there--that says what will people think? What will people think when they find out I
divorced myself from my family? To most everyone, I still try to hide the dysfunction, downplay the damage. Still protecting FOO and NM instead of myself, my D.H. and my kids.
My family used me until I felt so dried up there was nothing left for me. Not anymore - I've changed my focus from them to my current family (H and kids).
What you wrote is really inspiring to me. As is your strength, bravery and honesty.
How did you do it? Step away, I mean? What did you say to them? Did they fight you on it?
I've been scared to tell anyone about this...I fear it sounds really paranoid...But sometimes, I get really fearful that NM is going to find some way to hurt me or my family if I tell her to F off. I suppose I would just have to deal with and document it. I have visions of her kidnapping my kids (the way she used to threaten to do to my niece during my sister's custody battles), or breaking into our house, or committing identity fraud with my SS# and destroying our credit (she used to steal money from my bank account). Sometimes I toss and turn at night, feeling unsafe because I haven't returned one of her texts or because I've told her she can't come visit. I worry that she doesn't have any of the brain functioning that stops people from thinking violet, destructive things or carrying them out. And she's decided in recent years that I'm Enemy No. 1.
-
((((((P.R.))))))
You're not hijacking at all! I feel so relieved and connected when other people share similar stories and concerns. I find it really difficult to find a safe space to talk about these things. The world at large is so full of mothers-are-the-family-glue and blood-is-thicker-than-water cliches. I realized a few years ago that none of my friends had any basis of comparison where their own FOOs were concerned.
I'm astonished by your strength and compassion in the face of N insanity. For a long time, work was my only refuge from FOO nastiness...I can't imagine how challenging it must be to have your business tied up with them.
What a wonderful relief to have your audit dealt with and finished! Stressful doesn't even begin to describe. The fact that your brother has managed to heap even more stress and negative emotion on top of it... that makes my fists curl just thinking about it.
He couldn't understand that this is the "luck of the draw"; his expectation is that our "people" should've been omniscient and omnipotent and prevented this from happening in the first place. He doesn't accept that we were just unlucky in that we drew this level of scrutiny. That idea can't exist in his understanding
Damn N-FOOs. Everything is always a personal affront to them. Probably because they can never be wrong. And rather than expend the 30 seconds of personal energy and shame it takes to admit that they were wrong (or even just admit to being in the wrong place at the wrong time...luck of the draw), they'd rather devote 30 days to huffing and puffing, and pounding their chests, blaming anyone or thing they can.
Loosely reminds me of my parent's german shepherd....They were just supposed to be watching it for my brother in law while he was deployed, but when he returned from Iraq they refused to give the dog back (claimed it was theirs since they put so much $$ into vet bills). Well this dog is HUGE and not trained. At all. Doggie has wracked up complaints all around town. For biting joggers, for stealing and chewing other people's things out of their open garages, for charging onto other people's lawns and barking at their fenced-in-dogs for an hour at a time. My FOO refuses to train the dog, leash him or accept that they've played any part in the drama. Basically, they've managed to convince themselves that all of their neighbors and the town itself are just over-reactive a-holes. They've actually gone on to provoke and shout at people in their neighborhoods. They'd rather be bullies than be wrong. (How's this for crazy? My parents' next door neighbor thinks they poisoned his dog, who died, as a result of the dispute. And I don't entirely put it past them.).
He insists on seeing the world through his N-colored glasses -- even when I can get him to agree to move forward on certain decisions -- he remains in denial. Just like Nmom. They both seem to be stuck on the child side of the child-parent interaction -- and they scapegoat those who step up to the parent position.
Wow, this is an amazing insight. It's so unfair for you to have to take on the parent role, and then to have to feel punished for it.
I relate hugely, and have never before had the words to articulate it. It's always bothered me the way everyone in my FOO acts like a six-year-old, but attacks me for trying to be an adult. Other times, I've felt like they're all actors reading from the same script (god help you if you step on NM's lines or want to be spontaneous or authentic). And then, there are times, when they all seem like sleepwalkers. A sleepwalker isn't aware of you, and mid-dream, they don't want you to pull them out of harm's way; in fact, if you try to wake them, they're apt to turn violent.
In the world outside FOO, I'm pathologically passive too. But, the funny thing is, my dad and sister are SOOO passive with NM that I look defiant by comparison. I'm so tired of trying to wake or protect my family, or alert them to my existence. It just gets me scapegoated in exactly the way you described. But--and this is new--I'm not will to play along with them anymore. Or compromise my reality to their collective dream. I really think I've had enough.
Anyway, now I've voice-hogged and highjacked your concerns about your brother! I really just wanted to say I'm so sorry for everything you're going through with him. And to thank you for sharing it. It's a big help to know I'm not alone with this stuff.
lots of love, Kay
-
I've been scared to tell anyone about this...I fear it sounds really paranoid...But sometimes, I get really fearful that NM is going to find some way to hurt me or my family if I tell her to F off.
It's not paranoid. It's fear. A fear based on what you already have suffered -- but, this is a crucial difference -- suffered as a child. It's real as can be, too.
But, you're no longer a child - you're a mother with a good sized family! You can protect yourself with the same instincts, that you protect those kids with.
With those facts in hand, you can probably figure out the rest.
(((((Kay)))))
-
I feel like they're not entitled to me or the family D.H. and I are building. Just because NM pushed me into the world, doesn't mean she has the right to manipulate, use and terrorize me for as long as I live
YES.
Trust this.
Trust your smart realization.
This is the awakening that frees people. From stupid, toxic, meaningless...yes. It's all correct. Destructive ties are stupid, toxic and meaningless.
YOU are no longer blindly, passively accepting what the culture says.
That is just completely wonderful, imo. And you will not be alone. There are people who really have questioned deeply enough -- various things if not FOOs -- that you WILL find Real Ears, who can hear you. Real Friends, who can support your Real Life.
So much good luck to you, and peace ... you have earned it and you are right to protect it.
love,
Hops
-
Kay, I just wanted to echo what Hops said about trusting how you feel and also quickly to touch on what you describe as your paranioa about your mum trying to damage you if you pull away. As Phoenix quite rightly points out this is fear, not paranioa and my mum did launch multiple assaults when I pulled away. She caused a lot of problems and did a lot of damage but ......... as hard as it was at the time (and still is sometimes), I learnt a lot about myself as I fought her off. I became stronger and, ironically, she actually proved that what I was saying about her was true by the things she did. I came out of it the other side smelling of roses and she looked like something very unpleasant. Even if your mum does try to sabotage things for you, it's still worth it to be able to be you, unchecked, unfettered and untainted. I find all that 'feel the fear and do it anyway' stuff a bit cringe worthy but it is very true - it's your life, do what your heart tells you and know that you are strong enough to deal with what comes your way. And you're not alone xxx
-
Even if your mum does try to sabotage things for you, it's still worth it to be able to be you, unchecked, unfettered and untainted. I find all that 'feel the fear and do it anyway' stuff a bit cringe worthy but it is very true - it's your life, do what your heart tells you and know that you are strong enough to deal with what comes your way.
What Tupps said. True, true, true.
I'll just add, that there's no 100% guarantee that your fear about sabotage, mischief, or just plain evil unpleasantness will come true. Sometimes it does. Sometimes there's something closer to home, that distracts them... and you can simply walk on... until they realize you've been gone, for a while. And by that time - you've found that there is absolutely no way you'd ever betray your self again... for the sake of "the appearance of a relationship".
Because you KNOW that life isn't like that -- except within the sphere of an N... life outside that circle of hell --- is so wonderful you'll simply not choose ever to go back... even if you don't go completely NC. It's not a matter so much of physical proximity and actual contact that's the danger... NC, in that respect, is realizing that you are doing the driving from now on - not Nmom - not Sis... and they can yell "turn here" as much as they want -- you don't have to.
Ever again.
-
Hey KayZee,
Thanks for responding – no worries on any delay – I am the same way – so much in 3-d, it is hard to keep up with board life!
While I totally agree with hops, I would have one addition:
Instead of saying culture – I would put a spin on it as CULT/your. (Sounds the same; but totally different context, eh? At least in my family – it was a cult and it was my cult – though not by choice.)
And, in my experience, it is extremely difficult to walk away from the familial cult!
I hope this doesn’t offend – but, I stopped thinking of my parents as an M and F; to me they became the bio-donors or, my preference, the sperm donor and incubator – beyond that they were nothing but toxic.
I read your post, and strongly, so strongly, feel that I could respond line by line to what you wrote – it is so similar to what I went through….
While I want to respond to each line, I feel that more importantly, it is about the bottom line… may be that I am wrong – and apologize in advance..
Bottom line – to me…
You have an H, you have 2 toddlers, you are in your 3rd trimester of pregnancy, and you are working on a project that brings up bad memories (possibly PTSD?) all the while dealing with current (massive) dysfunction.
I can remember being there – there was so much negative energy, angst, guilt, worry (of course because of the way I was raised … I too was so worried about what others would think), along with the pain, rage….
All of that and I had 2 young children. At the time I didn’t realize, but I made an unconscious decision, that all of that negative energy that was impacting me impacted my real family – when I could take all that energy, and instead of being drawn into the quicksand of my family, I could take that energy, climb out of their quicksand that I was drowning in, and turn that energy toward my H and kids – and imagine them on a beautiful sandy beach having the time of their lives!
Instead of being drowned by their quicksand; I could build sandcastles, grab my kids by the arms and swing them in the surf. Cuddle with my H at a sunset.
Long story short – I had a lot of negative energy, I could choose to spend that energy in the toxic waste dump of my FOO, OR I could turn it from negative to positive and put that positive energy towards a beautiful time with my true family.
I chose my family – but it wasn’t easy.
You asked how I did it.
It took awhile.
At first it was e-mail only. At that time, I asked her for some space. She couldn’t do it, and yet I kept repeating, I need some space.
She backed off for a couple of weeks, and then started showing up at my house. I was lucky enough that when she showed up – for the most part (one time she actually walked into my house without my permission, and my girls ousted her) my H was there and very bluntly told her she was not welcome.
She tried to involve my in-laws (my family of choice) – but they were smart enough to be “Switzerland” to not get involved.
Every once in a while she tries to draw me back in, and I DO NOT RESPOND.
That is the key – DO NOT RESPOND.
Now, my incubator is so worried about what others’ will think – she has given up.
Your paranoia – is not paranoia – you know your incubator better than anyone – trust yourself!!!!!!
And she will do anything she can to draw you back into the quicksand.
Right here and now (and you may want a relationship later – but right now it is toxic). You need to take steps to protect you and yours.
I so wish I could wrap you in bubble wrap, where everything your family puts you through in the past or future …bounces off – that is how it should be – although it is not that easy is it?
I was pregnant 2x and with both pregnancies I had pre-eclampsia, I faced dying to bring my children into the word.
And you know what? At 13 and 9, while I almost died, they are the best little people that ever happened to me.
I learned, through them, that I would, never, ever, treat my child as I was treated – it was a huge wake up call. What my life should have been.
Now, towards paranoid tendencies – FULL STOP.
Trust yourself.
I wish Ta***(respecting her privacy) still posted here … her mother did exactly what you are afraid your incubator could possibly do. Her mother did.
If I were in your shoes – I would take that worry (energy) and find a way to make myself feel safe.
Invest in a state of the art security system so that she has no chance of kidnapping – in this day and age, it is smart to do this anyway. There are a lot of sickos out there – least of all your parents – state of the art security system will protect you from the sickos and your bio-donors.
I have a bank alert on my credit scores (it doesn’t cost a lot with most banks – and mine offers it for free); enlist this, and you will know as soon as she tries to use your SSI to create a card for her. The bank will alert you via e-mail and you can immediate dispute.
Given your fear (which you may feel is paranoia but I feel is grounded in reality)- I would request a restraining order – almost had to do this with my mom – but, when I threatened her with this she backed off (she didn’t want a paper trail that made her look like the bad guy … :rolling eyes:, but counted on it.)
In order to walk away from my mother, I had to understand her triggers, and use those against her. Sounds awful, but ultimately it worked. She has finally left me alone.
Love to you KZ – you deserve it. ((((((KayZee)))))))
Peace
-
Hi Kay,
I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, but I'll echo what many others have said in "I relate." I've also had to make hard decisions regarding my own sister and accepting the limitations of what kind of relationship I can have with her. In my family, I'm the scapegoat, my brother the GC, with my sister being stuck in the middle without a "role." She's lost, and has allowed herself to be completely manipulated my NM. I sense that she's a very unhappy person, and doesn't want to be NM's puppet, but she seems lost without NM to tell her how to run her life, so she continues to go along with it. There have been times when the life came back into her eyes, and she would actually stand up for herself, but just when I thought there was hope, she would spin right around and run to NM's defense again.
Like you, my sister would also ignore emails and phone calls from me unless she needed something (or NM needed something and was using her as her mouthpiece). One time when I tried to contact her to no avail, she actually sent an email telling me, "Mom says I'm not allowed to speak to you." (This coming from a woman in her 40s). Still, I always held onto hope that she would one day wake up and that we could have a normal relationship. I was wrong. A few years ago she actually replied to one of my emails, so I took the opportunity to tell her how I felt about everything. BIG mistake. I opened up to her and shared my true feelings, and she ran straight to NM with it and they sat around gossiping about it. She replied to me, but I quickly realized that her emails were being dictated by NM. It was obvious by the use of NM's signature vocabulary words and phrases that S was being told what to say. At that point I realized that she was a lost cause, and that there would never be any relationship beyond yearly Christmas cards.
I agree with the others that you absolutely did the right thing in this case. Don't put your own career at risk to help someone who is only taking advantage. I used to work in the entertainment industry, including several years working for talent agencies, and I've been burned more than once by doing a favor for a friend, passing along a head shot, only to have that person wash their hands of me when they didn't get signed and become an overnight sensation. I still have people who ask me to call in favors to people I know in the business, and I won't do it. It's rarely appreciated when it's a friend, but when it's family, and that family member is an N, OMG. No, their brains don't function on the same level as ours. They don't see that kind of offer as the very generous favor that it is. To them, it's expected, not just once, but whenever they ask for it. They are entitled to it, you owe it to them, period. And no matter how hard you to try to explain your side of it, or how you put your career and reputation at risk for them, they won't hear it because they they don't care. As scapegoat children we are expected to give and give and give and receive nothing in return, not even the words "thank you." They don't comprehend on any level that they're acting out of order. We're here to serve them. Period.
-
Hi Kay
Don't worry about what or how to.....just do. Take yourself out of the equation. Narcissist will never stop (Bad mouthing) you to people and the people to you.
That's for sure. Correction...maybe they will stop because you have made choice to cut them out of your life.
So let's say you did not make that choice. Here is most likely what is going to happen. Remember you are emotionally out of the equation. They are in full bashing mode either about you or another. The only way you respond is to hang up. To remove yourself. To remove them. To ignore.
Be consistant and they will be the One that will do..low contact.....no contact. Your not in the N equation. Your boring to them.
That is how it turned out with my friend.
Don't try to talk to them about their behavior. Your anything ..feelings...boundaries because they don't think normal. They are mentally ill.
You most certainly can cut them out of your life. You most certainly can cut yourself out of the way they live and want to interact with you by the above..ignore' hang up' kick out' remove yourself...and really really ..emotionally remove yourself.
There is no right or wrong decision. Just different ones. Whatever feels right for you and yours.
A narcissist one time said they have no friends. They want it that way. They have acquaintance's. That is about the only truth I have ever heard. If your not a friend' nor an acquaintance then they assume they own you (family).
Deb
Sometimes we can spend at the most two days of an enjoyable time. It's not often.