Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Twoapenny on March 16, 2013, 03:38:48 AM
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I'd really like to hear your opinions on this as I'm a little bit worried.
I've had a bit of a tumultuous but revealing few months. I've realised that I don't have many of the kind of friends that I would like (kind, thoughtful, helpful etc) and the ones I do have live many miles away. I think this is something to do with my problems with intimacy and my fear of getting hurt (by getting close to someone as it makes me vulnerable).
I've also realised that when it comes to friendships I've been quite passive in the past and tended to become friends with people who've wanted me rather than deciding whether I like someone and want to spend time with them (and this has tended to end up in friendships where I feel I'm discarded after I've served my purpose).
So ...................... I want to be brave and try to cultivate some new friendships. There are several people I know who I chit chat to at the various clubs and activities I go to with my son. I want to try and develop these chit chats into friendships, or at least spend more time with them.
However - is this a bit cynical? I'm worried there's something a bit narcissistic about it, that I've decided I want to know these people better and am sort of setting out to test them and see if they're 'worthy' of being friends with? I feel a bit like I'm selecting people and that feels a bit wrong? I'm also a bit worried I'm going at it for selfish reasons (I want more/better company than I have now, I'd like more friends that understand my son and our situation better, I'd like to be around people that don't arrange things we can't join in with because they don't understand our situation, I'd really like people that help me out sometimes instead of leaving me to struggle on my own). Is that going into friendships for the wrong reason?
I'm a bit concerned. Am I going about this the wrong way? I'd very much appreciate your thoughts. Thank you in advance.
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I'd really like to hear your opinions on this as I'm a little bit worried.
I've had a bit of a tumultuous but revealing few months. I've realised that I don't have many of the kind of friends that I would like (kind, thoughtful, helpful etc) and the ones I do have live many miles away. I think this is something to do with my problems with intimacy and my fear of getting hurt (by getting close to someone as it makes me vulnerable).
I've also realised that when it comes to friendships I've been quite passive in the past and tended to become friends with people who've wanted me rather than deciding whether I like someone and want to spend time with them (and this has tended to end up in friendships where I feel I'm discarded after I've served my purpose).
So ...................... I want to be brave and try to cultivate some new friendships. There are several people I know who I chit chat to at the various clubs and activities I go to with my son. I want to try and develop these chit chats into friendships, or at least spend more time with them.
However - is this a bit cynical? I'm worried there's something a bit narcissistic about it, that I've decided I want to know these people better and am sort of setting out to test them and see if they're 'worthy' of being friends with? I feel a bit like I'm selecting people and that feels a bit wrong? I'm also a bit worried I'm going at it for selfish reasons (I want more/better company than I have now, I'd like more friends that understand my son and our situation better, I'd like to be around people that don't arrange things we can't join in with because they don't understand our situation, I'd really like people that help me out sometimes instead of leaving me to struggle on my own). Is that going into friendships for the wrong reason?
I'm a bit concerned. Am I going about this the wrong way? I'd very much appreciate your thoughts. Thank you in advance.
(((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
From my perspective, there's nothing wrong with wanting to cultivate HEALTHIER friendships than what you and I have been dealing with in the past.
Bones
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Tupp:
My perspective:
You're not testing people, you're trying to make better choices going forward, and figure out how to put new systems in place for yourself.
You're keeping your past mistakes in mind so you can avoid them.
You're holding better expectations as yard sticks.
You're absolutely learning about yourself, how you've operated on auto pilot in the past, and figuring out how to operate differently for a better future.
What could be selfish about that?
It's likely overwhelming, and causes some short circuits...... fearfulness, anxiety, etc... which perhaps make old patterns pop up.... fear, anxiety, kwim?
I hope you're jounaling, and checking in with those thoughts. There are lessons,
so
many
lesssons.........
and it's hard to keep track if you don't note them, and touch them and keep rolling them up to the surface in your process, IME. Like a washing machine, just too many new revelations to
keep up with, note while figuring out how to change the old, IME.
You have a right to reciprocal relationships. You have a duty to choose relationships that go both ways. Frankly it makes me nervouse for you that you don't have some kind of
well written book on the process to refer to and go through steps...... something like that book ARE YOU TOO NICE, or something where they lay out excercises for you.
It's not selfish, Tupp. It's just difficult.
Lighter
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Tupp, I don't think there's anything wrong about being conscious about your intention...
really, it's the opposite. Relationships have a better chance of being mutually fulfilling,
or even getting off the ground, when people are thinking about who they (themselves)
are, and about what they need. Some matches work, and some just don't.
It does not make you manipulative, to think about people in light of how they might
be a healthy, or appropriate, or unstressful, part of your life. You are in fact being more
fair to others as well, when you are conscious of whether they can meet your basic
requirements for friendship as well as vice versa. If your vote isn't even in there, then
they are not allowed to build anything real either.
So yes, make your silent votes for yourself. You can still be present in the moment,
and be friendly and/or kind, to others you meet. But never pretend to yourself or them
as though YOU are not really there. You always, now, are going to have your own
vote. (They don't even have to know about this thinking...it belongs to YOU.)
It's even a little like A Fine Romance says, although scaled to friendship...beware fusion,
instant total intimacy, and feeling like you must offer yourself up as totally compliant, in
order to be loved. (Or in new friendships, simply liked or acknowledged.)
I think you just need to build confidence that you can continue to be your own loving
friend in life, just as you learned you had to battle for your boy...you deserve to make
discerning choices for yourself too. That will guide you as you learn to choose reciprocity.
Perhaps read that famous list of Boundaries again, I'd suggest...it's in the What Helps section.
love to you,
Hops
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Hops, Bonesie, Lighter, thank you for your replies, I am reading and re-reading as my head is spinning a bit at the minute and it's taking a while to layer things down and get my head around them.
On a positive, simple note I spoke to a couple of the mums at swimming last night and we are going to arrange an evening out - I've put it on my To Do list so I don't keep putting it off and finding excuses not to go.
What is coming up is suprising and troubling me. Because I have no family, I think I have convinced myself that I have a wide and ever reaching circle of friends that replace my family. I think the truth of the matter is I don't, I think I might even have substituted my very dysfunctional family for a less dysfunctional one through my friends. I have a lot of on-line 'friends', such as on this forum and of course that is wonderful and very helpful (particularly when you need to talk about things that other people don't understand) but I do feel that I have substituted that for real people. It's safer on-line without real contact occuring; I'd like to get a combination of both now!
The main things that have been bothering me are:
Realising the only people my son spends time with regularly are volunteers at the sports clubs he goes to. I don't know why I didn't see this before but it broke my heart when I realised - not one friend or family member bothers with him. He is the loveliest little lad and all the volunteers think he's brilliant and love being around him. How have I managed to surround myself with people who cannot find even two hours in a twelve month period to hang out with him or take him swimming?
Someone told me, during a row, that I'd end up bitter and alone. I'm afraid that I've pretty much fulfilled that prophecy for them, without really realising that I'm doing it. I am determined to change that now.
Feeling invisible? I feel that none of my friends has any understanding of my life. I am alone, with no family or partner. My son is disabled and taking care of him is roughly equivalent to having three full time jobs. We're on a low income and everything is a struggle financially - we manage but I have to be very good/careful with money and there isn't money to splash around. I have had health problems for about a year now, and I've been telling people since Christmas that I feel very ill and am waiting for more tests on my heart. But despite this none of my friends really ever seem to think about me, to ring for a chat or to just have any understanding that my life is tough. Since I've told people I've been ill not one person has offered to help or asked me if there's anything they can do. A couple of people have offered me money but I feel it is human contact that is lacking from my life. Knowing somebody cared enough to do something with my son would mean so much more to me than cash.
I'm angry with myself that I've let this situation develop and I've left my son as isolated as I was as a child. I feel I should have realised all of this sooner and sorted it out. I'm angry that I've swopped one set of dodgy characters for another and left myself out in the cold, as it were. I feel angry that there are people I've done loads for over the years who now I need help are too busy to even call me.
Sorry it's a bit disjointed, my head is a bit jumpy at the minute and I'm struggling a bit to get how I feel into words. But angry, sad and so very tired are top of the list, I think.
Thank you for reading xx
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Hi Two,
How an whom are the people that live around you? The best friendships I have are here right in my neighborhood. Most of the time we meet on days (on the decks or porch) and not planned. A phone call we are outside if your not busy. Sometimes just a step into out side. And in cold weather (we do meet somehow) even if 2 months have one by.
In reality I'm with my friends (that are like family) more then I'm with family....because they live right here. People are so busy working and then doing the things they have to do when they are off..it's hard to get together with family.
My cousin lives right across the street and I see her less then I see other's here because she works so long and so hard she is very short on time.
My kids best friends are from when they were little and they established them themselves. I don't even know some of their parents (with exceptions) of through sports.
And Us friend's all have Other friend's that we have met with something we have been interested in, such as, my sister/yoga friends, my friends training for *hospice* new friends there.....
And it just happen's.
Just find something that interest you local...art classes, yoga, anything, that you can attend. You will make friends.
You'll be surprised.
And the best ones might be right in your neighborhood.
Your sure would be sitting on our porches....being dialed on the phone....eating (we do a lot of eating) and your son would be like one of our own kids.
That's the people you need to find and the ones your around the most..........And you will.
Chin up kid. Better day's are coming!!
Love
Deb
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Ah Deb, thank you! My neighbours are pretty grim! The lady one side of me screams and swears at her kids all the time. The man the other side is nice enough to me but knocks his kids about. Two doors up are nice people but a bit too nice - they offer to help you out but then start telling you what to do and asking very personal questions so I keep them at arms length. It's quite a rough estate, a lot of drug and alcohol problems and lots of people that I don't really want to spend too much time with, to be honest (we are saving up to move!). But I hear what you are saying and yes, that's the sort of path I want to go down. My son is hopefully starting a youth club soon so I'm looking around for something I can do while he's off doing that. It's getting easier as he gets older! Thank you xx
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Tupp)))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Thank you Bonesie, your hugs make me smile :)
I'm rambling a bit as things are just occuring to me now and then. I've already mentioned that no-one spends time with my son. I home educate him because of his disability (it's much easier for him in a quiet, one to one environment) and I love it. He's doing brilliantly and really enjoys himself, I've learnt loads since I started doing it and I just love being with him. He's good company, very funny and still has that child's view of looking at things. I think I've relived my own (crappy) childhood through him and it's really helped. We're close and he's the only bit of my life that works - my personal relationships are not great with other people but with him I think I've got the balance right and he's turning into a really polite, well balanced young man - I just need to be able to say the same about myself (although if I start turning into a man that will be a whole other thread but you know what I mean).
Anyway - whenever I complain about being ill or tired the response I get from most people is that I should put him in school. They just don't seem to understand that apart from school not being the best option for me, I love teaching him at home and I'd hate to stop doing it. If he wanted to then of course I would but he loves it and I do ask him frequently if he wants to go to school and so far the answer has always been no. So I never really understand why people think me stopping doing the one thing in my life that I love would make my life better.
But having just got off the phone with a friend, who has again suggested I put him in school (in the past she's suggested I send him to a residential school) the penny dropped - none of my friends actually like spending time with their kids. I don't know why I haven't twigged this before, but it suddenly seemed really obvious. Which perhaps does make more sense that I am liking spending time with these mums at activity groups; they at least are interested enough in their kids to take them to clubs and stay and help out. So yes, I think I am starting to see where I've been going wrong, these are just people who are very different to me so can't understand why I like spending time with him. Sorry for rambling on, it just helps to get it down while I'm thinking of it, thank you for reading xx
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Hi ((((Tupp))))
Wish I could cheer you and meet that fine boy in person.
From my (stunned) perspective -- with a now-estranged D I loved being with more than anything, and adored throughout her childhood -- I have come to understand that SHE was my best friend. And it wasn't good for her. (I did not know I was harming her, with my over-doting. And now I do.) You have a very different situation with your boy because of his autism (my D has mild Asperger's and not-mild bipolar disorder), but I hear faint echoes of your close relationship with him taking the place of friendships with your peers.
It has probably been essential, so far. There've been a hundred reasons it has been RIGHT (and even, no choice about it) for you to be so cocooned with him. But I wonder if you might be sensing the inevitability of change. He will become an older boy, then a young man, then a middle aged man, etc...and living with you, and you orbiting around him, may not always be the right thing for you both.
I think of you and friendships as about you (and your boy) breaking out, slowly and gently, of your closed cocoon together. He will always love and need you, and vice versa. He needs others, to reach all the potential he can. You need others for the same reason, though your paths are different.
I love the idea that you are saving to move to a more peaceful place to live. I so hope you can pull it off. And your yearnings for him to find friends and meaning and purpose of his own touch my heart. You want it for him. And you deserve it for yourself, too.
I loathe the idea of you feeling bleak, bitter, and lonely. You've walked a really hard road, on your own, for a very long time. I hope you can find some 3-D situations where there will be positive connections you can build on, for both of you. But separately, if that is workable for you and him.
Miserable as it is to feel uncared-for, by the people you've been friendly with for a long while -- it's very common. Sometimes people are afraid of too much sorrow. They just don't know what to do with it, even if it an ideal world, they would. Other people's pain always bangs up against our own helplessness. That's why I have found the UU church (in my case) absolutely essential to my mental health. Knowing that there is always someone, in that community, makes a huge difference.
The thing is, I no longer expect social friends (people whose main focus in getting together is to just laugh and drink or "play" -- even though those are great things too) to be the core source of comfort and strength in my life. I have learned to "spread it around." There are Covenant Groups (I'm in 2) for serious, heartfelt sharing of anything, no matter how painful, with no fear of rejection. There are playful "buddies" for showers and receptions and activities that are "lighter." There are a couple very close friends I could call any time, but I talk to them about once a week. There are pastoral counselors, one can call when one feels that without a caring ear one will break in two. There is a minister (two). There are adult faith classes that range all over the place, and friendships often come out of those. There are service auctions and potluck suppers just for gathering at tables and feeling a sense of "village." There are a zillion service oriented things to do (once a year or once a wee--you pick what you can and want to do)...helping the homeless, serving at a soup kitchen, working with kids, gathering for social justice causes (environment, peace, etc.).
This way, intentionally bonding with that larger community and identifying myself as belonging, a welcome part of it (I am) -- my situation hasn't overwhelmed any one friend, and in recent years, I've benefitted so much from the feeling of being an embraced member of a whole big group. I don't think I could ever have created that on my own. So that's why, in addition to my agnostic spirituality, I needed to turn to an organized, institutional community. Within it, in various overlapping circles, I did find a PHamily that cares.
Friends tried. Some could hold on during my worst times. Some faded away. But I still have some old friends, and continue to make new ones. And years back, I felt just as lost and isolated and lonely and unloved as you do right now.
It really can change. I hope you can find a community to belong to. They are around you. None of them perfect fits but all of them, full of people, enough of whom can care. Live can be worth living and even have its joys.
Love and comfort,
Hops
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Hiya Hopsie, and thank you :)
I do see what you're saying. It's not so much that I see my boy as my best friend, just that he's simply needed 100 + hours a week of care throughout his life, most of which I've had to do on my own. I think what I don't understand is why none of my friends want to spend time with him as he is genuinely lovely - some disabled children have such complex needs that I can understand people feeling that they aren't up to the job as it were but he really isn't like that which is why I feel so bad that no-one seems to bother with him. You are absolutely right that as he's getting older and becoming more independent that I am able to lift my head above the parapet and see what's going on in my world and I'm not too keen on what I'm seeing at the moment! I'm so sorry for the situation with your D and am still hoping that she will see the light one day and you will be able to work something out (((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hopsie)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
With regard to having different friends for different things, I think the problem from my perspective is that for many of the people I know I am simply the one they ring when they need help and support and they turn to others when they want to have a good time! There is a real lack of good times in my life, for me alone, as a grown up, a woman, a person other than 'Mum'. I think I need that balance within the same people - people I can have fun with, talk to, lean on from time to time and provide support for every now and again - none of it perfectly and I'm sure there would be times when a bit of grumbling and moaning would occur, but at the minute I feel a bit more like service provider rather than a friend? I don't know if that makes sense, it's a bit early here :?
I am so glad that you have found that nice group of people to feel safe and secure within - safe to be yourself, I suppose? I do hear you about not overwhelming one friend, I have one friend who ticks all of those boxes but I don't like to just rely on here for everything, it feels unfair on both of us. There are lots of lovely people in the world, I think I just need to hunt them out now :) Thank you again, lots of love xxx
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Thank you Bonesie, your hugs make me smile :)
I'm rambling a bit as things are just occuring to me now and then. I've already mentioned that no-one spends time with my son. I home educate him because of his disability (it's much easier for him in a quiet, one to one environment) and I love it. He's doing brilliantly and really enjoys himself, I've learnt loads since I started doing it and I just love being with him. He's good company, very funny and still has that child's view of looking at things. I think I've relived my own (crappy) childhood through him and it's really helped. We're close and he's the only bit of my life that works - my personal relationships are not great with other people but with him I think I've got the balance right and he's turning into a really polite, well balanced young man - I just need to be able to say the same about myself (although if I start turning into a man that will be a whole other thread but you know what I mean).
Anyway - whenever I complain about being ill or tired the response I get from most people is that I should put him in school. They just don't seem to understand that apart from school not being the best option for me, I love teaching him at home and I'd hate to stop doing it. If he wanted to then of course I would but he loves it and I do ask him frequently if he wants to go to school and so far the answer has always been no. So I never really understand why people think me stopping doing the one thing in my life that I love would make my life better.
But having just got off the phone with a friend, who has again suggested I put him in school (in the past she's suggested I send him to a residential school) the penny dropped - none of my friends actually like spending time with their kids. I don't know why I haven't twigged this before, but it suddenly seemed really obvious. Which perhaps does make more sense that I am liking spending time with these mums at activity groups; they at least are interested enough in their kids to take them to clubs and stay and help out. So yes, I think I am starting to see where I've been going wrong, these are just people who are very different to me so can't understand why I like spending time with him. Sorry for rambling on, it just helps to get it down while I'm thinking of it, thank you for reading xx
You're welcome, ((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))
When I read about how these other mothers don't like to spend any time with their children, it made me wonder: WHY did they become mothers in the first place? Did they become mothers simply to LOOK GOOD to others while expecting the children to meet THEIR needs instead of the other way around?
I might be over-analyzing them.
Bones
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There is a real lack of good times in my life, for me alone, as a grown up, a woman, a person other than 'Mum'
I believe you. That makes me sad. You have been SO loving and giving, and such a heroic mother, that I'll bet many in your world think of you as just that -- "loving, giving, Mum" -- and so they call YOU when they need the same. It's probably not intentional, people just seek to meet their needs and there you go. But I can imagine how frustrating it is, to give until you're feeling used, and then wonder why none of them are imaginative enough to suss out that you are beginning to need something more.
Hmm. Now that I think about it a little more, I wonder if all this frustration isn't actually a good sign, in your life? You used to be so utterly other-focused ALL the time, and now you're getting a little....drumroll...selfish! In the GOOD way.
You have a full, three-dimensional self who's been clamped down on by the extraordinary caregiving and parenting load you've been staggering under. Willingly and lovingly, but -- with almost no room for a full self-expressing life.
Now that your son's boyhood has lost its endlessness, as it always is the way...change is coming.
I think feeling it in frustration with the less-than-full-dimensional friendships now, makes perfect sense.
I need that balance within the same people - people I can have fun with, talk to, lean on from time to time and provide support for every now and again
I'm sorry you haven't got the 3-D friendship function going right now. They're creatures of habit, and you probably helped (not intentionally) set things up this way (teaching them to treat you as a service provider). I so hope either a couple of your current friends will be adaptable to a fuller, more reciprocal role...or if there's no sign of it, that you won't be too hurt for too long, but get out (hard as it is to "get out" with your boy needing you there all day and night) and do what you can, to expose yourself to the possibility of new friends.
PS--in my own community, we don't just do "good works" or intense heart-to-hearts. We get ridiculous and have "game night" and that sort of thing. I don't do all of it, I have a small regular circle and they tend to be the sort who welcome seriousness. But sometimes we do get absurd.
Gotta run, love to you lovely one,
Hops
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Hi Hopsie, thank you again, you are so insightful :)
I have been trying to look at my own behaviour in light of all this. I find it very difficult to look at myself in this way. After the years of "you're terrible, everything you do is terrible" and then the counsellng years of "I'm a wonderful human being with rights and needs" I find it hard to accept/admit that there are aspects of my personality that I find quite unpleasant (deep breath here!).
I've been reading the bits about boundaries that you mentioned. I'm ashamed to say I think there is something of the martyr about me, something that likes/craves the whole 'look at me, look at how much I sacrifice and do on my own'. I think I need to spend some time at that and weed out what's necessary and what I need to get rid of now.
I do find it very difficult to ask for help, particularly if the answer is no as that triggers so many things in me. So that's something else I need to look at and work on a little.
I also recognise signs of passive aggression in myself - not being vocal about what I need and then resenting that. There are also people that I grumble about not seeing but if I'm honest I don't really want to see them, again I think there is something of the victim 'look they've abandoned me again' thing about me that I need to address.
IT IS OKAY FOR ME NOT TO LIKE PEOPLE AND OK FOR THEM NOT TO LIKE ME. Eek! That sits a little heavily on my chest. Something else to work on, I suppose. I feel sometimes like I have to have a reason not to hang out with someone, rather than just being able to say to myself "I just don't feel like it at the moment".
Lots revolving in my head. On a positive note, it's looking like a night out with a couple of the other mums is on the cards - nothing big, just a bit of chit chat and hopefully a laugh. I need to focus on getting some fun back in my life, I think. Things have been too gloomy for too long.
Thank you, everyone, for all your thoughts and input into this, I really appreciate you taking the time to do that and for listening to me waffle on. Thank you all so much.
Love Tup xx
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Oh good for you.
There is no way your life won't change for the better ...
It is so so so rare for people to own those sticky things, like martyrdom, or P-A stuff...and see those uckier sides of themselves clearly.
But the people who do acknowledge, accept, and forgive their darker sides, are the only ones who can change or manage them...and move ahead.
Now I'm excited for you.
love
Hops
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Thank you Bonesie, your hugs make me smile :)
I'm rambling a bit as things are just occuring to me now and then. I've already mentioned that no-one spends time with my son. I home educate him because of his disability (it's much easier for him in a quiet, one to one environment) and I love it. He's doing brilliantly and really enjoys himself, I've learnt loads since I started doing it and I just love being with him. He's good company, very funny and still has that child's view of looking at things. I think I've relived my own (crappy) childhood through him and it's really helped. We're close and he's the only bit of my life that works - my personal relationships are not great with other people but with him I think I've got the balance right and he's turning into a really polite, well balanced young man - I just need to be able to say the same about myself (although if I start turning into a man that will be a whole other thread but you know what I mean).
Anyway - whenever I complain about being ill or tired the response I get from most people is that I should put him in school. They just don't seem to understand that apart from school not being the best option for me, I love teaching him at home and I'd hate to stop doing it. If he wanted to then of course I would but he loves it and I do ask him frequently if he wants to go to school and so far the answer has always been no. So I never really understand why people think me stopping doing the one thing in my life that I love would make my life better.
But having just got off the phone with a friend, who has again suggested I put him in school (in the past she's suggested I send him to a residential school) the penny dropped - none of my friends actually like spending time with their kids. I don't know why I haven't twigged this before, but it suddenly seemed really obvious. Which perhaps does make more sense that I am liking spending time with these mums at activity groups; they at least are interested enough in their kids to take them to clubs and stay and help out. So yes, I think I am starting to see where I've been going wrong, these are just people who are very different to me so can't understand why I like spending time with him. Sorry for rambling on, it just helps to get it down while I'm thinking of it, thank you for reading xx
You're welcome, ((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))
When I read about how these other mothers don't like to spend any time with their children, it made me wonder: WHY did they become mothers in the first place? Did they become mothers simply to LOOK GOOD to others while expecting the children to meet THEIR needs instead of the other way around?
I might be over-analyzing them.
Bones
Yeah Bonesie I know, it's funny, isn't it? A friend of mine decided a long time ago never to have children, she says she's too selfish and likes doing her own thing too much. I thought that was so brave of her, to just be honest about herself and not be pulled into the whole thing about children being 'normal' for everyone. Someone else I know has two kids she does nothing but moan about, since they were babies. Why bother? I can understand one; you don't know what you're getting yourself into so having one and realising you don't like it I can see, but why then have another? Seems crazy to me. Poor kids.
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Thank you Bonesie, your hugs make me smile :)
I'm rambling a bit as things are just occuring to me now and then. I've already mentioned that no-one spends time with my son. I home educate him because of his disability (it's much easier for him in a quiet, one to one environment) and I love it. He's doing brilliantly and really enjoys himself, I've learnt loads since I started doing it and I just love being with him. He's good company, very funny and still has that child's view of looking at things. I think I've relived my own (crappy) childhood through him and it's really helped. We're close and he's the only bit of my life that works - my personal relationships are not great with other people but with him I think I've got the balance right and he's turning into a really polite, well balanced young man - I just need to be able to say the same about myself (although if I start turning into a man that will be a whole other thread but you know what I mean).
Anyway - whenever I complain about being ill or tired the response I get from most people is that I should put him in school. They just don't seem to understand that apart from school not being the best option for me, I love teaching him at home and I'd hate to stop doing it. If he wanted to then of course I would but he loves it and I do ask him frequently if he wants to go to school and so far the answer has always been no. So I never really understand why people think me stopping doing the one thing in my life that I love would make my life better.
But having just got off the phone with a friend, who has again suggested I put him in school (in the past she's suggested I send him to a residential school) the penny dropped - none of my friends actually like spending time with their kids. I don't know why I haven't twigged this before, but it suddenly seemed really obvious. Which perhaps does make more sense that I am liking spending time with these mums at activity groups; they at least are interested enough in their kids to take them to clubs and stay and help out. So yes, I think I am starting to see where I've been going wrong, these are just people who are very different to me so can't understand why I like spending time with him. Sorry for rambling on, it just helps to get it down while I'm thinking of it, thank you for reading xx
You're welcome, ((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))
When I read about how these other mothers don't like to spend any time with their children, it made me wonder: WHY did they become mothers in the first place? Did they become mothers simply to LOOK GOOD to others while expecting the children to meet THEIR needs instead of the other way around?
I might be over-analyzing them.
Bones
Yeah Bonesie I know, it's funny, isn't it? A friend of mine decided a long time ago never to have children, she says she's too selfish and likes doing her own thing too much. I thought that was so brave of her, to just be honest about herself and not be pulled into the whole thing about children being 'normal' for everyone. Someone else I know has two kids she does nothing but moan about, since they were babies. Why bother? I can understand one; you don't know what you're getting yourself into so having one and realising you don't like it I can see, but why then have another? Seems crazy to me. Poor kids.
Poor kids is right! We both know there are some crazy people who should NEVER be parents because of they way they use and abuse people!
Bones
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Agree, Bonesie!
I thought I'd update this as there are a couple of people I have been trying to get to know better and it seems to be heading in the right direction. I'm also trying to go into things with an open mind and just 'get to know' people rather than trying to force friendships. I have been thinking about Hopsie's "Oh" advice on the other thread and I'm trying to take that approach and just see how things go and let them be what they will be.
Something else I've been thinking about - and it's very jumbled in my head so no idea how it's going to come across here - is how I think I've been putting my own dysfunctional blueprint of what a relationship constitutes onto other people in my life. To try and give one example:
I've mentioned a friend who took four months to return my call. I felt very hurt by this but didn't feel able to say anything. I felt very resentful, felt that our friendship didn't mean anything (or at least didn't mean anything to her) and that no-one cared, no-one loved me, I'm so grim that no-one wants to spend time with me.
So - I know my mum's friendships are very black and white, very all or nothing. I know that in order to be part of my mums inner circle you have to conform to a particular set of rules about what she considers okay. There is no space for okay some of the time but a bit crap every now and then. She can and does drop people (including her own children) at the drop of a hat. She also blows friendships/relationships into much more than they are (my stepdad for example, love of her life whose love for her was so strong that they were forced to have an affair because they couldn't withstand the strength of the love, that sort of thing, complete nonsense, he screwed anything that moved and she was the only one daft enough to put up with it, his other wives threw him out. More disgustingly, my T once suggested that a certain kind of man is more interested in the kids than the mum and that's a thought that I'd like to be able to say doesn't apply to him but can't). She would always give anecdotes that showed how much people liked her, great stories about their times together, give big parties that everyone came to, yet when I 'came out' and started telling people that we no longer talk I was amazed at the number of people who told me they'd never liked her and were simply sociable in order to be polite.
Anyway, I can see now how I'm applying elements of all of this to my own relationships and friendships. To use the four month delay friend example, if I'm honest about our contact over the years it has always been of a getting together for coffee nature. We are not close friends, we haven't shared intimate secrets or spend huge amounts of time together, we don't know each other terribly well even though we've known each other for a long time. I am realising that this is okay :) I can have coffee buddies that are just that - a couple of hours every now and again for a chat and a catch up - it doesn't need to be any more than that. I think she sees this in our friendship and I haven't.
I've also realised that my response to anyone's demand on my time is always to jump. I put returning phone calls, emails, letters, visits, lunches etc ahead of everything else I need to do. As a result of that I get more stressed (because stuff I need doesn't get done) I feel more resentful (because I'm putting other people's needs before my own) and I don't spend time with people I'd really like to because I am reactive more than I am proactive. So I am realising that it is okay to be too busy for something and someone and I'm realising it is okay to spend time with people I really like rather than people I feel obliged to.
I think the other thing I need to work on is my response to rejection - seeing an unreturned call or letter as a massive slap in the face and reiteration of 'you're so bad your own family don't want you' and being more realiistic about other people's time and lifestyles (as being a factor in whether or not they ring) whilst of course keeping an eye out for those people who do only ring when they want something - more practise needed at saying no!
Anyway that's all kind of jumbling around in my head at the moment, I think things are clearing slowly and I'm moving in the right direction.
Thank you everyone as always for your thoughts and insights and just giving me the space to get all of this out of my head and down on paper (screen!). Thank you xx
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I'm realising it is okay to spend time with people I really like rather than people I feel obliged to.
Boy, this brings back what was a long conversation I had, with my friend Gaining Strength. She'd picked up and had a giant AHA about how "obligation" was working in her relationships... and I was having trouble "seeing" it, wrapping my head around it. I still think it was a huge breakthrough for her...
and I'm still working on the concept and what it means in my life. I think that relates to our different (sometimes) coping strategies... in that I'm "runner" and a "hider" for the most part... never understanding that I really did have needs, that needs are OK (everyone's got 'em), and that those "obligations" aren't millstones around a person's neck - to be resented; they're part of the trust relationship... and commitment to the relationship and the "other person".
I guess that's why I've believed so strongly in the reality of an "unconditional" love force... and a lot of times I miss, how that exists even within things like limits, "acceptable social behavior", etc. It's always there... "informing" the functional application and use of those kinds of interpersonal "rules"... and even when it's OK to break the rules...
It's one of those things that kids learn by osmosis - seeing the examples, both in theory and applied... and if it doesn't exist in your world, you're almost always half a step out of sync. (Just reflecting in general here -- thinking of the boys.)
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(((Tupp)))
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Agree, Bonesie!
I thought I'd update this as there are a couple of people I have been trying to get to know better and it seems to be heading in the right direction. I'm also trying to go into things with an open mind and just 'get to know' people rather than trying to force friendships. I have been thinking about Hopsie's "Oh" advice on the other thread and I'm trying to take that approach and just see how things go and let them be what they will be.
Something else I've been thinking about - and it's very jumbled in my head so no idea how it's going to come across here - is how I think I've been putting my own dysfunctional blueprint of what a relationship constitutes onto other people in my life. To try and give one example:
I've mentioned a friend who took four months to return my call. I felt very hurt by this but didn't feel able to say anything. I felt very resentful, felt that our friendship didn't mean anything (or at least didn't mean anything to her) and that no-one cared, no-one loved me, I'm so grim that no-one wants to spend time with me.
So - I know my mum's friendships are very black and white, very all or nothing. I know that in order to be part of my mums inner circle you have to conform to a particular set of rules about what she considers okay. There is no space for okay some of the time but a bit crap every now and then. She can and does drop people (including her own children) at the drop of a hat. She also blows friendships/relationships into much more than they are (my stepdad for example, love of her life whose love for her was so strong that they were forced to have an affair because they couldn't withstand the strength of the love, that sort of thing, complete nonsense, he screwed anything that moved and she was the only one daft enough to put up with it, his other wives threw him out. More disgustingly, my T once suggested that a certain kind of man is more interested in the kids than the mum and that's a thought that I'd like to be able to say doesn't apply to him but can't). She would always give anecdotes that showed how much people liked her, great stories about their times together, give big parties that everyone came to, yet when I 'came out' and started telling people that we no longer talk I was amazed at the number of people who told me they'd never liked her and were simply sociable in order to be polite.
Anyway, I can see now how I'm applying elements of all of this to my own relationships and friendships. To use the four month delay friend example, if I'm honest about our contact over the years it has always been of a getting together for coffee nature. We are not close friends, we haven't shared intimate secrets or spend huge amounts of time together, we don't know each other terribly well even though we've known each other for a long time. I am realising that this is okay :) I can have coffee buddies that are just that - a couple of hours every now and again for a chat and a catch up - it doesn't need to be any more than that. I think she sees this in our friendship and I haven't.
I've also realised that my response to anyone's demand on my time is always to jump. I put returning phone calls, emails, letters, visits, lunches etc ahead of everything else I need to do. As a result of that I get more stressed (because stuff I need doesn't get done) I feel more resentful (because I'm putting other people's needs before my own) and I don't spend time with people I'd really like to because I am reactive more than I am proactive. So I am realising that it is okay to be too busy for something and someone and I'm realising it is okay to spend time with people I really like rather than people I feel obliged to.
I think the other thing I need to work on is my response to rejection - seeing an unreturned call or letter as a massive slap in the face and reiteration of 'you're so bad your own family don't want you' and being more realiistic about other people's time and lifestyles (as being a factor in whether or not they ring) whilst of course keeping an eye out for those people who do only ring when they want something - more practise needed at saying no!
Anyway that's all kind of jumbling around in my head at the moment, I think things are clearing slowly and I'm moving in the right direction.
Thank you everyone as always for your thoughts and insights and just giving me the space to get all of this out of my head and down on paper (screen!). Thank you xx
((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I'm having difficulty finding words to express right now. Many thoughts jumbling around in my own head at the moment. I'll probably be posting a rant in the other thread as soon as I can work through what I'm thinking.
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Thank you everyone, Bonesie I hope that guy drops out of your life soon! He seems to be a real a**e. Sorry half of that post was in bold, I only meant to do the one sentence and obviously didn't switch it off again.
I've started re-reading Susan Peabody's Addicted to Love. I read it before (I think someone on here recommended it) and it definitely applied to my male/female relationships. There was a little quiz at the end to see how ready you were for a relationship and when I took it it basically said don't even think about it! That was a while ago now, I took the test again and things have improved :)
I think I apply those things to all of my relationships, though. I can see that my fear of abandonment is strong (she talks about projecting it on to others, so when someone doesn't respond to your call it blows up into this huge thing instead of being kept in perspective - that's me to a T). She talks about fantasising in order to escape from reality - I do that a lot, more than is healthy (she talks about constructive steps to change reality instead of thinking about it) and she also mentions the matryr complex, which I think I do have with my son.
It's difficult with him. On the one hand he genuinely does need someone with him 24 hours a day. He does need a lot of down time (ie at home, quiet activities, not out and about having fun). He does have a lot of trouble sleeping and all sorts of problems with food, noise, lighting, other people etc. He is very sensitive and gets upset/worried about things (the cat, in particular). So he does have a lot of genuine needs. I have cut a lot of people out of his life because I felt they were abusive and not good people to be around. I've been thinking about whether I've over done that and will keep thinking, but at the minute I'm thinking those people needed to be told they needed to modify their behaviour and shown the door when they didn't. Equally none of them have ever tried to see him since which makes me think I did the right thing but I will keep mulling it over, perhaps I have been too harsh.
It does mean I have left him with no-one who spends any time with him. I have felt very disappointed in friends who don't do anything with him, and my sister who no longer seems to bother with him. I think I need to think about my role in this. What I find difficult is that the people who are happy to look after him from time to time are people that I don't particularly want to be friends with. So I feel it is wrong of me to take advantage of them in this way. It feels quite a selfish thing to do. Will keep thinking on this one.
A lot of my friends from 'the old days' drink, smoke and take drugs. It's not something I mind in other people but it's also not something I want as part of my life. I find this one tricky.
I've been in contact with a couple of mums I know through an activity my son goes to. They are nice people, have children with similar problems, live reasonably nearby. So here's my stupid question of the day:
How do you make friends? Is it just a question of hanging out, chatting and seeing how that pans out? I've realised I've always had a 'special' best friend. Eventually this turns to nothing and then I get a new one. Peabody mentions all or nothing thinking - I think I have done this a lot. So if you just want to be 'normal', do you just spend time together, see what happens and accept it as it is? Sorry, I know that sounds ridiculous, I am approaching friendships from what I hope is a healthier place but I've realised I've never done it before and I don't know how to do it without all the drama and all the bells and whistles?!
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Thanks, ((((((Tupp))))))))))).
With this particular individual, it's a bit more complicated since we are both involved with the same volunteer organization and I have no intention of being forced out. To add to the complication, we have known each other for nearly 50 years because, at one time, he used to be my high school teacher when I was only 15 years old! He was somewhat like this back during the 1960's. He has become more obstinate with age! (*shaking my head*) From my perspective, this impacts not just me, it has a ripple affect and impacts MANY people in a negative way...which upsets me.
Bones
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Hi Tupp,
I think it's amazing, and so hopeful, that you've figured out that some of the patterns that apply to dysfunctional romantic relationships can also haunt people trying to make healthier friendships. That is really huge.
So...for that reason, I'd recommend a book I often mention here, because it had a big impact for me, and I can see how it could translate to friendships, too. It's A Fine Romance by Judith Sills.
The thing that was a revelation to me was the idea of "practice" -- and I wonder if it'd be helpful to you.
love,
Hops
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Hi Tupp,
I think it's amazing, and so hopeful, that you've figured out that some of the patterns that apply to dysfunctional romantic relationships can also haunt people trying to make healthier friendships. That is really huge.
So...for that reason, I'd recommend a book I often mention here, because it had a big impact for me, and I can see how it could translate to friendships, too. It's A Fine Romance by Judith Sills.
The thing that was a revelation to me was the idea of "practice" -- and I wonder if it'd be helpful to you.
love,
Hops
Thanks Hopsie, will reread, I have due to an earlier recommendation from you and it is a great book. It's funny the way self help books can say different things to you at different points in your life. I'm re-reading a few at the minute and getting very different things from them now compared to what I got when reading a couple of years ago. The things I'm working on at the minute (in terms of friendhsips) are
Being okay to have a different opinion. I am so used to swallowing my thoughts and comments that I then get resentful that I didn't speak (particularly if I found what the person said offensive). Equally I feel that if someone doesn't agree with me they 'don't like me', so I'm working on it being okay to be friends without having to agree on everything.
Letting the other person take responsibility for the relationship. This is something Peabody mentions in her book and it really rang a bell this time, it's not down to me to do all the phoning, arranging, organising, other people can do this for themselves. Another revelation for me!
Being real. Something else that Peabody mentions, having to always look/sound/come across the best way. I feel like that very much, if I'm having a crap time I tend to stay home rather than let people see me when things are bad. I want to work on that - it's okay to be grumpy/sad/angry/bored/excited/lonely/vulnerable/whatever. Gulp! That's a big one!
Living in reality. I spend huge amounts of time day dreaming about things being different, far more than I spend actually doing things to make life different. I hadn't realised how much until recently. So I'm working on that one, too.
Thank you, again! xx
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I think you're doing some GENIUS introspection, Tupp!
Seriously. Kudos for a great deal of meaningful reflection,
which is showing so clearly your intelligence and determination
not to live on autopilot w/old reflexes.
You are LIGHT YEARS ahead of your FOO role models...
carry on! You are yes you are getting somewhere, this all
is real, and not wasted, and worth
CELEBRATING!
Sincere H/T (hat tip)--and hugs,
Hops
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Aw, thanks, Hopsie :)
I am processing a lot at the minute. I keep 'sensing' my stepdad - that hasn't happened for a long time - and I'm having to sleep with the light on. I've been dreaming about my mum - last night in my dream she was really nice to me, when I got home she'd cleaned my house and told me I looked tired and that she'd make me a cup of tea. I woke up crying, she'd never do that! So I'm assuming the friends stuff is somehow linked to other old stuff and now is just the right time to sift through a bit more.
I'm having a literal clear out and spring clean as well, there's something about the house feeling lighter and easier after a good clear out. I've been focusing on myself a lot and I'm amazed at how much I'm able to get done (and how much better I feel for doing it) when I'm not jumping to other people's tunes. I've always felt I had too much to do and that's why I never had time to do what I really wanted; now I'm starting to think that other people have too much they want me to do and that's why I never get to do what I want :) Have been eating nice meals, watching re-runs of shows I like, reading and writing, as well as lots of playing with my boy and clearing out the cupboards. Things are good.
Thank you :) xx
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I'm so happy to hear this, Tupp.
I love the method of dream interpretation that goes, we (or some element of ourselves) is EVERY element in our dreams.
(I guess that makes sense since dreams come from our own subconscious minds, where all the debris and such gets tossed around and processed in some way...)
So...that makes me see YOU as the loving, nurturing mother in your dream. Mothering yourself, genuinely.
(And the same you who is taking care of yourself is also doing that by respecting your wish for the comfort of the light on, when the stepfather memory makes a visit.
You know just what to do. That ghost will get bored and be off, soon, I bet.)
Sometimes with fearful things, we revisit them sometimes. And maybe it's just to measure our progress.
Light on? Very reasonable comfort choice.
xo
Hops
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Hi everybody,
I just thought I would update this a little as things seem to be going well :)
I have been trying to be more 'real' with people and actually talk about things, good and bad, and trying not to filter what comes out of my mouth (which is second nature to me).
A very nice by-product of this is that I'm receiving some really good advice, some nice comments (positive things! Some people are positive!) and I am generally feeling better about the whole 'people' situation.
I also realised recently that I have a very odd sort of perfectionism thing going on, where the bar seems so high it stops me from bothering at all. I think I've become almost paralysed by fear over the years regarding all sorts of things - my friends, my family, my son, my home, work, my lifestyle and so on. I also realised how much I feel I shouldn't be allowed to have fun. So over the weekend I've tried very hard to put that to one side and just go out and not worry about how I talk or how much I weigh, or whether or not I've 'earned' the right to wind down at the weekend. It was quite hard work, to be honest, but I did enjoy myself and I am going to keep on that track and keep trying to change that.
I've also got into a really nice habit of meeting with a couple of mums from swimming each week for a coffee, they're both really lovely and funny and as it's coffee it's quite quick and therefore wasn't too intimidating to start off with (if you know what I mean).
I've also realised that I think I set the bar too high where friends are concerned - a bit all or nothing, they're either great or they're rubbish. So I'm trying to work on that, just accepting people as they are and not stressing about what they 'mean' by their actions ("oh" as Hops would say) :)
Anyway I just thought I'd share that in case it helps someone else out xx
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(((((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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What a great realization about perfectionism, Tupp....
I really relate to that.
I had huge trouble with anxiety for decades and I know that
was one thing that fed it.
If it's a comfort, getting older seems to quench those wildfires
in the mind. And does make socializing easier too.
I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. Have faith in life
itself. YOU BELONG. You are welcome in the world and life
loves you. That way, any one human doesn't shake you too
much when things go bumpy or smooth.
It's all a big pond and you are WELCOME. There are many fish!
love
Hops
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Thank you, Hops.
I'd never really thought about the perfection thing before, because my life is so imperfect and I'd always thought that perfectionists got everything right all the time. I hadn't considered it might mean you don't even try because you know it won't be good enough. So, yes, I'm just trying to go for it, live it, without thinking, analysing, wondering - just be.
Love Tup xx
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Hi all,
Well I thought I would update this a little as things are going well :)
I have been trying to focus my time and attention on meeting and connecting with new people and trying not to focus on people who I've felt obliged to be around.
I am finding it much easier to just let people go. I was ill for a really long time earlier in the year (months) and it was quite serious at times. I was really shocked at how few people offered to help out or even rang to see how I was. But I think it was what I needed; I've felt able to say to myself that people who don't ring, don't return your calls for months and who aren't willing to make any concessions to make it easier for you to get together aren't friends, they're just people that you know. I had a lot of people like that in my life and it made me feel bad about myself and worthless.
So I've stopped phoning those people and concentrated on building friendships with new people. There are a couple of women in particular that I've been meeting with once a week and I love those get togethers: they're nice ladies I have a lot in common with and we have a good laugh and enjoy each other's company. I've got a birthday coming up and I've invited people that I don't know well but would like to know better. The idea really scares me and I'm nervous about it but I want to try and welcome some new people into my life.
There are other people that I usually feel obliged to invite to things but I haven't to this. I usually worry about how they will feel if they aren't invited, but this time I've decided to invite only those people I see or speak to regularly and not people who only seem to turn up when there's a night out on the cards! I've only been brave enough to tell one person this (when they were asking why they hadn't been invited) and they didn't have anything to say on the matter. I keep thinking about that thing that Hopsie posted - if they can walk away from you, let them go.
It's getting easier! I'm feeling happier, more relaxed, more confident. So it's all moving in the right direction :)
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I am SO impressed. Wowsers, kudos and brava!
And thank you for this:
people who don't ring, don't return your calls for months and who aren't willing to make any concessions to make it easier for you to get together aren't friends, they're just people that you know
That is exactly what I need to be thinking about, in dealing with some hurt over one friend who's not available these days.
She and I initially bonded over our Nmothers, and I thought it would be a big "sisterhood" thing long-term, but I don't think
she's really interested in sustaining our relationship. I was interesting to her initially, but now she's more involved with her
mother (necessarily, as she's old) and has also been going through other personal stuff (lap-band surgery and aftermath)
that may make staying in touch just not a priority. She's also very introverted, but I've kind of stopped buying that, as
she would literally use it as an explanation every time. I have other introvert friends who call every week or two, so
months of silence for that reason ... just doesn't feel true. I think she's lost interest in me, doesn't feel like saying so
and I should let her walk. I'm over my limit of doing all the initiating with her, so I'm letting that go too.
I made one little inner rule: When I next see her and she says Oh we must catch up and get together...I plan to say
something like: If you really mean it, let's set a date now . If when we get home our calendars don't jive, we can move it.
If she evades that, then I'll know it's completely insincere.
Makes me sad. More sad than with general to-and-fro people. I think that's because the issues we connected on were
so deep, early, and difficult. So old bruises have been twanging.
But. I don't need her love or approval to have love and approval in my life!
xo
Hops
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Oh Hopsie, that is exactly the situation I have found myself in over and over again! There have been a number of 'close' relationships, just as you describe - people I've bonded with over shared problems that I've felt a very sisterly attachment to, who I've spent a lot of time with and really opened up with - then suddenly the relationship changes and my calls aren't returned, contact isn't initiated, if we meet up it's me that does the arranging, driving etc.
I think those sort of relationships have developed with me for a number of reasons. The relief of being around someone who 'gets' it is huge. That very close sisterly feel is lovely when you don't have family (or when the family you have are very toxic). And something I realised over time was that I had such a need to be 'liked' and 'popular' that I didn't pay any attention to the quality of the relationship, as long as there was contact. I think the whole scooping up/rescueing thing and then being abandoned again has been a common theme in my life and I think it mirrors my early years - my mum adores babies but gets bored when they get older. I've often felt that I was probably spoilt rotten as a tiny one and then dumped when my sister came along. I've had a lot of friends like that - they call and want to meet up regularly when they have a void to fill but the friendship dwindles as their life improves. Maybe that's the co-dependent in me as well?
I understand the sadness! I've shed so many tears over people I've thought were part of my life who don't feel the same way about me :( But it was a sign I needed healthier relationships. Hope your bruises twang a little less each day. xx
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I haven't been able to read through this whole thread yet but I want to. I identify with the very first post where you said that people tend to select you rather than you deciding who you want to select as friends. Putting more purpose into friendship building sounds like a good idea to me.
A random quote: "The truth is everyone is going to hurt you, you just have to decide who is worth the pain".... not sure if it's true or not, just felt like putting a quote somewhere
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I haven't been able to read through this whole thread yet but I want to. I identify with the very first post where you said that people tend to select you rather than you deciding who you want to select as friends. Putting more purpose into friendship building sounds like a good idea to me.
A random quote: "The truth is everyone is going to hurt you, you just have to decide who is worth the pain".... not sure if it's true or not, just felt like putting a quote somewhere
Hi Green,
It was something that I realised, that I was very passive when it came to friendships. I wondered if it was the reason that people seemed to be very into me for a time and then dropped me - almost like I was serving a purpose rather than being part of a friendship. So I have tried to cultivate getting to know people now, just spending a bit more time with people who are on my wavelength and taking it as it is. I've initiated get togethers which I find really hard - I worry about rejection, I worry that people feel obliged to say yes and don't really want to be there and I worry that I'm boring/pushy/needy etc. But those are all old things that I need to get rid of and stop worrying about so I am trying! Even though it felt uncomfortable at the start it is getting easier now :)
That quote you mention is interesting, although I hope not everyone hurts! But I do feel I've needed to decide who is worth my time, my energy, my soul, in a way? That does sound quite egotistical which I don't mean it too but I realised that a lot of people took up my time and just left me feeling tired/bored/or just wishing I'd done something practical with that time so I could relax in the evening rather than spending an afternoon with someone I didn't want to and then having to spend the evening doing the stuff I should have done in the afternoon! Silly the things we put ourselves through sometimes. HOpe you're doing okay xx
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Oh, Tupp:
Kudos to not calling those people who didn't check on you when you were ill.
One of the ways we KNOW who are friends are......
they're the ones who feed us.
Yes, with food, but also with their time, and care.
It's time you were less passive about friendships, and more selective/focused on the relationships you want in your life going forward.
I say.....
yes: )
::sending cyber gluten free cookies, with a beautiful gluten free lasagna/meat free if you choose::
Light
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Ah, Lighter, the gluten free goodies are gratefully received :) Bless you.
I think I've felt for so long that I've no right to expect anything from anyone that in the past I've disregarded my feelings of disappointment and sadness when people haven't done much (anything) and told myself I'm being silly. But I just feel stronger, somehow, and I can see that, yes, constant demands are draining and too much but that, not just a friend but any decent human being ought to offer to help someone in a difficult situation if they can. And the prospect of admitting to myself that I really had very few friends (which to me signifies that I am unlikeable and unworthy of someone's friendship) was a real toughie. Plus I had to face up to my role in it - I still find that the hardest thing to do in any situation - but for years I have failed to set boundaries, I've not been honest about my feelings and I've put up with all sorts in friendships rather than being alone. And I still struggle a bit with all of it but it's getting better and I really feel I'm heading in the right direction. And I'm starting to see that the people I'm choosing to form friendships with are good, kind, thoughtful people - I have good taste! And that's not something I thought about before.
I think it's one of the things that amazes me about this board and others like it. You have people who have been through such terrible experiences but they are kind, loving and giving and willing to share their time and experience with complete strangers, whilst people like Dr G set up and run boards like this for no reason other than to help people. There is so much good out there, I suppose it's just a question of thinking enough of yourself to think that nothing less will do?
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I'm paraphrasing here, but the saying that comes to mind is.....
"People accept the love they believe they deserve."
I think most of us are in similar boats as you Tupp.
Most of us have boundary work to do.
Most of us need to become aware of the decisions we're making so we can determine to make mindful (different) choices in our lives, or continue getting what we've been getting.
I'm with you.....
I want something else, though I'm not entirely sure what "something else" will be.
I've only determined what it won't be, which is a good place to start: )
::nodding::
Light
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Exactly, Lighter, I think at least if you know what you don't want you can start looking around for something else. I think also that as many of us have never known anything else it's hard to know what we do want as we've no experience of it. And when you're in that odd situation where someone being nice to you actually feels uncomfortable, or you assume that whatever comes your way it will be conditional or have a sting in its tail it's no wonder we don't know what to do.
Here's to moving forward and welcoming good people into our lives :)
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Well, I guess we also don't know how relationships are going to turn out years down the road. Looking back we may be able to see it, though when it begins who knows right... It often feels to me like most adults are busy with their family/children/spouse and friendship really is an after though, as if it's less significant than it was in high school. Lots of people also make friends easily wherever they go. A co-worker of mine was very friendly with me at work, would eat lunch with me etc. Though I sent her an email because we exchanged e-mails and she never did reply. She doesn't work there anymore luckily for her she moved on to something better I am sure. But for her it was more of a work-place alliance then any other kind of friendship. Since she doesn't work their anymore my purpose is null.
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Well, I guess we also don't know how relationships are going to turn out years down the road. Looking back we may be able to see it, though when it begins who knows right... It often feels to me like most adults are busy with their family/children/spouse and friendship really is an after though, as if it's less significant than it was in high school. Lots of people also make friends easily wherever they go. A co-worker of mine was very friendly with me at work, would eat lunch with me etc. Though I sent her an email because we exchanged e-mails and she never did reply. She doesn't work there anymore luckily for her she moved on to something better I am sure. But for her it was more of a work-place alliance then any other kind of friendship. Since she doesn't work their anymore my purpose is null.
Hey Green, yep, that sort of thing has happened to me over and over again. It's what I'm trying to avoid now but it's difficult, you don't want to be suspicious of people?! I think I'm trying to sound people out more now, so for example I was meeting with some mums at our kids swimming lesson - just circumstantial, as we were all there anyway. I suggested meeting an hour earlier for coffee and we do that now, but again it's not an effort for anyone because we're all there anyway, so I've tried out meeting up over the holidays and that's working out really well. Situations I've been in in the past would have been me leaving a message or suggesting a get together, for example, and no-one getting back to me on it, then after the holiday saying 'oh I was too busy' but then wanting to chat because you're in the same place and it's better than them sitting alone. So I'm glad with the way things are working out at the moment, although I still find it odd that I have to think about making friends with people and getting to know them, it seems strange that something that I'd always thought happened naturally needs work :o
I've also noticed a difference in my two groups of friends (or people I know) in what I think of as my before and after periods of 'sorting myself out'. I'm organising a little bash this coming weekend for my birthday, a summer get together in the park, all very relaxed and informal. The 'before sorting myself out' people have on the whole either turned their nose up or not replied to my invite. The 'after sorting myself out people' have generally all replied straight away and are really up for it. It's quite interesting to see how different people respond to the same situation.
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What fascinates me about that friend I was talking about, is that nearly every time I reach a point of really letting her go, internally, she reaches out again. Just happened!
I am no longer angry. But I feel a new distance and my hope is that when we do get together, I'll do a lot more observing of my core self. What am I reacting to? What offers, gestures, signals is she giving me that previously made me lose track of my healthy balance, and boundaries?
She wrote an email: "I miss you...and want to meet your sweet dog..." and wanted to get together "soon."
I am pretty busy for the next week or so so picked a date later in the month.
I don't want to discard her, or to escalate my internal struggle into focusing on judging and blaming. But I do want to see her through fresh eyes. And I'm grateful for this thread, Tupp, because it's giving me a sense of strength in approaching this particular friendship. I need to not re-enact my old sock-monkey-with-Nmother stuff, and I believe that's exactly what had been happening in that relationship.
Remains to be seen if it can be re-created as a reciprocal relationship. Probably not. More likely it'll be present intermittently as a much more superficial relationship than will really be interesting to me. I think that's what's most likely. And that's okay, because she's part of my church extended famiily. So my job is to be at peace with loss and disappointment, let it evolve into a different form, and especially, not confuse it with original wouNds.
Thanks for sharing on all this.
And Lighter, thank you for the "friends are people who FEED you...with their time and care" observation. So simple and clear.
love to all-
Hops
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What fascinates me about that friend I was talking about, is that nearly every time I reach a point of really letting her go, internally, she reaches out again. Just happened!
I am no longer angry. But I feel a new distance and my hope is that when we do get together, I'll do a lot more observing of my core self. What am I reacting to? What offers, gestures, signals is she giving me that previously made me lose track of my healthy balance, and boundaries?
She wrote an email: "I miss you...and want to meet your sweet dog..." and wanted to get together "soon."
I am pretty busy for the next week or so so picked a date later in the month.
I don't want to discard her, or to escalate my internal struggle into focusing on judging and blaming. But I do want to see her through fresh eyes. And I'm grateful for this thread, Tupp, because it's giving me a sense of strength in approaching this particular friendship. I need to not re-enact my old sock-monkey-with-Nmother stuff, and I believe that's exactly what had been happening in that relationship.
Remains to be seen if it can be re-created as a reciprocal relationship. Probably not. More likely it'll be present intermittently as a much more superficial relationship than will really be interesting to me. I think that's what's most likely. And that's okay, because she's part of my church extended famiily. So my job is to be at peace with loss and disappointment, let it evolve into a different form, and especially, not confuse it with original wouNds.
Thanks for sharing on all this.
And Lighter, thank you for the "friends are people who FEED you...with their time and care" observation. So simple and clear.
love to all-
Hops
Hi Hopsie,
Yes, I have a friend who is very like that! it reminds me of that book A fine Romance, you know when she talks about the Switch? When one pulls away the other comes closer again. I don't know if that applies to friendships as well but it's what keeps popping into my head when that situation comes up. But I think a friendship under new terms can be a good thing, I'm starting to see that some friendships that were once close aren't any more but can quite happily be coffee twice a year type friendships if you know what I mean? And I can completely relate to what you say about observing yourself in these situations, what you react to, how you respond and so on. I've a feeling with some friends I'm a bit like a comfy old coat that they don't wear that often but don't want to do without just in case. I suppose the question is what we need from our friendships and I guess we need less from some than from others? I'm really glad you've found the thread helpful; I find this board just so good for helping me sift through what's going on in my head and it feels so safe, I feel that even if I say something stupid no-one judges me and that's very special :)
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Okay, well I think I'm starting to get the hang of this friendship thing!
I've given a lot of thought to 'old' friends and whether or not I'm being reasonable/unreasonable/selfish/expecting too much and so on. I've reversed situations to see what I would do in their shoes and wondered whether my reactions are of a codependent nature, over the top or whatever. The things that I've been wondering about are:
People taking months to return my calls - I've thought about this from so many different angles and whichever way I look at this it is just plain bad manners if nothing else. ON top of that it's a real kind of 'you are not important' signal and I've had enough of those in my life. So I've decided the phone call slackers can go and ignore someone else's call now.
People not offering to help out - ever - I've thought about this loads and yes, people are busy, have work and family commitments (don't we all) but bottom line, if a friend of mine was raising a disabled child alone and I was married with healthy kids and two incomes then yes, I would offer to babysit every now and again and offer to help out if she was unwell. I'd also be happy to visit her at home during the evening if that was easier for her rather than insisting she fit in with my plans and I've thought a lot about whether this is co-dependent but I think no, it's just helping a mate out and that's normal, I think?
People that never ring - I've some friends now I've not heard from for ten months or more. I have stopped fretting about these people and am trying to put my energy into new people.
I am finding it difficult - sometimes the loneliness is so acute that it physically hurts. But I am spending regular time now with some nice ladies I have met and I am trying to see more of people who are good and kind, they just live a long way away and it's not so easy to meet up. But I think it's going in the right direction, although the friends I've lost still feels a bit painful.
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If people don't ignore you for months, don't care enough to help, don't visit...I wonder if 'friends" is the right word?
The only other thing I thought of is -- do you ASK FOR WHAT YOU NEED?
People get so stuck and preoccupied that they give themselves permission I think unconsciously to let things (and people) slide.
If you are happily (not complainingly) assertive, ex: "Hi X, this is Tupp...sorry I missed you but I'd like you to call me back tonight or tomorrow. Talk to you soon!" If they ignore a reasonable request like that, then you're calling the wrong people.
Likewise, with the oblivious 2-earner: "Hi, I'd like to get together but I wanted to say that I need for you to come over here this time, because of ... (brief reason). I'm wondering if you'd be willing to do that next week?" And if that's a NO or excuses, or no return call, etc. -- another one bites the dust. (Foolish of them, but people waste good people all the time.)
And if that happens, good person, you carry on. You DO have a wonderful capacity for friendship. Go forth and find 'em!
Think of it like dating? I've been on dates with about 20 people this year. First or second dates only. And I'm not mad at them and they're not mad at me because I was real, and I kept it LIGHT until I had the chance to meet them and pay attention to how it felt, etc. I am not going to stop this time. If I keep it up for years, so it goes! I am still meeting and enjoying people. I'm not grabbing on.
Etc. If you ASK FOR WHAT YOU NEED (which is normal and okay) and then RELEASE THE OUTCOME (they get to decide whether they can or want to meet that need or not)...you've done all you can. And the river moves on and it will bring you new people over and over, and now and then, one of them in a bright little boat is going to smile and wave and invite you on board for a cuppa.
I sure would, were I lucky enough to live near you.
Hugs
Hops
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Oh Hopsie, dating! That sounds like fun :) Good for you, that might be the next thing I start getting into now the friendship thing is a bit easier :)
I've kind of done those things you suggest, not in exactly the same words but along those lines. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anyone to call me back within 24 hours, we all lead busy lives, I think and there are times I could phone someone but I know they're at work/putting the kids to bed/out for the evening - but I think longer than a couple of weeks without hearing back from someone is a bit near the mark and months is just ridiculous. And yep, have asked people to come here rather than us going to them, come in the evening rather than meeting up during the day etc and the answer from most has either been no or I'll call you and then no call.
I think the thing that goes through my head as well is that I've done so much 'looking after' people in my life that I don't think I want to have to manage people and tell them what they should do (within reason). you know what I mean, I'm sure! I've got better at asking for what I need but I'm still not great at releasing the outcome - working on that!
And yes, it would be great if we didn't have that big stretch of water between us - thank heavens for the internet :)
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Tup:
I think making different choices, no matter which, or how small, always feels painful to some degree.... at least it's uncomfortable.
Then there's that (I'm in so much discomfort I feel it's time to make a move) thing on top of it all, kwim?
It's not just missing your "friends," Tupp....
it's giving up the habits that have sustained you.
You're mourning the loss of certain people, as well as the distraction factor of contacting them/being contacted/having certain expectations/expecting the relationships will become more fulfilling, IMO.
That's a lot to come to grips with, but as you say.....
you're cultivating something new.
Hopefully you'll have a few good friends in place, and get more comfortable with the empty spaces in between old and new relationshoips.
That's the thing....
you have to say NO to some things in order to have space for new things......
and that empty space is full of..........
just ourselves.
We learn about ourselves, sometimes very painful lessons, but become more comfortable in our own skin for the effort.
When we're more comfortable in our own skin, we're able to be better friends, and recognize healthier people/accept them/be comfortable with healthier people.
Does that make sense?
((((Tupp)))
Lighter
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Hi all,
I'm plodding my way through this - I'm enjoying myself, I'm keeping things light, I'm trying very hard not to jump in and do (control) everything as I have in the past and giving other people the opportunity to call, arrange things, come to visit (or not, as the case may be). I'm happy with the way things are and I'm finding that this is all getting easier the more I do it.
There are a couple of tiny things that have niggled at me a bit. I'm not sure why. They aren't a big deal but my radar sort of over responded to them. I'm not worried about it (or planning to do anything about it) but I'm just aware of it and wanted to put it down here and if it rings a bell with anyone else I'd love to know!
First thing is a very good friend who has asked to buy my son a very expensive Christmas present. I've said yes - he'd love it - but expensive Christmas presents always leave me feeling a bit uneasy and I'm not really sure why.
They've also invited us to spend Christmas with them. Again, I'm delighted that they've offered and have accepted but feel a bit uneasy. I don't feel that comfortable with the thought of them doing all the work and providing everything, but when I've eaten at theirs in the past they usually give me back whatever I take over. They also tend to cancel things at very short notice. None of these things is a big deal at all and I'm kind of just ignoring it but didn't want to ignore the fact I do feel a bit uneasy about it, if you see what I mean!
I've mentioned before that I've been meeting a couple of mums for a coffee before our kids swimming lessons. This has become a really regular thing and I really enjoy it. Yesterday neither of them came for coffee and when I went down to swimming one of them said they'd been really worried about me because no-one had seen me. Again, no biggie, I just found it a bit odd as I'd been where we normally would all be at that time of day so didn't get why they'd be worrying.
Anyway, I just wanted to get it down on paper, I'm just observing my feelings and then doing nothing as I don't think it's a big deal, it just seems to be triggering little things for some reason.
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Hi Tupp:
It sounds like you're mindfully leaning into new ways of relating with others.
Sure, it's going to be uncomfortable letting someone else do all the work at Christmas, but look at it this way:
1) you can jump in and help out in the ways that make you feel good, and surely it will be appreciated;
2) it's OK to let others do for you.... it feels good for them, just like it feels good for you to do for others,kwim?
It's hard to get used to having others do for you. Uncomfortable, I know,but necessary if you're going to have reciprocal relationships going forward.
As for the swim moms, that does sound a bit strange, but it doesn't mean it's about you. Everyone has dragons to slay, and everyone has ups and downs. Sometimes the scary parts of our lives triggers other people's fears about what might happen to them. You just don't know, so best not to conjure up the worst, kwim?
So glad to read your update, Tupp: )
Lighter
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This is really good Lighter...
it feels good for them, just like it feels good for you to do for others
Tupp, I think your "uneasy" is a feeling to recognize is like drizzle, weather wise. It's just weather.
I think it's a false alarm, just some residue from old fears.
You can be disappointed and you will be, because NO friend, old or new, will be perfect.
But ... you have to relax enough to let good happen. Just hold it lightly.
When good happens, it isn't the answer to everything. It doesn't hold dramatic meaning.
It's just...good. Okay to enjoy it, receive it, let it come, and let it go again.
You deserve some good but there's no mysterious quota of good that you'll get or lose
or capture or keep or have a little or have a lot of. There's no quota, nobody's dishing it out
or taking it back.
It's just you moving through the world, maybe a little more receptive to letting good happen to you.
Hope you can enjoy it!
love
Hops
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Thanks, you two! I find I struggle with people a lot more when I'm finding life difficult in general. I just get really annoyed over little things. I start to feel like I'm kept in a little box, waiting for someone to take me out and play with me for a while, then put me away again when they're done.
A friend I haven't heard from in almost a year rang wanting to get together. I just don't feel connections with people I don't speak to regularly any more. I couldn't make the date she suggested and now she keeps phoning wanting to sort something out. I'm torn between telling the truth and just ignoring her until she stops ringing. Telling the truth feels like the right thing to do. But I know from past experience telling the truth usually leads to loads more hassle, which puts me off.
Another friend made arrangements for a day out, then wanted to change all the arrangements because other plans had changed and she wanted to do other stuff as well. It really irritated me, far more than it should have done, really. I didn't change, instead we cancelled. I just feel like it's always me that is flexible and keeps changing things. I find it really tiring.
Another friend took two weeks to get back to me about something and then wanted to do it straight away. I don't know how to explain how I feel, I know it's out of proportion to what's actually happening but I feel constantly invisible and then expected to perform. I feel so lonely but then I find being around people such hard work that I just don't want to do it a lot of the time.
Sorry, just needed a moan.
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Thanks, you two! I find I struggle with people a lot more when I'm finding life difficult in general. I just get really annoyed over little things. I start to feel like I'm kept in a little box, waiting for someone to take me out and play with me for a while, then put me away again when they're done.
A friend I haven't heard from in almost a year rang wanting to get together. I just don't feel connections with people I don't speak to regularly any more. I couldn't make the date she suggested and now she keeps phoning wanting to sort something out. I'm torn between telling the truth and just ignoring her until she stops ringing. Telling the truth feels like the right thing to do. But I know from past experience telling the truth usually leads to loads more hassle, which puts me off.
Another friend made arrangements for a day out, then wanted to change all the arrangements because other plans had changed and she wanted to do other stuff as well. It really irritated me, far more than it should have done, really. I didn't change, instead we cancelled. I just feel like it's always me that is flexible and keeps changing things. I find it really tiring.
Another friend took two weeks to get back to me about something and then wanted to do it straight away. I don't know how to explain how I feel, I know it's out of proportion to what's actually happening but I feel constantly invisible and then expected to perform. I feel so lonely but then I find being around people such hard work that I just don't want to do it a lot of the time.
Sorry, just needed a moan.
Tupp,
You're not alone. I'm struggling with that now, too.
It feels like....."If someone can't U-u-u-se me, then they have NO USE for me!" I'm invisible until they want something. Then once they get what THEY WANT, then I'm told to "get lost".
Know what I mean?
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Thanks, you two! I find I struggle with people a lot more when I'm finding life difficult in general. I just get really annoyed over little things. I start to feel like I'm kept in a little box, waiting for someone to take me out and play with me for a while, then put me away again when they're done.
A friend I haven't heard from in almost a year rang wanting to get together. I just don't feel connections with people I don't speak to regularly any more. I couldn't make the date she suggested and now she keeps phoning wanting to sort something out. I'm torn between telling the truth and just ignoring her until she stops ringing. Telling the truth feels like the right thing to do. But I know from past experience telling the truth usually leads to loads more hassle, which puts me off.
Another friend made arrangements for a day out, then wanted to change all the arrangements because other plans had changed and she wanted to do other stuff as well. It really irritated me, far more than it should have done, really. I didn't change, instead we cancelled. I just feel like it's always me that is flexible and keeps changing things. I find it really tiring.
Another friend took two weeks to get back to me about something and then wanted to do it straight away. I don't know how to explain how I feel, I know it's out of proportion to what's actually happening but I feel constantly invisible and then expected to perform. I feel so lonely but then I find being around people such hard work that I just don't want to do it a lot of the time.
Sorry, just needed a moan.
Tupp,
You're not alone. I'm struggling with that now, too.
It feels like....."If someone can't U-u-u-se me, then they have NO USE for me!" I'm invisible until they want something. Then once they get what THEY WANT, then I'm told to "get lost".
Know what I mean?
I do Bonesie, I do.
It's one of those things that I struggle with. I know I am very sensitive to other people - overly so, in some cases. And I do understand and appreciate that most people have busy lives and are juggling jobs, kids, family, chores and have their own problems to deal with as well. So I try not to focus on it all too much. And I suppose that not having a family or a partner means that I do want more from my friends than other people do, perhaps? I don't know. But at the minute it all feels like too much of an effort.
There's a chap who runs one of the groups we go to, it's a sports group for disabled people. This chap is ex-army and so very hot on people being on time and being where they're supposed to be. He can't understand how people can live their lives not being in the right place at the right time. I feel a bit like that. I don't get why it's impossible for some people to return a phone call or let me know whether or not they want to do something. I don't mean instantly, but I think within a week is reasonable in most circumstances, particularly as we now have phone, text and email. I don't get people changing arrangements that have already been organised for their convenience. In an emergency it's perfectly understandable but other than that I just find it annoying. And I've just got to a point where I feel like I can't be arsed with it. Partly because I do find I'm quite an out of sight, out of mind person. If I don't hear back I start focusing on something else. Then when they do call I sort of feel like I've moved past that point. I don't really know how to explain it.
Anyhow. Sorry again for all the moaning! Are you feeling any better yet?
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Thanks, you two! I find I struggle with people a lot more when I'm finding life difficult in general. I just get really annoyed over little things. I start to feel like I'm kept in a little box, waiting for someone to take me out and play with me for a while, then put me away again when they're done.
A friend I haven't heard from in almost a year rang wanting to get together. I just don't feel connections with people I don't speak to regularly any more. I couldn't make the date she suggested and now she keeps phoning wanting to sort something out. I'm torn between telling the truth and just ignoring her until she stops ringing. Telling the truth feels like the right thing to do. But I know from past experience telling the truth usually leads to loads more hassle, which puts me off.
Another friend made arrangements for a day out, then wanted to change all the arrangements because other plans had changed and she wanted to do other stuff as well. It really irritated me, far more than it should have done, really. I didn't change, instead we cancelled. I just feel like it's always me that is flexible and keeps changing things. I find it really tiring.
Another friend took two weeks to get back to me about something and then wanted to do it straight away. I don't know how to explain how I feel, I know it's out of proportion to what's actually happening but I feel constantly invisible and then expected to perform. I feel so lonely but then I find being around people such hard work that I just don't want to do it a lot of the time.
Sorry, just needed a moan.
Tupp,
You're not alone. I'm struggling with that now, too.
It feels like....."If someone can't U-u-u-se me, then they have NO USE for me!" I'm invisible until they want something. Then once they get what THEY WANT, then I'm told to "get lost".
Know what I mean?
I do Bonesie, I do.
It's one of those things that I struggle with. I know I am very sensitive to other people - overly so, in some cases. And I do understand and appreciate that most people have busy lives and are juggling jobs, kids, family, chores and have their own problems to deal with as well. So I try not to focus on it all too much. And I suppose that not having a family or a partner means that I do want more from my friends than other people do, perhaps? I don't know. But at the minute it all feels like too much of an effort.
There's a chap who runs one of the groups we go to, it's a sports group for disabled people. This chap is ex-army and so very hot on people being on time and being where they're supposed to be. He can't understand how people can live their lives not being in the right place at the right time. I feel a bit like that. I don't get why it's impossible for some people to return a phone call or let me know whether or not they want to do something. I don't mean instantly, but I think within a week is reasonable in most circumstances, particularly as we now have phone, text and email. I don't get people changing arrangements that have already been organised for their convenience. In an emergency it's perfectly understandable but other than that I just find it annoying. And I've just got to a point where I feel like I can't be arsed with it. Partly because I do find I'm quite an out of sight, out of mind person. If I don't hear back I start focusing on something else. Then when they do call I sort of feel like I've moved past that point. I don't really know how to explain it.
Anyhow. Sorry again for all the moaning! Are you feeling any better yet?
Thanks, Tupp.
I have good days and bad days.
I really identify with what you said. Regarding the ex-army chap, I can understand his annoyance especially when he's planned something, given his schedule, and, invariably, there is always a late-comer who shows up either in the middle or toward the end and expects everyone to accommodate THEM! I've known late-comers who will show up HOURS late for something and demand attention the instant they walk in the door...ALL THE TIME! I've watched this done at a party, where the host and hostess were BUSY attending to other guests, when the "QUEEN" ANNOUNCED HER ARRIVAL and EXPECTED EVERYONE to STOP AND ATTEND HER! (Guess what? Didn't happen! The result was that she was NEVER invited again! The idiot who pulled that stunt was NDoofus, my EX-friend.)
This may sound weird, but at times I feel like I want to knock on a neighbor's door and ask: "Do you want to come out and play?" Everyone's so busy that nobody wants to do anything.
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I'm so tired I just want to go to sleep and not play with anybody. What a grump.
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I'm so tired I just want to go to sleep and not play with anybody. What a grump.
Lol well that's just how I feel today Green so you are in good company. I think that there's so much going on - my son's disability, my own health problems, dealing with this paperwork, all the emotional stuff that comes up with it and the ordinary every day things like running a home - that I just genuinely haven't got the energy for other people. At all. Maybe that's it? Maybe other people aren't so constantly knackered that they don't mind faffing around making arrangements over and over again, whereas those of us already dealing with other stuff just can't be arsed? Who knows?
Bones, I hope you get more good days and bad. And someone to play with :) Yes, I know people like that. I have a friend - who I try and see less of now - who just last week wrote a date down on my calendar without asking me whether I was free or whether I wanted to meet with her and the other person she'll be with. And I don't want to, the other friend is someone else I rarely hear from and I just don't want to spend time with her anymore. I honestly feel scared about saying that. But I feel I'm being deceitful if I don't tell the truth.
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"Bones, I hope you get more good days and bad. And someone to play with Smile Yes, I know people like that. I have a friend - who I try and see less of now - who just last week wrote a date down on my calendar without asking me whether I was free or whether I wanted to meet with her and the other person she'll be with. And I don't want to, the other friend is someone else I rarely hear from and I just don't want to spend time with her anymore. I honestly feel scared about saying that. But I feel I'm being deceitful if I don't tell the truth."
Thanks, Tupp.
From my perspective, you're not being deceitful when the other person REFUSES to HEAR YOU!
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"Bones, I hope you get more good days and bad. And someone to play with Smile Yes, I know people like that. I have a friend - who I try and see less of now - who just last week wrote a date down on my calendar without asking me whether I was free or whether I wanted to meet with her and the other person she'll be with. And I don't want to, the other friend is someone else I rarely hear from and I just don't want to spend time with her anymore. I honestly feel scared about saying that. But I feel I'm being deceitful if I don't tell the truth."
Thanks, Tupp.
From my perspective, you're not being deceitful when the other person REFUSES to HEAR YOU!
Thanks, Bones. I think I'm starting to get my head around it all a bit more now. I think what I want in a friendship is equality? There will always be times when one person is more capable than the other for all sorts of reasons. But I think I'd got to the point where I felt like I was making a lot more effort than other people were. I think I also still feel a bit as if I don't have a right to choose who my friends are. I think I've mentioned in this that I've always been very passive in friendships and I've sort of gone along with other people regardless of whether or not I want to be around them and/or enjoy spending time with them. I've also got to a point, I think, where I can see that there are some people who I did/do like but our lives have got to a point now where the relationship just isn't sustainable. I suppose friendships are like romantic relationships in the sense that sometimes it just runs its course, there isn't always a big reason or a situation.
But I think what I do want in my life are friends that make a similar amount of effort to see or spend time with me and who enjoy my company and aren't just filling time until something or someone else comes along. I think that's happened a lot to me, largely because I just let myself go along with things. So I'm making an effort to connect more with other people. I think there is also that comfort zone of doing something even though you don't really want to anymore? So I'm trying to get out of that now as well.
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"Bones, I hope you get more good days and bad. And someone to play with Smile Yes, I know people like that. I have a friend - who I try and see less of now - who just last week wrote a date down on my calendar without asking me whether I was free or whether I wanted to meet with her and the other person she'll be with. And I don't want to, the other friend is someone else I rarely hear from and I just don't want to spend time with her anymore. I honestly feel scared about saying that. But I feel I'm being deceitful if I don't tell the truth."
Thanks, Tupp.
From my perspective, you're not being deceitful when the other person REFUSES to HEAR YOU!
Thanks, Bones. I think I'm starting to get my head around it all a bit more now. I think what I want in a friendship is equality? There will always be times when one person is more capable than the other for all sorts of reasons. But I think I'd got to the point where I felt like I was making a lot more effort than other people were. I think I also still feel a bit as if I don't have a right to choose who my friends are. I think I've mentioned in this that I've always been very passive in friendships and I've sort of gone along with other people regardless of whether or not I want to be around them and/or enjoy spending time with them. I've also got to a point, I think, where I can see that there are some people who I did/do like but our lives have got to a point now where the relationship just isn't sustainable. I suppose friendships are like romantic relationships in the sense that sometimes it just runs its course, there isn't always a big reason or a situation.
But I think what I do want in my life are friends that make a similar amount of effort to see or spend time with me and who enjoy my company and aren't just filling time until something or someone else comes along. I think that's happened a lot to me, largely because I just let myself go along with things. So I'm making an effort to connect more with other people. I think there is also that comfort zone of doing something even though you don't really want to anymore? So I'm trying to get out of that now as well.
You're welcome, Tupp.
I'm saying too much right now as I'm feeling really cranky about a 3-D situation here.
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Tupp--
Two "secrets" (from learning everything the hard way):
1) "Keep the line moving." (IOW, meet a LOT of people...hence, community, exposing yourself to groups, more and more.)
2) Reciprocity. (If you do #1, eventually you'll find some folks who seem to respond, and respond adequately.)
Bonus secret: Keep enough "score" to be aware when relationships (and who reaches out) are way out of balance, but not so precisely that you can't tolerate variations in "appetite for connection."
xxoo
Hops
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Tupp--
Two "secrets" (from learning everything the hard way):
1) "Keep the line moving." (IOW, meet a LOT of people...hence, community, exposing yourself to groups, more and more.)
2) Reciprocity. (If you do #1, eventually you'll find some folks who seem to respond, and respond adequately.)
Bonus secret: Keep enough "score" to be aware when relationships (and who reaches out) are way out of balance, but not so precisely that you can't tolerate variations in "appetite for connection."
xxoo
Hops
Hi Hops,
Yes, I see what you're saying here. I've been thinking about this over the last few days and I realised that when we were little my mum's preferred form of punishment was silence. She'd go days without speaking to us over some misdemeanour or other. So I think now when I call someone and they don't call back it triggers that feeling of "what did I do? Why am I being ignored? When will it stop". When we were kids I used to trip over myself to get her talking to me again, and I think the shift in that behaviour is that I stopped returning people's calls straight away if it had been weeks since they'd called me. I know it sounds childish (like a sort of tit for tat) but as I look at it now I think it was breaking the pattern in the behaviour. I'd call them, get silence for two months and then be so grateful that they'd called me that I'd ring back straight away and be very effusive and chatty. And that was really pissing me off; I felt I was being treated badly but jumping through hoops instead of complaining about it.
So I think what I'm trying to do at the minute is trying to get that balance of not being around people who trigger too much but not cutting out so many that I'm left with no-one. But definitely meeting new people is something I'm getting better at and feeling more confident about :)
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I understand that so well, Tupp.
To me, the silent treatment feels like shunning.
I also have a very hard time with managing the "space" between connection, sometimes.
love
Hops
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So I think what I'm trying to do at the minute is trying to get that balance of not being around people who trigger too much but not cutting out so many that I'm left with no-one. But definitely meeting new people is something I'm getting better at and feeling more confident about :)
Yah,
Finding the "right" people if they even exist is quite the process I suppose.
I find that a lot of people are very selective with whom they become friends with and I never really figured it all out to be honest.
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So I think what I'm trying to do at the minute is trying to get that balance of not being around people who trigger too much but not cutting out so many that I'm left with no-one. But definitely meeting new people is something I'm getting better at and feeling more confident about :)
Yah,
Finding the "right" people if they even exist is quite the process I suppose.
I find that a lot of people are very selective with whom they become friends with and I never really figured it all out to be honest.
Ha, no, me neither, Green!
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I understand that so well, Tupp.
To me, the silent treatment feels like shunning.
I also have a very hard time with managing the "space" between connection, sometimes.
love
Hops
Yes, it's that balance, isn't it, between other people not needing the same as we do but being aware enough of what we do need that we don't put ourselves under unnecessary pressure to fit in or ignore the way something makes us feel. It was interesting because I talked about all of this briefly with this new therapist last week and when I mentioned 'normal' reactions to things she said "What's normal? Don't dismiss something because you don't think you should feel or think that way, it's your perception, it's valid. You don't have to be like other people". We didn't go any further with it as there wasn't time with that session but it is making me think about the way I prioritise my time (me and what I want at the back of the queue) and the fact that so many people in my life also leave me at the back of the queue! And ironically what I want the most is to be at the front!
Bizarrely, several people that I haven't heard from in ages (about a year or so) have all got in touch in the space of this last week or two. Because I've not heard from them for so long, I've decided to try not to call back straight away but to wait until I've done everything else I want to do and then return their calls when it suits me. It feels very alien to me to think like this.
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I love your therapist.
And I love hearing how you're trying NEW approaches!
That's awesome, Tupp.
:)
Hops
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I love your therapist.
And I love hearing how you're trying NEW approaches!
That's awesome, Tupp.
:)
Hops
Thanks, Hops :) I liked the therapist as well, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for some good work with her!
I think I am going to try another new approach as well, although my mind is a bit muddled about it so it's a bit vague at the minute.
This week has been odd, both brilliant and terrible at the same time. It's been like living two different lives at once.
On the one hand we went to this demo, met loads of people, got loads of info about other protests to get involved in and I felt really alive, for the first time in a really long time. My son enjoyed it as well so for us to have something we both really like that I feel is doing some good as well is amazing.
But I haven't had a conversation about this in the real world, because I haven't actually had a conversation with anyone this week that's extended beyond a quick chit chat and, in all honesty, no-one I know is really interested in things like protests, they think it's a bit radical and out there (that's the impression I've got from the lack of interest in us doing it, anyway).
What I have done this week is offer support to: a friend who is suffering from cancer, a friend whose son is having terrible problems, a friend who's suffering from terrible migraines, a friend who's son is being tested for health problems and another friend who is coping with the anniversary of her daughter's death this week. On top of which I fitted in a protest march, a week of home schooling, the usual day to day running of the house, a therapy session (which no-one other than people on this board knows about because I haven't spoken to anyone about me this week) and the fact that both my son and myself are still run down after colds and both generally worn out.
I think this is the first time I really clearly see the lack of balance in my life. I don't have anyone in the real world to share any of this with, to off load to, to take on a bit of the work for me. So I am seeing that I really need to change this and to start putting myself first, and to try and do something about the fact that there seems to be so much ill health and disaster in my life.
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That's a massive list! And you forgot the troubled young girl online.
Tupp, that's a good thing. I noticed on the other thread you named it co-dependence.
I have a very close and beloved friend, a hospice social worker. Just quit after completely
exhausting herself with over-dedication, as a matter of fact. I have my pathologies, which
she understands and accepts, and she has hers, which I understand but accept less gracefully
(because one of the lovely things I inherited was reflex to be judgmental...)
So. This thing I notice about her, that I am averse to, is her attitude toward animals.
First. I BENEFIT from it, because she adores my pooch and takes care of her for me sometimes.
But also, sometimes it squicks me out. Hard to describe, but, when we take walks and encounter
any animal at all (usually contented pet dogs or cats), her response to every single animal regardless of its
youth or age is:
Ohhhhh baaaaaaaaaaaaaby, okay, okay, yes, yes, okay, come here, yes, come here, it's okay baaaaaaaaaaby.
And it's like, every single living thing she encounters she responds to as though:
1) they are at that very moment in a tragic state of being abused
2) she is the only one whose empathy is functional and can respond to rescue them
Odd. But I notice that this is the loop she's in. It's as though because of her own damage,
she cannot empathize with ease, with relaxation, with peace, with simple wellbeing. She is
restless, in some way, I believe, that causes her to yearn for others' suffering to soothe.
I can't count the ways I am fortunate in how she's soothed mine. So, she is one of my
friends I am most profoundly grateful for (hence my guilt over these critical thoughts).
And I support her too. But this one habit, with animals we meet, feels unwell, in a way.
Couple times, when she's been crouched on a sidewalk entreating an animal to come to her
in that way, they've walked around her and come straight to me. I'd just been looking, delighting,
and welcoming them, mentally.
It's like for her, all animals are hospice patients. And I don't like how I feel around this vibe.
I know she's utterly trustworthy and we will be mutually supportive and caring old ladies.
She is also one of the LEAST judgmental people I know, when it comes to emotions. I do
feel incredibly lucky to have her in my life. But at times, just now and then, I feel a little tiny
vibe of her being just a tad...buzzardly.
Isn't that an awful way to judge someone? I don't mind confessing it here though.
And what the hell is wrong with anyone who so yearns to help and rescue? Maybe
something's wrong with ME. Something else, I mean. I'll add it to things I need to
contemplate.
Your list of helpees made me think of it, though it's not equivalent.
I am delighted to hear how you're groping to find yourself in the middle of these
urges, Tupp. I think it's very very healthy.
love
Hops
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Ha ha, Hopsie, that did make me laugh, I have a friend who's like that with young children, we'll be out somewhere and, mid-conversation, she suddenly gives a gasp that makes me think she's having a heart attack or something and it's not, she's seen a toddler and just goes into raptures about how wonderful they are. I do see completely what you mean, empathy is another skill I need to practise, I think. There is a fine line between caring and being overbearing, just as there is a fine line between healthy boundaries and being heartless.
Of the list of people I support, only one of them genuinely doesn't have anyone else around to support them (that's the young lady online). My friend who has cancer doesn't have much support and that is one of those awful illnesses where you do want to be as supportive as possible. Equally with my friend whose daughter died, as it's the anniversary I do want to see her at that time and let her know I'm thinking of her.
But the others all have other people around them and I think, like your friend with the dogs, because I have no-one, in the same way that she thinks every animal is being abused, I assume everyone is terribly lonely and neglected, and in the same way that she thinks she's the only one that will rescue them, I think I'm the only one that will bother. Ironically, even in that situation, there is still no-one who bothers with me. So I think I must start bothering with myself?
I realised today that there is no-one in my life who loves me. No family, no partner and, whilst I have friends, I wouldn't say that I feel loved by any of them. My son loves me but I don't feel that with him as he's not able to express that or think of others because of the problems he has. I think that love is different, anyway, it's not the same as adult to adult.
But it made me think that I've used doing good and being caring as a way of trying to replicate that feeling of being loved and wanted. People are nice to you when you are doing good things for them and I think that's the mistake I've made. I've been so focused on getting those feel good feelings that I haven't thought about how to do it in any way other than giving constantly. So I need to address that somehow, I'm just not quite sure how at the minute!
I don't think that you are judging your friend, more that you're observing her behaviour at certain times. It would be hard not to notice. Don't contemplate too much on that, I don't believe the list should be that long xx
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I was reading an article that was taking the mickey out of Gwyneth Paltrow's website Goop and it mentioned this article on friendships, which I actually found quite useful:
http://www.goop.com/journal/be/71/friendship-divorce
I feel a bit like I'm moving between two worlds at the moment. In one world I have 'old' friends who, for the most part, I no longer have much in common with and who I don't want to spend too much time with. In the other, I have 'new' friends, who are more my kind of people and who I like being around but I find my insecurities and anxieties make it difficult at times to meet up with them or to just go with it and enjoy it. I have a deep seated belief that I'm simply not clever enough/nice enough/ funny enough for these people to want to be around. But I feel that I am getting there slowly. It's blooming hard work, though!
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Thanks for making me laugh too Tupp...you so GOT it with this:
we'll be out somewhere and, mid-conversation, she suddenly gives a gasp that makes me think she's having a heart attack or something and it's not, she's seen a toddler
That's a spot-on sendup. Hysterical!
And as to your new friends, hon...here's the great big unavoidable only-answer-there-is secret...the answer is...
practice.
Look at all encounters/assays/efforts/risks/reachings-out as...practice.
It really really helps.
love
Hops
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Thanks for making me laugh too Tupp...you so GOT it with this:
we'll be out somewhere and, mid-conversation, she suddenly gives a gasp that makes me think she's having a heart attack or something and it's not, she's seen a toddler
That's a spot-on sendup. Hysterical!
And as to your new friends, hon...here's the great big unavoidable only-answer-there-is secret...the answer is...
practice.
Look at all encounters/assays/efforts/risks/reachings-out as...practice.
It really really helps.
love
Hops
Yes, the practise bit is hard but I'm trying and it is easier at times! I do feel I'm on the right track, it just feels like a really steep learning curve sometimes :)
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I've been thinking about all of this a lot recently and really just want to get what is in my head down here, even though some of it I think has been said before.
I have noticed some patterns in my behaviour when I look back over my life. Whenever there is a major upset, I head for my home town. I despise the area I grew up in. It is full of bad memories, it is full of people who drive me mad, I was bored rigid by the time I was fifteen and it's a deprived area miles from any kind of civilization. Yet when things go wrong in my attempts to escape it all I always head back there. I think it is safer than battling through new things and coping with what life throws at me. So that is one thing that I need to work on now.
As far as friendships go I think I have mentioned before that I have always been very passive and have gone with people who've come to me rather than taking the initiative and getting to know people who interest me. My focus is on whether they like me/accept me rather than whether I enjoy their company and find them interesting. I focus on what other people want/need rather than what I want or need.
I've been thinking about how to make new friends and have decided that there are three people I already know that I would like to get to know better. It feels very calculating but I am going to try and schedule time with them on a weekly basis to get to know them better and to see if the relationship can grow. This feels sort of wrong but also seems sensible?
I'd also like to try and meet more people and get out of my comfort zone a bit so in the New Year I am going to sign up for an indoor rock climbing course I saw advertised. They do beginners classes at a low rate and then run women only sessions as well as mixed ones. I'd like to go to the women only ones. I'd really like to develop some healthy female relationships and I thought that meeting people via an activity might be a good way to do it. I'd also really like to start having a separate life from my son now that he's getting older. He already goes rock climbing so it's something that we could do together and on our own so it seems like a good place to start.
I've realised I find it easier to stay in friendships I'm not keen on rather than making new ones. I find the whole process really frightening. Having to deal with possible rejection is a big deal for me. But I think I need to work on that now.
So that's my update for the time being. I feel like I am stepping into an abyss! But now I think I can see where I've made mistakes before I'm hoping I can do things differently now.
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I suck at making friends, I even almost freeze up with people, maybe I can attribute it to social anxiety or such.
If I were to make a concerted effort to be some person's friend I wonder what I would do.
How is making friends as an adult different from childhood. Are there rules of making friends as an adult? In the work place?
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I suck at making friends, I even almost freeze up with people, maybe I can attribute it to social anxiety or such.
If I were to make a concerted effort to be some person's friend I wonder what I would do.
How is making friends as an adult different from childhood. Are there rules of making friends as an adult? In the work place?
I wish I knew the answers to those questions, Green! I'm almost the opposite, in the sense I can do the social chit chat and the superficial stuff till the cows come home. But when it comes to the nitty gritty of friendship - intimacy, hanging in there through tough times, feeling close to people - it sort of doesn't happen. I crave company but I do find I don't really miss people? It's like one bit of me is asleep and doesn't really notice what anyone else is doing.
So I don't know. For now, I'm trying on mutual interests and just trying to hang out with people a little more and see how it goes. I find rejection really difficult to deal with and see it so easily. I'm trying to work on that. Maybe it's the old cliché of having to be friends with yourself before you can do it with anyone else?
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Joint exhilarating and/or meaningful activities that you do regularly (as in regularly) with a group of other people. The activity keeps the focus off self-consciousness. The flow of casual exchange just happens in a shared activity. Over time, because it is happening regularly, you get to know those you're spending the time with. One or another might say yes, if you invite them to meet for coffee before or after. If one says No, you practice going, "Oh, that's okay. Let me know if another time works." And then invite a different one.
Meanwhile, you've got the exhilarating/meaningful activity. You're befriending yourself and increasing your positive vibes simply by doing that.
Not magic, but it's how people connect.
Activity ideas: 1) art class, 2) volunteering, 3) political activism, 4) non-dogmatic church
xo
Hops
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Yah, my co-worker wants to listen to live music together and we talk about it but the logistics just are not easy to make it happen.
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I thought I'd update this as things are going well.
I thought a lot about what I want/need from people in my life, and one thing I realised was that I have friends (or know people) who, although they want to get together, they want to spend the time sitting around not doing much - going out for lunch, going to the pub, hanging out in each others houses, that sort of thing. Although I do like all of those things, practically I just don't have the time to do much of it. I do a lot with my son daytime and evening and I don't often get a babysitter. One thing I do every day (or most days, at least) is go out for a walk.
So I had a think about people I would like to get to know better (this is me practising being proactive instead of waiting for people to decide they want to be my friend) and I've been arranging walks with people about three times a week now. Apart from it being good exercise, it's something I do anyway so it's not an extra demand on my time and I've been able to get to know some of these people better and decide whether I want to spend more or less time with them.
It's been really nice and off the back of it I've been to a couple of people's for lunch and I've invited someone over to my house tomorrow. I rarely do this as I feel my house is quite rundown and I worry people will criticise me for it, but this is another hang up from my mum that I need to shift so I bit the bullet. I've also arranged a cinema night with another single mum and our boys; I don't know her very well but she seems nice and I'd like to get to know her better, so we're going to see a (kids) film and go for a coffee after.
I feel like the change has been a long time coming but something has definitely shifted. I just don't feel as lonely or hopeless about it all now. I'm also finding I'm much better at not leaping in to offer to do things for people and more content just to get to know someone rather than having some sort of co-dependent or just seeing them because they want to type thing. It's also helping that I'm doing things that suit me rather than trying to fit into other people's plans all the time.
So all in all things are going well, although I do realise there may be blips along the way, I feel I'm getting to a place where I can cope with those now rather than it being a big disaster.
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Tupp:
Being happy draws others to us.
We can't truthfully always BE joyful, but it's a whole life outlook we can practice cultivating, I think.
::nodding::
So, do you believe you would benefit from more adult interaction? Self care time?
What jumped out at me was the possibility of finding another mom or two you can set up routine playdates with, trading off so everyone gets more time to do things away from children.
The possibility of enjoying larger playdates, with mom and 2 or 3 children coming together, also sounds like a way to mix things up and get everyone's needs met, IMO.
In any case, everyone is drawn to joyful positive spirits.
Lighter: )
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WOW, Tupp!
That is just awesomely positive behavior!
Holy moly.
Good going!!!!!!!!!!
hugs
Hops
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Tupp:
Being happy draws others to us.
We can't truthfully always BE joyful, but it's a whole life outlook we can practice cultivating, I think.
::nodding::
So, do you believe you would benefit from more adult interaction? Self care time?
What jumped out at me was the possibility of finding another mom or two you can set up routine playdates with, trading off so everyone gets more time to do things away from children.
The possibility of enjoying larger playdates, with mom and 2 or 3 children coming together, also sounds like a way to mix things up and get everyone's needs met, IMO.
In any case, everyone is drawn to joyful positive spirits.
Lighter: )
At the minute I'm finding the whole thing very nice but quite unnerving. I'm sticking with it, but my anxieties have really surprised me. I went out to the pub at the weekend to meet a friend and he has three other friends there, none of whom I'd met before. I found it quite difficult to chat and ended up making one drink last for over an hour because I didn't have the confidence to get up and ask the people standing at the bar to move out of the way. But I went, and I stuck it out even though I found it difficult and I did enjoy it even though it didn't feel easy or natural. I've two dog walks booked for this week (that's with friends who have dogs) and I've vague plans to go and visit another two people although I've not arranged it as we might not get time.
Playdates may come - my son's not massively keen on other kids due to his autism but he's getting better and he is doing more on his own. Tonight he has youth club and I'm going swimming :) Getting there, getting there, getting there :) xx
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WOW, Tupp!
That is just awesomely positive behavior!
Holy moly.
Good going!!!!!!!!!!
hugs
Hops
I love 'Holy Moly' :) Moving forward. Trying to take it as it is and enjoy it at the time. A new way of doing things for me. Still feels a bit strange but I'm getting there :) Thank you :)
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So glad you're making a change, and finding better ways, Tupp.
Just getting started can sometimes be the hardest part, then doors are opening, and there's less time for stress, kwim?
I think playdate exchanges will happen organically, as you and your son get comfortable with other moms and children, or they won't.
Something to keep in mind.
In the meantime, ask yourself what you really want to do at least once a day.
Try to be mindful about giving to yourself. You give so much to others....
you need attention too; )
Light
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So glad you're making a change, and finding better ways, Tupp.
Just getting started can sometimes be the hardest part, then doors are opening, and there's less time for stress, kwim?
I think playdate exchanges will happen organically, as you and your son get comfortable with other moms and children, or they won't.
Something to keep in mind.
In the meantime, ask yourself what you really want to do at least once a day.
Try to be mindful about giving to yourself. You give so much to others....
you need attention too; )
Light
Ah thank you, Lighter (((((((((((((((((Lighter)))))))))))))))))))))))
Was massively triggered today, not really sure why but was out for a walk with two nice ladies, my son and their dogs, beautiful scenery, stopped for a snack and a drink afterwards, chatting away, came home feeling utterly bereft, took myself off to bed with a hot water bottle, had a good cry and a flood of childhood memories came through so strongly; an incident as a teenager when a whole group of 'friends' got up one by one to go to the toilet and didn't come back (we'd been out for the day and were on the train on the way home). None of them ever spoke to me again after that day, or me to them and I never had any idea why they did it. When we got to the station they all got out of another carriage and I just walked home on my own. And a whole lot of stuff to do with my mum attacking my dad and some of her generally crazy behaviour when we were kids. How that woman has ever had the nerve to criticise anyone else is beyond me.
So yes, a whole lot of stuff came out, we're out this evening which is probably a good thing, I suppose this is what real life is about after abuse; sometimes these things will just happen and you either have to accept it and move with it or stay indoors and avoid people forever (which is what I've been doing up until now). Feel better for it, it's just odd when it happens and there's no obvious reason.
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(((((Tupp)))))
What those teens did to you was so......
cruel.
Little Lord of the Fly monsters....
::shaking fist at them::
Clueless little bastards.
You juts keep reaching out, and making space for chosen family.
Even when it's not easy: )
::nodding::
Light
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Thank you, Lighter :)
I've thought about it a lot over the last few days and suddenly my problems with friendships seem to make more sense. I can get now why I'm so passive in relationships and why I tend to fall in with others plans and don't assert myself. I can also see why I feel I can never disagree or speak out in a friendship (I'm sure that's to do with my mum as well), and funnily enough there have been other times in my life when entire groups of people have just stopped returning my calls, although not in such a direct way as that incident was.
So I've rebooked a get together for next week; I had arranged to do it on a day that doesn't really suit me but I called to see if we could change it and we can, all good. This is with a lady who offers to meet closer to me alternate weeks so it isn't one person doing all the driving - considerate and fair, which is good and something/someone I need to be around :)
I've also made an effort to meet up with some other home educators in the area; nothing definite yet but there are emails moving around and it's just a matter of time until that happens - stepping in the right direction :)
I've also decided to try and see triggers as useful things that help. I've always been so scared of them because I find the emotions so hard to cope with. But I can see now how they can show you that something is wrong or isn't fixed and then I can fix it once I figure out what's going on. So I'm going to try and think of them as good things rather than bad.
Thank you for all your input and responses, it really means a lot (and helps a lot) xx
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Yup, Tup:
The triggers are like arrows pointing to something that needs attention, huh?
And speaking up about our needs and feelings is something we just have to wrap our minds around, and stop thinking of as world war PD. It's just normal give take ebb and flow in healthy relationships, and people deserve and need to know what's going on in other people's heads in order to relate in a healthy manner.
Sure, it's hard. It feels alien, but the more we do it the easier it gets. The more we realize the adrenaline dumps are just old pd junk we can leave behind, it opens us up to replace with something else.
Something better.
It's painful and any growth takes time.....
if there was no discomfort, we wouldn't be moved to make changes, right?
The discomfort and pain are simply messengers, and I'm glad you've identified the triggers as such. Yay.
I guess we begin to really trust we won't be swallowed by irrational pd insanity again if we put boundaries in place, and defend them appropriately at the first sign of trouble.
PD's start by pushing little boundaries, and if we allow it, they move up to a bigger boundary transgression. If we trust ourselves.... we get better at relating with others without so much stress, and doubt, and fear. We say NO to the pd's, and have room for better things, even if those things don't feel quite right. IF we hang in there, they become familiar, and what becomes familiar becomes habit and what becomes habit becomes pleasure.
Yes.
Light
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I get it, Tupp. So well.
And I think the flood of tears after the trigger is a GOOD thing.
It's like healing.
And it's proof how the past is interfering with the present (during which you're NOT being treated cruelly).
And you SEE the connection.
All that points so powerfully to you being underway in a true healing process.
You're doing GREAT.
Hops
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Well I had an adventure in making friends today, posted about it. :) I did something out of my comfort zone and it was almost a car accident.. but still a good break from my rut.
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BRAVO on that, Boat!
It's all practice, but you finally just went out and had yourself some human company.
Next time just tell him, I have to hold your phone if you're driving. Done. (And stick to it...
ain't worth dying for...)
So happy to hear about that. Friendship is the best. I really miss my gay-guy friend
I had in grad school.
Hops
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Well I had an adventure in making friends today, posted about it. :) I did something out of my comfort zone and it was almost a car accident.. but still a good break from my rut.
Well done, G :) Sorry, have neglected this thread as bit - other things going on :)
Just wanted to post one of my thoughts/realisations. For a long time now I've noticed that when someone asks me to do something I don't want to do or can't do I get angry and defensive because they didn't know I wouldn't want/be able to do it (if you see what I mean). I didn't understand that, people can't read minds and until they ask they won't know so my reactions didn't make sense to me. I also can't/won't show this anger (because I know it's not rational) but feel I have to come up with 'good enough' excuse to get out of it, which I often don't. So I end up doing things and seeing people that I don't want to, simply because I don't understand why I feel the way I do and don't know how to cope with it.
Anyway - I've kept watching myself in this cycle and I've come to the conclusion that I'm so frightened/worried/anxious not to displease anyone that I think the fact that I might need to (by saying no) makes me feel angry - like I'm being forced to do something that feels terribly wrong. Sounds silly, but I think that's the key to this particular problem. Need to keep reminding myself that (a) not everyone reacts to a no the way my mum used to and (b) if they do it's their problem to deal with not mine.
Next stage to work on in the 'being able to interact with people' category. Just wanted to share :)
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I'm so frightened/worried/anxious not to displease anyone that I think the fact that I might need to (by saying no) makes me feel angry - like I'm being forced
What a fantastic insight, Tupp.
This will release more and more internal pressure...
oh I just love it. Mature insights dazzle me.
Bravo bravo!
hugs
Hops
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I'm so frightened/worried/anxious not to displease anyone that I think the fact that I might need to (by saying no) makes me feel angry - like I'm being forced
What a fantastic insight, Tupp.
This will release more and more internal pressure...
oh I just love it. Mature insights dazzle me.
Bravo bravo!
hugs
Hops
Thanks, Hops. Do you find you slip between the old you and the new you? I just wondered, I find I do really well on my new healthier path for a while and then I slip back to my old habits. Takes a while, then I realise what I'm doing, then I pull myself back out again. Also realised my need for control is still really strong, but I dress it up as other things now. Need to be kinder on myself, I think, and my friends. I can be very judgemental, I'm trying to avoid doing that now.
Re your suggestions about groups - I think I may have found something via a campaign group I've been doing a little volunteering for. People of a similar mindset, but with practical tasks to do. So far, so good!
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Absolutely, Tupp...I slip back.
I do find that my lapses (which I don't expect to ever be entirely gone, perfection ain't possible) are shorter than they used to be.
I'll get lost in my own forest but I usually can see the light streaming, and still know it's there.
Sometimes there's no path but blundering will get me back to light anyway. That's grace. Or luck.
I know what you mean about the critical self-talk, and yes you DO need to be kinder to yourself!
I think being judgmental (which I was steeped in from my upbringing) is very similar to the feelings you have when you say No.
It's like...I want to recoil from or reject or hide from this person, and I can't just go and DO THAT, if it's what I sense is good for me.
I have to have a REASON. And it needs to be a big one.
On go the robes and out comes my inner judge.
Bleaaaggggghhhh. One of my least-favorite parts.
Ain't nobody I judge more harshly than myself though.
But that's too painful. So it's easier to distract myself from my own struggle to accept myself
and get busy judging, so I can focus on how I'm not accepting somebody else.
Once I spot it, I do thwack it as hard as I can.
And it doesn't dominate my thinking.
But when I feel unjustly treated...as by my Nboss...oh if he knew the thoughts I had
about him. (Of course, that wouldn't really matter to him, since Ns are impervious.)
I know how toxic it feels, to feel judgmental. And so I'm very very grateful that
it isn't often and it doesn't drive me. I know during my younger years when it did,
that it was a protective measure. Didn't make it any prettier inside, though.
Every single time I have a judgmental thought, if I just replace it with compassion,
it's gone. Poof.
xo
Hops
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Twoapenny, I've just read your post about your sometimes reaction to being asked to do something. I completely get that. My father's strong reactions have governed so much in my life. I was recently trying to explain to my child how my father would hold me responsible for other people's actions and it had a power over me generating huge amounts of anxiety and often angry bursts. E.g., is a stranger did something that in my youth would cause my father to rage at me, I can find myself getting angry. For years people be flummoxed by my reaction, telling me it had nothing to do with me. I was oblivious to what unconscious forces were at work until fairly recently.
I'm so glad you can now see that you are reacting to your mother and not the person standing in front of you. What a great relief.
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Absolutely, Tupp...I slip back.
I do find that my lapses (which I don't expect to ever be entirely gone, perfection ain't possible) are shorter than they used to be.
I'll get lost in my own forest but I usually can see the light streaming, and still know it's there.
Sometimes there's no path but blundering will get me back to light anyway. That's grace. Or luck.
I know what you mean about the critical self-talk, and yes you DO need to be kinder to yourself!
I think being judgmental (which I was steeped in from my upbringing) is very similar to the feelings you have when you say No.
It's like...I want to recoil from or reject or hide from this person, and I can't just go and DO THAT, if it's what I sense is good for me.
I have to have a REASON. And it needs to be a big one.
On go the robes and out comes my inner judge.
Bleaaaggggghhhh. One of my least-favorite parts.
Ain't nobody I judge more harshly than myself though.
But that's too painful. So it's easier to distract myself from my own struggle to accept myself
and get busy judging, so I can focus on how I'm not accepting somebody else.
Once I spot it, I do thwack it as hard as I can.
And it doesn't dominate my thinking.
But when I feel unjustly treated...as by my Nboss...oh if he knew the thoughts I had
about him. (Of course, that wouldn't really matter to him, since Ns are impervious.)
I know how toxic it feels, to feel judgmental. And so I'm very very grateful that
it isn't often and it doesn't drive me. I know during my younger years when it did,
that it was a protective measure. Didn't make it any prettier inside, though.
Every single time I have a judgmental thought, if I just replace it with compassion,
it's gone. Poof.
xo
Hops
Hey Hops, thank you for that. It helps to know that others also have to keep pushing and tweaking and getting back on the wagon.
I completely understand what you say about replacing judgement with compassion. I think my sticky point there is my difficulty with boundaries and my co-dependency stuff. If I understand or empathise, I also feel I need to leap in with both feet and solve everyone's situations. I've had to really work on that but I think I'm getting the hang of it now. I have found more recently that I am able to empathise with my mum, which I never thought I'd be able to do. But I wonder if I've got past enough of my own stuff now to be getting to a point where it doesn't hurt as much and I can see the terribly abused and frightened child that she was that grew into this terribly abusive and vindictive woman. I have always been frightened of getting caught in my mum's web again, and being very critical and judgemental of her helped to stop that from happening and kept me focused on what I needed to do for me, instead of thinking about her. But with other people I think it's more like you say, I focus on their imperfections to avoid accepting my own. So trying to be more accepting in general is high on my list now and, as you say, feeling able to say no without needing to have a huge reason or justification for doing so. Thank you xx
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Twoapenny, I've just read your post about your sometimes reaction to being asked to do something. I completely get that. My father's strong reactions have governed so much in my life. I was recently trying to explain to my child how my father would hold me responsible for other people's actions and it had a power over me generating huge amounts of anxiety and often angry bursts. E.g., is a stranger did something that in my youth would cause my father to rage at me, I can find myself getting angry. For years people be flummoxed by my reaction, telling me it had nothing to do with me. I was oblivious to what unconscious forces were at work until fairly recently.
I'm so glad you can now see that you are reacting to your mother and not the person standing in front of you. What a great relief.
Hi GS, yes, I completely understand what you are saying. I have a book, 'Healing the Shame That Binds You' by John Bradshaw, and it's the sort of self help book I find I get very different things from when I read it at different times, presumably because what I'm working on has changed and different things jump out at me. At the minute I'm finding his stuff about projection very useful, he talks about other people placing their shame onto someone else (usually an adult to a child in the scenarios he's talking about). It's really resonating at the minute, I can see how much of my mum's unresolved issues I simply took on as my own and just absorbed, and have now lived forty years by. It's very strange, but a situation can occur and I have an immediate reaction and it's definitely my mum reacting to it, not me. So I'm really working now on trying to have my own responses (sounds daft, I know). So I really understand about what say about reactions you have seeming out of context to others, they are experiencing it in a different way to you. It is odd how we can not notice things for so many years and then suddenly they're right in front of us.
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I LOVE that book. I used to read it almost every year, date my underlines and notes. Similar to you I found that different things jumped out at me each time I read it. In the late 80s, John Bradshaw had a television show. At the time I was involved with Al Anon having discovered my mother's alcoholism. Those two things were important openings into my journey. From Bradshaw I learned that I was indeed operating out of toxic shame but it would take me years and years to a) understand the depths of how debilitating that has been for me and b) to figure out what to do about it.
Your last sentence is right on. It never ceases to amaze me.
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I LOVE that book. I used to read it almost every year, date my underlines and notes. Similar to you I found that different things jumped out at me each time I read it. In the late 80s, John Bradshaw had a television show. At the time I was involved with Al Anon having discovered my mother's alcoholism. Those two things were important openings into my journey. From Bradshaw I learned that I was indeed operating out of toxic shame but it would take me years and years to a) understand the depths of how debilitating that has been for me and b) to figure out what to do about it.
Your last sentence is right on. It never ceases to amaze me.
Ah yes, the doing part is so much harder than the understanding part! A friend of mine says she found therapy quite destructive - someone takes you into a room, shows you your family are dysfunctional, shows you you're dysfunctional, shows you you married your husband because you have issues with your dad, took on your job because it satisfied some of your dysfunctional needs, raised your kids a certain way to get back at your mum - but then can't do anything about fixing any of it. I can see what she means; I feel better as a person since getting out of my family situation but the loneliness and uncertainty (not to mention the pain) along the way have been truly testing (and still are, at times). Sometimes it feels like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
But I think we all know if we feel unhappy at our core, I suppose different people deal with it in different ways and we all seem to be the sort that would rather uncover the grim stuff and deal with it, however hard it might be.
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Just one of my stream of consciousness rambles about something I noticed today and wanted to write down:
Today is quite busy in an at home way. We've been out a lot this week so lots of jobs at home haven't been done. I'm very tired, as is my boy, and I feel a bit under the weather. We've new bedroom furniture being delivered this afternoon so I've been cleaning and clearing out the old stuff ready for the new stuff to come.
I've been moaning and complaining to myself, endlessly berating everyone in my head, really being negative and almost causing arguments with myself, if that makes any sense. I actually stopped myself and said outloud "What the f are you doing, Tup?"
What I think is - there are lots of imperfections today, as lots hasn't been done. This, I always feel, leaves me feeling open to attack - if it's not perfect, someone's going to moan. This, in turn, I think makes me start berating everyone else, because everything would be perfect if other people helped me. That in turn makes me feel lonely and unloved and then it just excalates into this whole downward spiral. I don't think I'm thinking any of that on a conscious level, it just sort of feels like that's what's going on. It sort of links back to my earlier post as well, on how I have to criticise others because I feel bad when I say no. I think this is the same thing - I feel shockingly ashamed because things aren't perfect and then lash out at everyone else as if it's their fault (only I'm just lashing out in my head, I'm not actually talking to anyone).
So this focus, I suppose, is to stop letting myself feel ashamed for just being normal?
Just writing it down before I forget it!
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Twoapenny, I could have written that myself! It makes me giddy to see I am not alone. I really should be horrified that you are having such a terrible experience - it is truly horrible - but I am finding that by "witnessing" that crazy process and identifying it as coming from previous woundings, the behaviour is beginning to shift, ever so incrementally. Bit by bit, it is shifting.
Thank you for sharing. It touches me deeply.
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For some reason I'm remembering some woman from years ago (but not the exact situation) who taught me something, or who demonstrated...radically befriending yourself.
Maybe it was in a workshop, or something.
But she was modeling how literally and effortfully (at first) she would pause about situations and people, and always, always, check in with herself and respect what her own needs were. After some very intentional laborious and jerky practice for a long time, it became second nature.
And then she went around looking serene not because she was a good actor, but because it was real. She was at peace in her own company, and loved other people, but was fine either way. So she weathered a lot of fears and disappointments way way easier.
xo
Hops
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Twoapenny, I could have written that myself! It makes me giddy to see I am not alone. I really should be horrified that you are having such a terrible experience - it is truly horrible - but I am finding that by "witnessing" that crazy process and identifying it as coming from previous woundings, the behaviour is beginning to shift, ever so incrementally. Bit by bit, it is shifting.
Thank you for sharing. It touches me deeply.
GS, thanks, I'm really glad it has hel[ped, it's what I like about this board, that we can pool our resources and help each other out. It's funny, isn't it, how you suddenly notice something and, as you say, once you've seen it, it starts to move.
I am making a really concerted effort now NOT TO BE LIKE MY MUM! She is so meticulous (and I want to say at this point I'm not criticising that in anyone else, we're all different, but I am naturally a scatty mare), she makes endless lists and everything is always done. She never forgets anything, never fails to think ahead, never runs out of anything, has never had to use kitchen towel in the bathroom because she ran out of loo roll. And I can constantly hear the endless nickpicking in my head of every single thing I haven't done or haven't done properly and it does make me feel constantly ashamed. And I didn't realise before that I felt so ashamed about not doing perfectly a load of stuff that isn't important to me. I've already done the important things this morning - I made my son a good breakfast (we used to get a cup of tea and a biscuit), we've had a game of Scrabble, read a story and now he's gone back to sleep (he had a bad night so was really tired). I tucked him up and told him I loved him and now he's having a snooze. I did all that and I feel happy :) The dishes are still unwashed and I'm not dressed and yet I'm sitting here writing about my FEELINGS!!! It feels really good. Thank you :)
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For some reason I'm remembering some woman from years ago (but not the exact situation) who taught me something, or who demonstrated...radically befriending yourself.
Maybe it was in a workshop, or something.
But she was modeling how literally and effortfully (at first) she would pause about situations and people, and always, always, check in with herself and respect what her own needs were. After some very intentional laborious and jerky practice for a long time, it became second nature.
And then she went around looking serene not because she was a good actor, but because it was real. She was at peace in her own company, and loved other people, but was fine either way. So she weathered a lot of fears and disappointments way way easier.
xo
Hops
Wow, Hops, that is so spot on and so timely! I am really seeing at the minute how much I react to things from my mum's point of view. I bumped into someone yesterday I hadn't seen for ten years. Our sons are the same age so when they were small we bumped into each other at toddler groups and so on, as they've got older we've not gone to the same things. Instead of thinking "Oh how lovely to see her, how are the kids" etc this list went through my head of everything she'd be criticising as she looked at me - scruffy clothes (I'd been gardening), mad hair (it had rained and my hair goes bonkers when it gets wet), clapped out car (have always driven old bangers). And every word of that is what my mum would have said about me. And I bet you that lady didn't think any of that, she probably went away thinking "oh how lovely to see her, I'm glad her son's well!" And of course all of that goes through your head in about a split second so I just sort of stood there with my mouth open and nodded at the right moments.
So - I guess slow it all down? I think I panic? So a deep breath and a moment to pause while I gather my thoughts? More to practise. I'm enjoying this bit, though? It's a bit like learning how to ride your bike and that great bit when you realise no-one's holding on and you're doing it on your own.
On a slightly different note, I'm back in contact with my estranged sister so I've been hearing a bit about the madness within the family - not much, I don't want to know too much, but it's amazed me that I've changed so much in the last ten years and none of them have changed at all. As you know I live just across the road from them. My mum had a big gathering recently, I've heard, so all my aunts, uncles, cousins and old family friends were there, they all know I live across the road and none of them called or enquired about popping round (or even mentioned that they would be in the area, I'm in contact with a couple of them). And what was lovely was that I didn't feel sad, or angry, or rejected (which I would have done in the past) - I just felt it showed I'd done the right thing by getting out and it made me glad I did it.
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Something else I noticed yesterday - I panic massively at the thought of being around people I know?! Went out feeling good - saw someone I knew - turned into a wreck and went home feeling awful. Have never noticed that before, yet now I have, can see it happens a lot. Was invited out for someone's birthday yesterday - almost said no because it's a local pub and people I know will be there. If it had been somewhere I'd never been to before I'd have been fine about it. Weird!
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Another thing! It's all revelations for me at the moment!
Had a couple of situations yesterday where I didn't get the responses I had hoped for and I felt really angry. Thought about it a lot as my anger was very unjustified and, as I calmed down, I reread the responses that I'd reacted to, there's nothing wrong with them, they just weren't falling over themselves to do what I'd suggested.
Realised as the day went on that I had percieved it as a criticism, or as something that I had got wrong (ie - made a suggestion - it wasn't the right one - therefore I'm wrong and that's bad). Also realised that they're situations that can be worked on and adjusted if necessary so nothing set in stone anyway - again not something I'm used to as conversations always tended to get shut down very quickly.
So the weekend's lesson - no need to over react to someone not being excited about my idea, it isn't a character flaw in me to not understand everyone else's innermost thoughts and feelings! And no need to think anything is the final word - there is space for compromise and most people are happy to talk and work things out.
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I so love your posts. I get so encouraged seeing how you catch yourself reacting to the internalized negative N parent voices. I am beginning to do that and it gives me such great hope. I see at long last how seeing how others interact them me through my N lens has lead to a misinterpretation that has been damaging to me. It may be too late for some long lost friendships that I long to reconnect, but it is not too late for developing future friendships. Your posts give me great hope.
I love reading that you were able to learn that relatives were at your mother's and didn't call on you and yet you were able to let it go. I am just a beginning to let go of the hurt and resentment from not being included by extended family after my parent's deaths. It was so painful at first, but now I am slowly finding letting go of the hurt to be freeing. So much baggage is going with it all.
I totally connect with your post on "responses". I always take things personally. I'm so impressed that you are looking at it with different eyes now and seeing it from a new perspective. I'm right behind you. It sounds so freeing.
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I so love your posts. I get so encouraged seeing how you catch yourself reacting to the internalized negative N parent voices. I am beginning to do that and it gives me such great hope. I see at long last how seeing how others interact them me through my N lens has lead to a misinterpretation that has been damaging to me. It may be too late for some long lost friendships that I long to reconnect, but it is not too late for developing future friendships. Your posts give me great hope.
I love reading that you were able to learn that relatives were at your mother's and didn't call on you and yet you were able to let it go. I am just a beginning to let go of the hurt and resentment from not being included by extended family after my parent's deaths. It was so painful at first, but now I am slowly finding letting go of the hurt to be freeing. So much baggage is going with it all.
I totally connect with your post on "responses". I always take things personally. I'm so impressed that you are looking at it with different eyes now and seeing it from a new perspective. I'm right behind you. It sounds so freeing.
Hi GS,
Thanks for writing that, I'm really glad you find some of it helps you, I always find it helps me to know that someone else is getting something out of it (particularly when I quite often post just because I need to get it straight in my own head) so thank you for doing that. Although I'm hoping what I'm going to write next won't put you off!
After quite a few weeks of noticing small things and just generally observing stuff and getting a clearer picture of myself, I suppose, something happened this weekend. I'm not sure whether to call it a meltdown or an epiphany, to be honest, maybe the two are similar things anyway? But I realised, to my absolute horror, that I have simply replaced my toxic family with toxic friends and that I'm recreating or reliving the same situation I had with my mum and other family members ten or so years ago.
I know a lot of people who call when they want something, but not at any other time. I have lost count now of the number of 'friends' who take months to return my calls, if they call back at all. Not one person helps me out, visits (unless they want something) or spends any time with my son. None of them 'hear' me - if I say I can't do something because I'm too tired, or it will be too much to cope with, I get guilt tripped into agreeing - no-one offers to help or just says "Alright mate, no problem, we'll hook up another time". When I was first trying to disengage from my family, one of the hardest things to stop them doing was turning up and parking their backsides on my sofa for hours while they whinged and moaned. Apart from it being tedious, it also stopped me from getting on with my day. After numerous requests were ignored, I eventually had to lie and tell them I'd gone back to work and would be working from home. Even that didn't stop them completely, and I find myself in the same situation now with 'friends', as I find myself having to lie about being out or being busy because simply saying "I've got stuff to do, no you can't come over" isn't good enough.
I still feel like I'm invisible, and I can see now that I've just put myself in the same situation with a different group of people. I have no idea why I've done it, why I've not noticed it before or why it's suddenly become so crystal clear that I've actually felt physically sick all weekend. But that is where I'm at right now. I feel like I've been run over - so exhausted and so stupid to have been caught up like this again. At least now I've seen it I can do something about it.
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Ugh.
Maybe it's become crystal clear because it is aaallllll about to change for you. Read the post river made about new friends on my thread. I totally think that might be what's going . Why not?
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Ugh.
Maybe it's become crystal clear because it is aaallllll about to change for you. Read the post river made about new friends on my thread. I totally think that might be what's going . Why not?
Hi GS,
Have read it and, yes, I think you might be right. The emotional pull just isn't there now. I don't know what on earth I've been doing. But I do feel stronger and more resilient. Weird, I can't really put it into words to well. But I think it does bode well for the future. Thanks xx
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I am so glad to read that you feel stronger and more resilient. Such good news.
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Hi Tupp--
I just have this to offer, fwiw--
It's absolutely totally NORMAL to repeat patterns learned in childhood. Normal normal normal!
The great thing is that as you spot them, you can "set it on the table and back away slowly..."
Sure, it's aggravating to spot yourself tripping over the same log. But really, you're young, and you have lots of years of nimble dancing ahead. Eventually it'll just be "how you walk."
I believe you'll wind up just automatically steering past the familiar force fields with people that are toxic, and it won't be effortful to choose people and be drawn to them--who are wholesome and positive for you. Like any new positive thing, it just takes repeated exposure and practice.
That is does feel effortful and difficult now does not mean it won't become easier. It will!
That's all I wanted to say...I heard your discouragement.
love,
Hops
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I am so glad to read that you feel stronger and more resilient. Such good news.
Thank you, GS :)
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Hi Tupp--
I just have this to offer, fwiw--
It's absolutely totally NORMAL to repeat patterns learned in childhood. Normal normal normal!
The great thing is that as you spot them, you can "set it on the table and back away slowly..."
Sure, it's aggravating to spot yourself tripping over the same log. But really, you're young, and you have lots of years of nimble dancing ahead. Eventually it'll just be "how you walk."
I believe you'll wind up just automatically steering past the familiar force fields with people that are toxic, and it won't be effortful to choose people and be drawn to them--who are wholesome and positive for you. Like any new positive thing, it just takes repeated exposure and practice.
That is does feel effortful and difficult now does not mean it won't become easier. It will!
That's all I wanted to say...I heard your discouragement.
love,
Hops
Thanks, Hops, I hear ya! I know what you mean, it's just sometimes the enormity of it all still really gets me. It was a bit like finding out someone had been cheating on me and I'd had absolutely no idea, you know? Complete shock. But it's fine, adjusting, settling down now. All good. Thank you :)
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Well I've had a very 'at home' week this week, I just needed (and still need) time to think and get myself together at the minute.
Something I have been thinking about is my need to be rescued from my life. I seem to have spent my whole life trapped in situations that are made by other people, hoping and praying that someone will notice and come and lift me out of it. I used to sit by the side of the road after my dad died (I was about 8), hoping to see his car come round the corner and find out it was all a bit mistake. I feel a bit like I'm still doing that now.
I think what I need to do is to stop waiting for someone else to come and get me. I want to try and develop myself creatively - through music, writing and books, and to spend time making my surroundings at home more pleasant and comfortable. I also want to be a bit more laid back about money and to start spending it on paying people to help with the garden and jobs around the house, rather than trying (and failing) to do it all myself. I really do need to rest more, but also have more fun and spend more time doing things I enjoy and find fulfilling.
My son is not doing too well at the minute and the response has been what I expected - one friend (who I do appreciate enormously) has offered to help out and has been checking in every day to see how we're doing, everyone else has run for the hills. So I really want to focus now on building myself up, rather than hoping that other people will help plug some of the holes that are in me.
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My thoughts are with you. I so know the feeling of looking and hoping for help to come. I hope you find the strength and courage to carry forward but I am also glad that you will rest as well. I think I'll share so more thoughts a bit later on.
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My thoughts are with you. I so know the feeling of looking and hoping for help to come. I hope you find the strength and courage to carry forward but I am also glad that you will rest as well. I think I'll share so more thoughts a bit later on.
Thanks, GS. Just realised a typo in my post, the bit about my dad should have read that I was about 8, not sure how I managed to get a smiley face in there instead!
Nearly time for bed, and I've got through my first weekend of trying to focus on me and not fret about everyone else. I haven't called anyone or been out anywhere, we've stayed home and I've been cleaning out cupboards and getting organised for next week. Have rejigged my money a bit and freed up enough to get a gardener in to sort my overgrown jungle out and to pay a babysitter so I can go to a meditation class next week. A couple of people texted wanting to come round but they fall into the 'don't do anything to help and only call when they want something' camp that I am trying to break away from now so I told them both we were busy. Odd how it feels wrong of me not to be available but I want to stick to this and make some changes now.
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I think what I need to do is to stop waiting for someone else to come and get me.
This is such a powerful realization, Tupp. I'm excited for you and inspired too.
I think you got it. I've been thinking/working on the same issues in my life.
I think I trained myself to experience despair at the idea of being alone, and now,
I'm intentionally re-embracing it. I've always loved solitude but over the years of
caretaking, I lost some of that joy. Now I'm working to delight in my own company again.
There's a difference between solitude with purpose and isolation.
I find the latter is an enemy, but embracing the former means when I do
"go forth" I find company more easily. Maybe it's because when I tend to my own
needs, I am subtly telegraphing something different in company, or about company.
Dunno if that makes sense but I like your sense of purpose about making
your life happier.
And I'm very very sorry your son is having a rough time. I know that means
you are too.
hugs
Hops
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Twoapenny - "odd how it feels wrong f me...."
Going out on a limb here and dipping into my own experience to wonder out loud if it feels wrong because you were trained to put everyone else first above yourself at all costs to yourself? So that it would feel "wrong" to protect yourself from leeching others who don't give back?l give and take is a vital life process but there must be an exchange for it to be life giving - right.?
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I think what I need to do is to stop waiting for someone else to come and get me.
This is such a powerful realization, Tupp. I'm excited for you and inspired too.
I think you got it. I've been thinking/working on the same issues in my life.
I think I trained myself to experience despair at the idea of being alone, and now,
I'm intentionally re-embracing it. I've always loved solitude but over the years of
caretaking, I lost some of that joy. Now I'm working to delight in my own company again.
There's a difference between solitude with purpose and isolation.
I find the latter is an enemy, but embracing the former means when I do
"go forth" I find company more easily. Maybe it's because when I tend to my own
needs, I am subtly telegraphing something different in company, or about company.
Dunno if that makes sense but I like your sense of purpose about making
your life happier.
And I'm very very sorry your son is having a rough time. I know that means
you are too.
hugs
Hops
Thanks, Hops, for you kind and knowledgeable words. It really means a lot.
I don't mind my own company; in fact I'm the sort of person that needs a bit of quiet and downtime in my life. I think the thing that bothers me is that I've got myself out of kilter and filled my life with people that call when I can be of use to them but don't ring just for a chat or help out when my situation's difficult. I find that hard, but I'm trying to focus on doing more things for myself and focusing on the people who aren't like that - saying no a lot until I do have some free time (and energy!) and then choosing who I want to spend that time with. It's all learning, isn't it? On the right path and all that.
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Twoapenny - "odd how it feels wrong f me...."
Going out on a limb here and dipping into my own experience to wonder out loud if it feels wrong because you were trained to put everyone else first above yourself at all costs to yourself? So that it would feel "wrong" to protect yourself from leeching others who don't give back?l give and take is a vital life process but there must be an exchange for it to be life giving - right.?
Oh gosh, GS, absolutely, I still find it very difficult to even vaguely consider myself before anyone else. It feels like driving the car on the wrong side of the road! But I am trying.
I rang a gardener today and asked him to come over and sort my very untidy garden out for me. That is quite a big deal for me. 1 - I'm admitting I need help and I can't do anything on my own (very scary) 2 - I'm spending money on 'non-essential' items - also very scary. 3 I want the garden looking nice so that I can sit out in and and relax - me, me, me! 4 I'm risking someone coming over and then going away saying a hundred bad things about me being lazy, not coping, sitting on my arse all day. That's not true but I know so many people who would say that if they knew I was getting someone in to do the work. Crazy but I still find this hard to deal with.
I also bought a book on sewing projects yesterday (non-essential spending again). I really want to learn how to sew but never get round to doing anything because I'm always running around after other people. It's a nice little book, it starts with easy projects like cushion covers and bags and works up to dresses and skirts. I really want to find something I can do at home that gives me something nice at the end of it, you know? So they're my two big steps so far this week :)
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Another thought has occurred to me today. My old group of friends are all heavy drinkers and/or focused on having a good time. I have found it very hard to extricate myself from them, or to be myself around them.
When we were kids, the only hobby my mum and step-dad has was drinking. I don't ever remember a time when my mum wasn't drunk on a regular basis, and it got a lot worse after he moved in. The only thing either of them ever seemed genuinely pleased about and proud of was the amount I could drink. There was never any encouragement re school or hobbies, but drinking was definitely part of the fabric of our family.
I was a very heavy drinker and drug user for years, only really stopping completely when I got pregnant with my son. I've pretty much stayed off it all since; I've had a few drunken nights over the years but even those don't happen any more.
I think the old me was a fake - just a pretend personality who was there to deal with the abuse and try and avoid any hassle. I think the real me is very different - much more conventional and home loving, happy baking, preferring conversation to getting drunk and falling over. What I find hard is leaving behind the old me friends. I feel like I don't want them any more. I also feel like I don't want my 'circumstantial' friends - people I only know because our kids do similar things, but who I have nothing in common with.
It's funny but it feels like a lonely place, but also an exciting one, because things might change now?
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Perhaps it is lonely because you are aware that you moving on, leaving behind the old with no vision of what the new will be. That takes such courage but it is necessary in order to leave the broken behind and allow the whole in.
So glad that you are turning the corner on doing something's for yourself. I venture to suggest that the gardening and sewing are grander than just yourself, they are creating and at minimal those creations benefit those who encounter them, especially the garden. Please let us know how the experience with the gardener goes.
(Taking care of yourself isn't selfish, it is grounding and it is necessary. It will all, at minimum, give life anew to you and your child.)
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Perhaps it is lonely because you are aware that you moving on, leaving behind the old with no vision of what the new will be. That takes such courage but it is necessary in order to leave the broken behind and allow the whole in.
So glad that you are turning the corner on doing something's for yourself. I venture to suggest that the gardening and seeing are grander than just yourself, they are creating and at minimal those creations benefit those who encounter them, especially the garden. Please let us know how the experience with the gardener goes.
(Taking care of yourself isn't selfish, it is grounding and it is necessary. It will all, at minimum, give life anew to you and your child.)
Thanks, GS. The gardener came to have a look at the work. He was quite rude and I wasn't impressed with him, to be honest. But I only need a morning's work doing - it's a small garden and it just needs a good tidy up. So he's coming one day next week to get it done, if I need anything doing again I'll get someone else in to do it! But the main thing is it's some help, it's one less thing for me to have to do. I've also called a window cleaner and a handy man to get a few other jobs done. Once I'm on top of the situation it should be easier to keep things ticking over better.
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So glad for you. It is much easier to maintain when things are brought up to snuff. I hope the rude gardener is good and fast and maybe even has a change of attitude.
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So glad for you. It is much easier to maintain when things are brought up to snuff. I hope the rude gardener is good and fast and maybe even has a change of attitude.
Hi GS, thanks! I'm starting to think getting help in wasn't such a good idea! Waited in for a window cleaner on Friday who never showed up and hasn't returned my call, the gardener has changed the day and time four times now and each time seems to want to spend half an hour on the phone talking about it. I am getting the chance to practise my new assertiveness skills!
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So glad for you. It is much easier to maintain when things are brought up to snuff. I hope the rude gardener is good and fast and maybe even has a change of attitude.
Hi GS, thanks! I'm starting to think getting help in wasn't such a good idea! Waited in for a window cleaner on Friday who never showed up and hasn't returned my call, the gardener has changed the day and time four times now and each time seems to want to spend half an hour on the phone talking about it. I am getting the chance to practise my new assertiveness skills!
Well what a nightmare day it's been! Message to Twoapenny - trust your instincts, say no and don't think 'oh this will do for now'! Things I have said to myself so many times already but I still don't follow my own advice!
Gardener turned up 40 minutes late after changing arrangements four times. Then proceeded to spend half an hour unloading his van, telling me all about his weekend and drinking coffee - bear in mind he's on an hourly rate. I checked the time for when he actually started working and left him to it.
My garden is small - less than ten feet square front and back. It is just overgrown - grass needed cutting, weeds needed removing, some things needed pruning. He'd been round to have a look last week and I'd said I just wanted it tidy and it was just a one off job. I didn't want it redesigning or landscaping or anything like that.
He kept offering to do other jobs that I hadn't asked for, I kept saying no, he kept arguing saying it would help me more (love how he knows what would help me better than I do). I kept hearing him talking on his phone, would look into the garden to see he wasn't there and after two hours I went to see how much he'd done. I couldn't believe how little he'd managed; he'd cut about six square feet of grass and weeded one flower bed.
I didn't have the nerve to go and send him on his way then; with hindsight I should have. I did go out and tell him that we were going out and that I'd need him to stop just after 5pm, thereby capping him at four hours. I told him I didn't have any more money to pay him for more than four hours work so he knew if he stayed longer (as we really were going out; if he'd been on time he'd have finished before we left) that he wouldn't get paid.
He started pressing for a date to come and do the rest of the work; again I should have told him no way but I just said I'd be in touch and left it at that. I kept checking on him for the rest of the time and he carried on chatting on his phone, stopped to eat a sandwich and was doing things that really weren't necessary, like redigging a bed that was weed free or straightening edges that didn't need straightening (whilst the back garden was completely untouched and still looked like a jungle).
Locked the house up at five; he was loading all the rubbish into his vehicle. I'd said several times that I could take it to the dump myself (it's just up the road) but he kept insisting that he'd save me the bother. I went out to his car to pay him; he took the money and then told me it was extra to take the rubbish to the dump and that he needed petrol money for turning up!
I was calm initially; I said that wasn't what we'd agreed and that I'd said several times I was happy to clear the rubbish myself. He'd said he'd told me it would cost extra and that I couldn't take the rubbish myself because they were his bags. He then said the hourly rate was just for labour and that petrol and rubbish disposal were extra and tried to fleece me for another £15! Bearing in mind he'd only worked three of the four hours he was there, he lost an hour in faffing around on the phone and stopping for lunch.
I told him he was a very rude man and walked away and left him to it. Fortunately the house was already locked up and my son was already in the car so I could just get in and drive off. I felt sick and was almost crying; as much through anger as through anything else. He'd blatantly tried to rip me off and then tried to pretend I was the one doing him over.
We were out for about three hours and I was worried that I'd get home and find all the rubbish dumped in the garden or a horrible message on my answerphone. All was clear, though, he's taken it away and left me alone so that was a relief.
What a horrible little man and why on earth do people just try to get money they haven't earnt?!