Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ales2 on June 30, 2016, 11:40:21 AM
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I went to a consultation with a hypnotherapist yesterday. Very nice guy, but not the right fit.
I picked him based on his blogs and his POV on achievement and moving on in life. Problem for me was that he wanted to get too much into "core issues" which while maybe a therapeutically correct direction, I was hoping for a more superficial approach. Sounds odd to want the superficial approach, but I did not want to re-open old wounds, felt I'd done enough of that. I had hoped he could focus more on the 20% obstacles I deal with that have consistently derailed me from achieving the 110% life I want. I was hoping for help with productivity (he specializes in overcoming procrastination), completions and breakthroughs (from renting to owning, from single to married, from writer to author, debt to investing, anxiety to peace etc) .
The 20% are my own shortcomings, of my own doing and some are my responsive wounds from an invalidating, NMother, which is assertiveness, staying small to be accepted in her skewed world, people pleasing - sometimes that works, sometime a trap that causes other problems) relationship avoidance when dealing with certain kinds of people etc. Attracting bosses who marginalize, belittle and deprive me of opportunities like NMother did.
I had no expectation of him understanding the NMother dynamic, just the obvious issues or symptoms like people pleasing and assertiveness and subconscious reactions to toxic or belittling people. I didn't think hypnosis would change some of these core issues, just maybe alleviate anxiety with things like being more assertive or staying small, so I could move on.
I hope that makes sense.
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Ales,
If you read this book you can do it yourself. At no cost.
The key is Chapter 9, "Autosuggestion." For the first time, I understood why hypnosis works.
https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Your-Subconscious-Mind/dp/0139614826/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467306870&sr=8-1&keywords=the+wisdom+of+your+subconscious+mind (https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Your-Subconscious-Mind/dp/0139614826/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467306870&sr=8-1&keywords=the+wisdom+of+your+subconscious+mind)
I found it absolutely amazing. It's now 40 years old, but I believe not dated...
love,
Hops
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Thanks Hops for this suggestion.
My guess is that for me, part of success in a therapeutic process comes from validation from another human being, someone I trust and respect that wants to see me do well. Thus, do-it-yourself self improvement doesn't have the same effect. I can believe in myself to about 80% but when constantly barraged with the remaining 20% of negativity I crumble.
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I understand, Ales. You deserve validation and support.
I was hoping a DIY approach might help...but maybe this therapist is the one! And hypnotheraphy was a lifesaver for me (with a psychologist who specialized). Good luck.
hugs
Hops
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Hi Hops- You might have misunderstood my post - I appreciate your book and suggestions, was just stating the reason why I think I have bad therapy experiences in the past.
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Not to worry, Ales--I did feel appreciated!
I understand how frustrating it's been to not click with the right therapist, and at the same time, how much that validation and support matters.
Really hope this new approach will work for you.
I think hypnosis is miraculous.
Hoping for you,
Hops
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Today was hellish.
I woke up this morning after having a nightmare where a previous boss hired another co-worker (from an entirely different different job) and lavished all sorts of promotions and praise on her while literally shoving me out of the way and interrupting and ignoring everything I said. Then somehow, we are all three in a car together and I am in the backseat. The other co-worker (who was mean, rude, selfish, dismissive and belittling in teh previous job) is in the passenger seat. Somehow, I manage to undo her seatbelt and shove her out of the moving vehicle. She gets hurt, but survives, kind of like working with this boss, everybody gets hurt, but survives.
What kind of weird, subconscious meaning is behind this nightmare? I was shaken all day by it. It tells me these people hurt me enough for me to want to hurt them back. Ouch. That is not my nature at all. My m.o. is more the resentful diplomat type. :shock: :?
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Those are really hard feelings...resentment is vicious. I felt it so much toward Nboss during my job that it was poisoning me.
Envy is another (the undeserving coworker being rewarded).
Powerful dream, Ales. And respect to you for paying attention to it.
Please don't be spooked by my mentioning this...because I have spotted these things in myself from time to time. But envy can be associated with narcissistic stuff. Feeling intense envy, coupled with rage (which your dream-self was grappling with)...might be a signal of N traits to reckon with.
I've written here before about how I've found in myself at times, particularly during periods of great stress, what I call "Nspots." Types of thinking or reactions that if I looked closely enough to name them, I'd call narcissistic traits. They were modeled for me powerfully and they're in there. I think we all have the capacity for these to various degrees, and children of narcissists can be especially alarmed by any evidence of them.
One is resentment (cousin of envy). Another is entitlement (not frequent any more but I'd catch a train of thought on a parallel track to the resentment that fit the term). I found a trick that works really well to shut it down. Has been a good while since I've had that kind of thought...but here's the tip.
If a description of any of your trains of thought or feelings about another person could be started off with the phrase "How dare he..." or "How dare she..." -- that's a strong clue to entitlement, imo. (I made this up, but it feels true to me.)
When I was struggling with intense resentment (my Nmother, then Nboss)...that stuff was swirling. I was so horrified by it years back that I asked my therapist over and over, am I a narcissist? Mercifully, I finally believed him. I'm not. (He said, the pure agony you feel at even the prospect of occasional N-ish thoughts? It's the opposite.)
But I WAS raised by one. And he said it's not uncommon to internalize some of the damage by now and then manifesting some of the traits.
It can give you chills to "Nspot." I told my T I was playing whack-a-mole with anything in myself that reminded me of narcissism. He said, and that's it. The difference is that when you experience moments of that toxicity in yourself, you WHACK it. You name it, own it, and wrestle with it until you find your way to a healthier way of feeling.
Otherwise, I think something like Buddhism, or anything that emphasizes compassion, is the kind of practice that heals that stuff. I even managed compassion for Nboss and Nbrother at times. By the end of Nmom's life, I was all the way there for her.
Lastly, with powerful or disturbing dreams I always remember what a professor said once--"There is no such thing as a nightmare. All dreams are your subconscious processing hopes or fears, and trying to signal you to take care of your inner life."
Your dream showed you envy and rage and entitlement, and where they can go (inside, not that you'd act them out) if they remain unhealed.
Good for you for noticing. Good for you for naming. Good for you for how disturbed you felt by it. (I don't know but I wonder whether severe narcissists would even have such a dream or much less, be so perturbed by it....)
Hops
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Thanks Hops for your very interesting thoughts and analysis of my nightmare. I do think there are some N traits in there and when I recognize them it concerns me and I go back to the low self esteem me. I think that being treated unfairly (its not just that she got the promotions and the praise, he actively diminished me, even if she had not been there he would be a horrible boss to work for) is universal - i.e not simply an N trait, when people are cooperative adn seek win-win situations (I achieve my work objectives, company pays me and gives more responsibilities for me to contribute more, thus earn more) the abusers become very obvious very quickly and the win/win types can find a new position quickly, probably because they excel at their job, without waiting for approval from the boss.
When re-reading it, what I found was that the co-worker is actually a victim too, she is only hurt (by me) because of how she was treated by the NBoss and my reaction to that treatment. He is in a sense, using her, just as he is abusing me and in the end, the pain is directed not at him but at her. Its like he deflects and protects himself. Now THAT is the part that is really sinister here.
Your suggestions were great Hops, thank you. It was also helpful to post here and acknowledge these feelings because I know I would get positive feedback and not feel judged. Posting here made them feel less scary and more normal considering what I have been though over time and time again. My sense is there would only be something truly wrong with me if I acted on these feelings or seemed comfortable with them. So, I think I am good, they were subconscious thoughts, not thoughts I chose to think about.
Thank you!
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You're welcome!
Now, how do we get your old Nboss and my old Nboss together in a locked cage?
:mrgreen:
Then again, Ns deserve actual compassion. Like tigers do. From a very safe distance and without any delusions about their nature.
(Pretty cool that on review, you discovered compassion for the coworker and also recognized how projectioN and maNipulation were parts of that scene...)
Hops
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There are days like today when I wonder what issue I have with other people that I cannot see. Its something about me, probably not related to being the child of a Narcissist but something I do repetitively that subtly turns people against me (without doing things like lying, cheating, manipulating, not that stuff - those traits would be obvious). Not sure what it is...wish I knew and could ask some of these people what they see that I don't. (i.e in many instances, I can't ask because they will not be honest with me, some of it is their filter, as much as it my actions/words/attitude).
Ive seen so many co-workers from this one job go on to enormous success, and I feel that I am/was just as smart, talented, focused and creative (in the TV writing sense) as they are. Somehow, this one boss I worked for is very powerful in TV and I know she served as a reference for all these people and yet not for me. I have to feel I did something to deserve this treatment, we did not get along perfectly, but I have to wonder what those folks did that I didn't that made them her ally and why she promoted them and not me.
She has always given me a glowing recommendation as long as it was not in TV. I was the only one of the six people I am referring to that was in TV dept. and yet, they all got into TV from the feature side of our company and now are thriving.
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There are days like today when I wonder what issue I have with other people that I cannot see. Its something about me, probably not related to being the child of a Narcissist but something I do repetitively that subtly turns people against me (without doing things like lying, cheating, manipulating, not that stuff - those traits would be obvious). Not sure what it is...wish I knew and could ask some of these people what they see that I don't. (i.e in many instances, I can't ask because they will not be honest with me, some of it is their filter, as much as it my actions/words/attitude).
Ive seen so many co-workers from this one job go on to enormous success, and I feel that I am/was just as smart, talented, focused and creative (in the TV writing sense) as they are. Somehow, this one boss I worked for is very powerful in TV and I know she served as a reference for all these people and yet not for me. I have to feel I did something to deserve this treatment, we did not get along perfectly, but I have to wonder what those folks did that I didn't that made them her ally and why she promoted them and not me.
She has always given me a glowing recommendation as long as it was not in TV. I was the only one of the six people I am referring to that was in TV dept. and yet, they all got into TV from the feature side of our company and now are thriving.
I've had situations like this, Ales, and I don't know what the answer is, I'm afraid. The only thing I wondered is whether it might be possible to ask your boss if there's a particular reason? I don't know enough about what you do to know whether there might be or not, or whether it's possible she thinks you don't want the promotion or something like that, but I did wonder if there might be a review or a possibility to ask for a meeting so that you can talk it through and see if you can get to the bottom of it? Must be very frustrating for you so I hope there's a way forward x
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Can you write and ask your ex-boss what it was that caused her to withhold her recommendation? You could very simply say what you said here--that you are struggling to tune into whether there's any behavior on your part that you are unaware of that may explain why you're having difficulty finding new employment.
And that you're asking her only for candor and an honest brief assessment, for which you will be very grateful.
Nothing to lose and perhaps insight to gain.
Good luck,
Hops
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Thanks Two and Hops. Part of the problem is this is very much in the past, over 10 years ago. I've had other positions including one she gave me a great recommendation, but knowing it would be the wrong job for me. It seems that when its a job she knows I would want and do well at, she can't be reached, but something not right for me, and she is right there with a glowing recommendation. When I worked for her, she was very careful never to say anything negative, she would never say someone is not qualified, she would just rant on about another candidate who is qualified and suggest that person. Before my job ended there, I went to the network and interviewed there, but I know she spoke to the guy I interviewed with and that was that.
I also notice that she is a friend on facebook with everyone from the previous company, but never accepted my friend request. She excluded me on purpose (which I am fine with) which just proved my suspicions that I was excluded from the group of co-workers.
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Ouch. I hear you.
Not exactly analogous, but I was stunned when it sank in that after 8 years helping build a very successful company, I only have one friend from there remaining. Others I interacted, bantered and shared with there for years haven't reached out at all.
Then again, I remember that they have all been under the cloud of Nboss, and there's probably an undercurrent of fear that keeps them from being brave enough to say hello. Even the young CEO whom I championed, listened to, supported, traveled with. Sigh.
I don't think I'll ever expect "normal" relationships in a workplace again, only very very careful professional ones. Seems wiser as the toxicity can always sneak up on me. (Including my own, pushed far enough.)
Hang in,
Hops
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Thanks Hops for your comments and always wise words.
The irony for this boss though is probably that her good deeds towards the people she promoted have resulted in them surpassing her. She must be 55 now, no house, no kids, no husband, no travels, no awards. The "girl" who was 25, 10 years ago is now 35, a homeowner, Co- Exec Producer of an NBC top-10 rated show, married with a new baby, traveled to 15 countries in their first year of marriage and on hiatus. Her promotion was very useful and launched her career to the highest eschelons of the writing profession. There are at least three other such stories of former co-workers that she influenced with similar results (some even met their spouses in the place they were promoted to) and yet her own life is rather small and miserable. She never really helped the people who needed it, including herself.
This morning I decided again that I must have wanted her approval badly, at the time I alternatively cared when I started and didn't care when I saw things happen repetitively over time. I was sending a mixed message. I do think she looked past me for her own reasons, not entirely my actions. But, now that time has passed and things have panned out, maybe I should have cared more about her approval? Dont know. Maybe wanting that approval and simultaneously rebelling against it is a response to being a child of a N. Is it possible to not care about being accepted, but care about being promotable? Can those be different things?
This is where a really good therapist could help to sort this out. I know the past is over and I am equipped to move forward, but I still have doubts.
I decided this morning (when I try to get past something, I try to declare its over)
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Ales, I think this is very insightful:
Maybe wanting that approval and simultaneously rebelling against it is a response to being a child of a N. (http://Maybe wanting that approval and simultaneously rebelling against it is a response to being a child of a N.)
Thank you,
Hops
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Excellent point Hops. Very true.
Today, I got the "thats on you" response. I hate it when I get those...its true and I agree with it, but it invalidates my experience without any credit for what I went through. Basically, this is blaming the rape victim not for the rape, but for being drunk. I'm not responsible for how N Mom treated me, but I am responsible for I responded, (but also not true since I was groomed to respond that way). When people dont get it I just agree with them. No use trying to get them to come to my side on this.
Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes, being independent then having failed at it, the big mistake was not being more independent from an abusive, undermining parent. I did the best I could with what I had at the time and it was still not enough.
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Excellent point Hops. Very true.
Today, I got the "thats on you" response. I hate it when I get those...its true and I agree with it, but it invalidates my experience without any credit for what I went through. Basically, this is blaming the rape victim not for the rape, but for being drunk. I'm not responsible for how N Mom treated me, but I am responsible for I responded, (but also not true since I was groomed to respond that way). When people dont get it I just agree with them. No use trying to get them to come to my side on this.
Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes, being independent then having failed at it, the big mistake was not being more independent from an abusive, undermining parent. I did the best I could with what I had at the time and it was still not enough.
I think "that's on you" is an easy cop out and one of those things that a lot of people say without thinking about the reality behind it. I found that growing up the way I did meant I went out into the adult world with an incredibly screwed up sense of what was normal and what was right and wrong. I had no boundaries, no idea of who I was, had quite possibly spent years in a semi permanent disassociative state. It meant I made an awful lot of mistakes and put myself in perilous situations over and over again. It's an interesting blurring of a boundary, I think, because yes, you're an adult and making your own decisions but actually in a lot of cases you're not, you're responding in a way you've been trained to from birth and a lot of the time you're not actually deciding for yourself at all. It's very hard when you realise you've been treated differently by someone in your adult life and natural to want to know why.
A slightly funny story on the 'that's on you' approach:
In the UK there's a guy called The Naked Rambler. He's an ex marine and, as his title suggests, he walks the length and breadth of the country naked. He gets arrested and imprisoned on a regular basis and more than once has walked out of jail, stripped off as soon as he's got out the door and been re-arrested again immediately. He's quite a character!
There was a documentary about him once and a crew filmed him and his girlfriend, who he'd only met fairly recently, walking naked around the country. He casually mentioned that his 'other' girlfriend would be joining them for the evening. The current girlfriend was very upset as she hadn't know there was more than one and didn't want to share and they filmed him very arrogantly telling her her feelings were her problem, it wasn't down to him to make her feel good, if you feel bad about this well, that's on you.
Next morning the crew film him stomping off in a very grumpy mood refusing to talk to anybody. It turned out that the new girlfriend had arrived - and decided she preferred the other girlfriend to him and spent the night with her and both women ignored him. It was hilarious to watch the girlfriend call out "well if you're upset that's on you" :)
It is frustrating when people don't get it. I must admit I mostly only talk about things on here now; I find real world responses just don't cut it anymore.
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that was a funny story about that guy and his two girlfriends.
I did decide today that those statements can be neutralized, I don't have to feel negative or positive about them. That's a relief. Also have to say that it came from an alpha-male, they are already different than a woman, just the gender difference is one where we are taught to be nice /people pleasers instead of leaders/ go-getters.
Anyway, thanks I appreciate your comments of support.
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About that 20%.
Ive said before that in the last couple of years, I have lost my direction in life and have been aimless. The 20% that has been a problem is the resilience and determination, sometimes the effects of Nism. I always prided myself on my ability to bounce back, to be down but never out and come back and regain my position. It hasn't happened this time, for many reasons, financial loss/independence, bad T, my own loss of direction, lack of emotional support/encouragement from family and an overall feeling of defeat and despair and focusing on the problem has been disempowering.
Im feeling much better, regaining my independence, sense of direction, ignoring the lack of support and feeling a state of resilience and determination by focusing on solutions instead of trying to resolve problems (Nism is a problem that can't be solved, it can only be managed or avoided). Slowly making a comeback and hoping for accelerated success.
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And just today, the strangest thing happened.
My former bad-T published his new book. After five books with NY publishers he had to self publish through Balboa Press, a division of Hay House. Thats kind of a blow to someone already published.
In the Introduction, he talks about a period of profound depression and despair, his kids not speaking to him, his ex-wife married his ex-best friend (after he introduced them at a book signing), his girlfriend kicked him out of her house and he lived in a limbo in a local hotel for months, he was having serious financial problems, and then having emergency hip replacement surgery. His world crashed and burned. Yet he continued to treat patients.
During that time, I was a patient and trying to make sense of my own losses and disappointments and struggles. Truth is, he was in no position to be helping anyone and he certainly did not help me. I have said before that I left more confused and depressed than when I started and felt emotionally and financially exploited. I remember the hip surgery quite well, when he was out of the office for about 3 weeks (thats OK,not knocking that) but its a reference point that tells me I was a patient during a time he probably should not have been treating patients, but he needed the money rather badly.
I always questioned why he was not able to help me, and now I KNOW. I felt a real sense of relief.
It wasn't entirely about me. Sad to say, I lost trust in therapists after this experience and now can see I had good reason to be skeptical about his intentions and abilities.
I emailed him today the following:
I was just given your new book. What a lightning rod that was. Reality is that you were no position to be treating patients when you had your own personal emotional and financial meltdown going on. You emotionally and financially exploited me during that time, and left me more confused and depressed than when I started. You then provided me with a false diagnosis as a defense and in retaliation to my complaints. Nowhere in your book does it mention Integrity or Professional Responsibility. Get some.
Needless to say, I felt very liberated this morning.
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Hi Ales,
I'm glad you have found validation for your disappointing, and indeed damaging, experience with that wounded, inadequate therapist. I can imagine the relief.
I was once greatly damaged by a T who had lost perspective, too. He urged me to hurry up and marry my ex, to "get the anxiety behind you" when I had clearly told him that my inner voice was saying--this is too fast, I feel pressured into this marriage, etc. The reality was that he allowed his fundamentalist mindset to overrule my concern over my wellbeing. I think it literally deafened him to me. I was sexually active, and his religious beliefs caused him to close his ears and pressure me to override the authentic inner voice that was trying to warn me I might be doing something toxic if I submitted to my fiance's pressure.
This T was SO uncomfortable with a single female who was sexually active and unashamed about it that he shoved me into making a decision that was unequivocally BAD for me. I didn't then have the strength to defend my own inner wisdom though I'd tried. It was one of the biggest disasters of my life.
He'd had a sister he labeled "promiscuous" and told me AFTER the wedding night verbal abuse and heartbreaking "honeymoon" that I reminded him of her. (He was way off, just unnerved by my frankness). The kicker/exploitative piece, for me, was that after my entire course of life had been run off the rails, he offered a weak and tepid apology and then SENT ME A BILL. I was outraged enough to write to him, as you have done, to tell him in no uncertain terms that he had actively harmed me, and that I owed him not one cent. And that in fact he owed me a lot more and I never wanted to hear from him again. That worked.
In hindsight, after thinking for a long time about his inner confusion, and the reasons why he was that way, I came to feel that it was irrelevant to keep up the blame. I did blame him and do find him responsible. But...I had to let it go. Eventually, I did. If I saw him on the street now I'd respond with kindness. He wasn't a bad person or intentionally exploitative. He was just dealing with the disconnects in his own mind, and they were destructive to me.
I am really glad you've had this closure, Ales.
Hops